Public Service Broadcasting Charge update

limklad · 27-08-2013 01:36PM

According to the Irish independent. He says

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/rabbitte-no-cavemen-in-the-country-who-dont-watch-television-29530504.html
Communications Minister Pat Rabbitte has insisted that he doesn’t believe there are still “cavemen” in the country who do not watch television.

Mr Rabbitte said he did not believe there was anybody who was not watching television through some form of device.

“I don’t believe that we have cave men in the country. I don’t believe that there are people who don’t watch television and don’t access content on their iPhone or iPad or whatever,” he told RTE's Morning Ireland.
Mr Rabbitte ruled out any exemption from the broadcasting charge for those who said they were not watching television on any device.
"People claiming that they neither have a TV nor do they ever access any public service content, I think one has to look at that somewhat sceptically,” he said.
Under the current TV Licence system – which will be replaced by the broadcasting charge- all households with a television set are required to have a €160 TV licence.
The report on the new charge from Mr Rabbitte’s department said the estimated TV ownership rate is about 96pc “so in the overwhelming majority of homes the legal obligation to pay the current fee exists”.

I believe he open himself to a defamation case. Costing us tax payers/State lots of money to pay more for his blunder and poor mentality and costing badly need services to those who need it.

For Pat Rabbitte and other people within his department, I have this to say. I do have TV and computers and I do pay the license charge.
I have a problem with your mentality. <MOD EDIT: Deleted. No more comments like this please>

He (Pat Rabbitte) is probably told things by his department officials who been told by other managers from RTE/An Post who been told things up through their chain of command. It like "Chinese whispers" where a story can get change and other important information get dumped that the minister should know but no in the instrest of RTE and An Post who collect the licence fee gains financially.

The boggy man or caveman that Pat Rabbitte is chasing are often innocence people who want a different way of life than Pat Rabbitte version of life, who they do not want TV or computers or modern convenience for their own personal reasons. They same people he degrades and calls "caveman".

I do know people who actively do not watch TV or access RTE website or any other TV Broadcaster website. Both women and men. Yes they are in the minority, where the TV inspector man harasses them at homes by poking their head in the window and banging on their peaceful door, who reads and do things together and have less problems than you and me in our modern lifestyle where people believe they can abuse one another and get away with it like on Fair city where abuse is rife and need those abuse stories because of their ratings they get out of it.
These people who do not have TV or computers grow their own food, read books, send their kids to school and do other community driven activities instead of been What I call a caveman in his/her room stuck into from of a TV, getting dumber with the poorer quality of TV broadcasting which is out there.

Five years ago, I hear a elderly woman on the bus who said the tv inspector man poked his head into her window while she was getting dress after her bath. She was horrified, he was gone before she could contact a nearby neighbor, by then he was gone with his tail behind his legs. It was so obvious that She has no electricity wires going to her house, no telephone wires and her house is in the middle of a field with high voltage cable lines passing the back of her property. She said she is regularly harassed by the TV inspector man and feels violated by them and she feels like she is treated like a criminal.
She can get the TV license for free as she is a pensioner, but she says why should she get it when she does not have any TV and is not breaking the law. She buys books and reads them at home, which she loves to do. She has a battery operated LP player which was modified to use the battery when she wants to listen to her favorite opera music which is her only electrical vice. If she is still alive Pat Rabbitte will probably harass her and call her a cave woman.

Back in the 80's near Adare when I was a young child, there was an old woman who previously worked in England and got her pension from england also had no TV or radio. She had the old fireplace in her cottage in a approx one acre field and cooked her food over a traditional open heart fire. Her fire was her only light at nighttime as far as I could see. The only electrical thing that I could see was brought in by her visitors and left with her visitors and that the electric flash lamps. She also read books and newspapers. She brought in her water from a well outside her back door which was a hand pump. She was happy with that lifestyle. <MOD EDIT: Deleted>

Some people like simple things in life and do not want the busy complicated horrible sights brought in by TV land that they do not want to be expose to. I respect them for their lifestyle choice even though it not my choice. Pat Rabbitte the communication minister should respect them too <MOD EDIT: Deleted>
He is chasing the minority 4pc who actively do not want a TV or the service they offer.

This is just another way of getting more people into his ever increasing tax net for the blunder of his poor oversight while in opposition over the government of the day to hold them to account of the crashing of our economy. We have to pay for his blunder who is now punishing those into paying who did not cause this massive failure in the economy which I hold both the FF government and the opposition to account for failing in the duty to the people of Ireland.

RTE should be tightening the belt, they too got out of control with their costs paying out huge amount of money to their personnel .

bringbackbt · 27-08-2013 04:18PM

“I don’t believe that we have cave men in the country. I don’t believe that there are people who don’t watch television and don’t access content on their iPhone or iPad or whatever,” he told RTE's Morning Ireland.

he's either deluded or misinformed.

Note that he says 'watch television ' rather than 'watch rte'. Its almost like he want us to pay to watch TV3 and the like . I was under the impression they were commercial stations....

whitebriar · 27-08-2013 04:33PM

I submitted a comment regarding the lack of rte player on android devices.
That's half or more of the tablet market who presumably will have to pay the charge but unless rte are forced to reverse the 'no android app' cutback,these customers will be unfairly discriminated against.
I would urge others to make that point also.

My submission was acknowledged.

Sam Russell · 27-08-2013 04:49PM

Reading the document, I have come to the conclusion that all decisions have been made and that this 'consultation' is a fraud.

A new body is to be set up to collect the charge. (So more oportunity for someone to shovel Gov money into private pockets).

It will not apply to holiday homes. (Another area to avoid the charge - I know this is my home, but it is my dad's holiday home).

It will be the same as a TV licence without the need to have a TV, payable once a year, with the same renewal date as the existing licence, and the same costly collection method with TV Licence Inspectors.

It will be the occupier who is liable. What about vacant properties?

Businesses will have to pay depending on size. (Why, what does a corner shop have to do with broadcasting?) Good point: Banks will have to pay!

Property tax type measures will apply to defaulters.

In all, why bother asking, because they do not listen, they only transmit. What a mess.

icdg · 27-08-2013 08:10PM

bringbackbt I've had to slightly edit your letter.

There are a number of other people here who have made some comments in relation to a named individual. We might not make any more such comments please, or I may have to issue bans. Play the ball not the man.

Sam Russell wrote: »

A new body is to be set up to collect the charge. (So more oportunity for someone to shovel Gov money into private pockets).

More likely, either the Post Office or Revenue will collect the charge.

It will be the same as a TV licence without the need to have a TV, payable once a year, with the same renewal date as the existing licence, and the same costly collection method with TV Licence Inspectors.

That's the general idea. They are essentially removing the defence of not having a TV. This however for me changes the general principle of the charge - instead of being a tax on having a TV it will now be essentally a poll tax.

Businesses will have to pay depending on size. (Why, what does a corner shop have to do with broadcasting?) Good point: Banks will have to pay!

The idea is to keep businesses who currently have to pay the licence fee within the net. The obvious ones of course are hotels, pubs, and yes banks (who often have CNBC or Bloomberg). What you might not realise is that more businesses than you think may be within the net. If a business has a TV in its canteen - and lots do - then it is liable for the TV licence.

q2ice · 27-08-2013 09:40PM

Ive read all the comments on here and can't believe no-one made this point.
They are saying that more people are watching Tv on devices other than Tv sets. That the new charge is aimed at making these people pay for the media they consume on these devices.

Why not make the content on sites like rte.ie only available to people with television licences. You sign onto the website using your television licence number.
If you dont have a tv licence then you cant access the content.

Sky make content available online but if you dont have a sky subscription then you wont be able to watch anything.
You have to have a netflix account to watch content on netflix.
Why cant rte do the same?

The tv licence covers the cost of broadcasting the media. Once you buy a tv (saorview box, aerial, etc) you dont have any other costs to receive the signal. However if you watch media on a different device you need an internet connection.You have to pay for this. If they are bringing in the psb are they then going to provide free internet to people if they bring in this charge? No.

I dont watch tv nor listen to radio. I have a netflix account, dvds, get news updates from breakingnews.ie and newspaper websites, gaa updates from hoganstand.com and other sports from bbc.co.uk. This new charge is a disgrace and is a way for them to introduce a tax that everyone has to pay - poll tax.

They said that the new charge would be less than the current tv licence. However once its in place whats to stop them from hiking up the cost?
You could say the same about the tv licence however if they raised the tv licence substantially then people could just get rid of their tv to avoid paying the fee. When this new charge is in place then you will have to pay it regardless of what equipment you have. If they jack up the prices you have no way of avoiding the charge.

Sam Russell · 27-08-2013 11:16PM

icdg wrote: »

That's the general idea. They are essentially removing the defence of not having a TV. This however for me changes the general principle of the charge - instead of being a tax on having a TV it will now be essentally a poll tax.

No it is not a poll tax which is levied on the individual and was put in place by a very nasty Conservative PM in order to disenfranchise poor, and therefor Labour, voters. This tax is a household tax. Those with holiday homes, and there rich, are exempted on their second and subsequent homes. (Is Pat Rabitte in favour of this?)

It would help if the liability was put on domestic residences that have an electricity supply (as supplied by ESB Networks) otherwise exempt. Homes that consume less than, say, 10 units per month would be considered vacant and therefore exempt fo that month. Collected by ESB Networks, the cost of collection would be negligible and evasion would be low (as they would cease supply).

Business liability would be determined seperately.

Carawaystick · 28-08-2013 12:21AM

Firstly, I cannot see why any license money is spent on musicians or orchestras. If there is some training issue, fas or the dept of education should fund it. It is elitist and has nothing to do with broadcasting. it's also about 3/4 of what tg4 gets.

Secondly Rabbitte seems to think getting textual news from rte's website is consuming public sector broadcasting, as he outlined on tv3 just now.
The mind boggles

Thirdly, as mentioned earlier, if rte wanted to restrict non-license payers from accessing their digital content, they could.

Fourthly, Other broadcasters seem to provide a much better public service broadcasting, such as Newstalk covering the orange order riots in Dublin some time back, or tv3 covering the drunken dail liquidating ibrc.

Fifthly, There seems to be no consideration of winding up rte and implementing a new public service broadcaster. Irish Water is replacing existing public service workers in councils, so it's not as if this is anathema.
There seems to be no real desire to cut rte's cloth to suit the measure.

Sixthly, there seems to be some looseness with evasion rates. Unless it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law that someone evaded, then a member of cabinet should refrain from prejudicing this. It's funny how bankers and the like who feiced the country up are all give this benefit, but not households who may not have a tv set as defined in law.

Seventhly, there seems to be a regressive element in this, where rich people who have two houses, only have to pay once. It reminds me of the fact the lpt is only levied on the first acre of your mansion or castle....

The Cush · 28-08-2013 12:33AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Collected by ESB Networks, the cost of collection would be negligible and evasion would be low (as they would cease supply).

They'd probably take a pretty large fee just the same for administering the charge for the Dept of Comms just like An Post but without the TV Licence inspectors.

It might be cheaper to allow the Revenue to do the job based on the ESB's meter database and Household Charge database.

The Cush · 28-08-2013 12:43AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Those with holiday homes, and there rich, are exempted on their second and subsequent homes. (Is Pat Rabitte in favour of this?)

Carawaystick wrote: »

there seems to be a regressive element in this, where rich people who have two houses, only have to pay once. It reminds me of the fact the lpt is only levied on the first acre of your mansion or castle....

Don't understand the reason for this? I was surprised to read this in the consultation. Is this Fine Gael's input into the consultation/legislation?

How will the owner declare the second/third/etc. property as a holiday home as opposed to a rental property?

nacho66 · 28-08-2013 08:41AM

I have a question: Does Sky pay RTE or RTE pays Sky for presence on Sky platform?

The Cush · 28-08-2013 10:23AM

nacho66 wrote: »

I have a question: Does Sky pay RTE or RTE pays Sky for presence on Sky platform?

We're not exactly sure what the financial arrangements are between BSkyB and RTÉ and the other Irish channels.

RTÉ must offer its channels to Sky, UPC etc. and Irish based cable companies like UPC must carry as per the Broadcasting Act. Sky as a UK based company doesn't have to carry the Irish channels but would be at a big disadvantage if it didn't.

UPC said in a consultation submission that it doesn't charge for the carriage of the Irish channels so I'd assume Sky's contracts with the Irish channels are similar.

BSkyB's price list (http://corporate.sky.com/documents/pdf/20c24d2e1c62406594e1a79de5f917db/bskyb_and_sssl_published_price_list_effective_1_july_2012.pdf) shows the charges applicable to the Irish channels but it has been discussed here on boards that Sky probably pays these charges to have the Irish channels on its platform.

whitebriar · 28-08-2013 10:42AM

whitebriar wrote: »

I submitted a comment regarding the lack of rte player on android devices.
That's half or more of the tablet market who presumably will have to pay the charge but unless rte are forced to reverse the 'no android app' cutback,these customers will be unfairly discriminated against.
I would urge others to make that point also.

My submission was acknowledged.

Android app is now live ,so my submission is retired.

I thought it was openly said by rte when they went on sky that sky were funding them being on,mutual needs and all that.

Sam Russell · 28-08-2013 12:31PM

The Cush wrote: »

Don't understand the reason for this? I was surprised to read this in the consultation. Is this Fine Gael's input into the consultation/legislation?

How will the owner declare the second/third/etc. property as a holiday home as opposed to a rental property?

Exempting holiday homes for the same reason they exempted mobile homes from the proerty tax. Self interest, and lobbying.

If there is a resident, they pay, but how do they distinguish a temporary resident from a permanent resident? We are back to fudge and evasion again.

Evasion is a real problem as could be observed by looking at the TV licence thread. This approach does not tackle it in a fair and reasonable manner.

I would think that there are very few homes that have electricity but do not have a TV of any type. Perhaps I am wrong, but there are a lot of people who do not have a TV licence.

STB · 28-08-2013 01:44PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

Exempting holiday homes for the same reason they exempted mobile homes from the proerty tax. Self interest, and lobbying.

If there is a resident, they pay, but how do they distinguish a temporary resident from a permanent resident? We are back to fudge and evasion again.

Evasion is a real problem as could be observed by looking at the TV licence thread. This approach does not tackle it in a fair and reasonable manner.

I would think that there are very few homes that have electricity but do not have a TV of any type. Perhaps I am wrong, but there are a lot of people who do not have a TV licence.

This is the reason its being brought in. TV Licence Evasion and the money that is spent on inspectors to chase down those that do not want to pay. Appparently, at least 1 in 4 dont pay for the TV licence, so if it goes up each year those grinning idiots telling you that they dont pay are taking more money out of your pocket.

nacho66 · 28-08-2013 03:12PM

STB wrote: »

This is the reason its being brought in. TV Licence Evasion and the money that is spent on inspectors to chase down those that do not want to pay. Appparently, at least 1 in 4 dont pay for the TV licence, so if it goes up each year those grinning idiots telling you that they dont pay are taking more money out of your pocket.

Drop TV license, drop inspectors and lawyers and pass money saved onto RTE. If not enough, ask RTE addicts for donations.

You want to ride a bus, you buy a ticket. You want to watch RTE, you buy access - concept sounds simple, doesn't? It works with public transport

7upfree · 28-08-2013 05:52PM

STB wrote: »

This is the reason its being brought in. TV Licence Evasion and the money that is spent on inspectors to chase down those that do not want to pay. Appparently, at least 1 in 4 dont pay for the TV licence, so if it goes up each year those grinning idiots telling you that they dont pay are taking more money out of your pocket.

No - those grinning idiots in Montrose are doing that. Make RTE PPV. That will solve it. It is complete, unadulterated tripe of the highest order.

The Cush · 28-08-2013 09:58PM

The consultation document references several European countries that have reviewed their TV Licence systems in recent times

Germany introduced a household based broadcasting fee which came into effect on 1 January 2013 and Switzerland is currently passing legislation to introduce a household based fee. Finland and Iceland, in contrast, have moved to fund PSB via direct taxation.

...

In Finland by contrast there is a broadcasting tax – a dedicated, ring‐fenced tax for the specific purpose of funding PSBs, which is paid by individual taxpayers and also by businesses.

Since the 1st Jan last every German household pays €17.98 per month (€215.76 per year) and is payable regardless of equipment in a household or radio/TV usage
http://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/buerge...index_ger.html

Both Finland and Iceland collect the broadcasting fee through their taxation systems

- In Finland since the 1st Jan all adults pay a ring-fenced public broadcasting tax, the Yle-Vero/Yle-Tax (€0-€140 per year depending on income) and it applies to every adult in the household and regardless of whether they own television set or watch TV
http://www.lvm.fi/uutinen/-/view/4136359
http://www.vero.fi/fi-FI/Henkiloasia...aminen/Ylevero

- In Iceland since 2009 every taxpayer between 16 and 70 pay a fixed broadcasting tax of approx. €107 per year regardless of whether they use television and radio
http://ruv.is/um-ruv/afnotadeild

7upfree · 29-08-2013 08:46PM

The Cush wrote: »

The consultation document references several European countries that have reviewed their TV Licence systems in recent times

Since the 1st Jan last every German household pays €17.98 per month (€215.76 per year) and is payable regardless of equipment in a household or radio/TV usage
http://www.rundfunkbeitrag.de/buerge...index_ger.html

Both Finland and Iceland collect the broadcasting fee through their taxation systems

- In Finland since the 1st Jan all adults pay a ring-fenced public broadcasting tax, the Yle-Vero/Yle-Tax (€0-€140 per year depending on income) and it applies to every adult in the household and regardless of whether they own television set or watch TV
http://www.lvm.fi/uutinen/-/view/4136359
http://www.vero.fi/fi-FI/Henkiloasia...aminen/Ylevero

- In Iceland since 2009 every taxpayer between 16 and 70 pay a fixed broadcasting tax of approx. €107 per year regardless of whether they use television and radio
http://ruv.is/um-ruv/afnotadeild

Fairly easy to see the road this is heading down.:mad:

OldRio · 30-08-2013 10:16AM

Tax tax and more tax.
It starting to get me down.

ftakeith · 30-08-2013 05:39PM

its the tv licence

if you have mobile phone, laptop, I-pad you are watching tv

as a freesat/saorview only viewer, its great value mostly

OldRio · 30-08-2013 10:49PM

ftakeith wrote: »

its the tv licence

if you have mobile phone, laptop, I-pad you are watching tv

as a freesat/saorview only viewer, its great value mostly

and if you don't watch tv?

and as for value?

Fuzzy Clam · 30-08-2013 11:28PM

ftakeith wrote: »

its the tv licence

if you have mobile phone, laptop, I-pad you are watching tv

as a freesat/saorview only viewer, its great value mostly

I don't watch TV on either my PC or mobile phone. No I-Pad.
Rarely watch Saorview. Would quite gladly get rid of it if doing so meant I didn't have to pay the tax. Freesat is not Irish.

STB · 31-08-2013 12:17PM

7upfree wrote: »

No - those grinning idiots in Montrose are doing that. Make RTE PPV. That will solve it. It is complete, unadulterated tripe of the highest order.

No. People who dont want to pay are doing that.

Believe it or not Public Service Broadcasting is not a concept exclusive to Ireland.

Following on from The Cush's post above, I am pretty certain that the Greeks have the tax/fee/call it what you want added automatically to the electricity bill.

Your response is typical of the people who don't want to pay and try to blame everyone else that these measures have to be introduced. People who openly boast of not paying the TV licence fee piss me off as if it does go up because of evasion it is those people who are making it so.

OldRio wrote: »

Tax tax and more tax.
It starting to get me down.

It simply replaces the TV Licence system which is and has been open to abuse over the years. It also costs money to collect (apx €12m+ per year). The amount that an individual pays may come down now that the evaders are brought into the fold.

Sam Russell · 31-08-2013 01:44PM

There is an element of truth in that RTE will spend all they get. If all the evaders were to pay, then the extra money will get added to the pot and spent one way or another - extra shows, extra money spent on production, extra pay for presenters or management, etc. etc.

Saorview is cheaper that analogue to broadcast, but no talk of a reduction on the licence. However such charges are small potatoes compared with rights and wages.

Putting the charge on the electricity is the most obvious way of collecting the money as it would be impossible to avoid and cost nothing extra to collect. ESB Networks are the only supplier of electricity (despite many companies charging for it).

Maybe there could be a surcharge for those using UPC, Sky and other TV providers. If people are paying €100 per month or so, what would a few extra euros be?

Or maybe, adding a surcharge to the broadband? Or a tiny levy on each text? With a charge on a service, it cannot be argued that the payer does not use the service.

They need to think outside the box!

OldRio · 31-08-2013 02:35PM

STB wrote: »

No. People who dont want to pay are doing that.

Believe it or not Public Service Broadcasting is not a concept exclusive to Ireland.

Following on from The Cush's post above, I am pretty certain that the Greeks have the tax/fee/call it what you want added automatically to the electricity bill.

Your response is typical of the people who don't want to pay and try to blame everyone else that these measures have to be introduced. People who openly boast of not paying the TV licence fee piss me off as if it does go up because of evasion it is those people who are making it so.

It simply replaces the TV Licence system which is and has been open to abuse over the years. It also costs money to collect (apx €12m+ per year). The amount that an individual pays may come down now that the evaders are brought into the fold.

Ah now, you were doing fine until you tried to be sarcastic.

STB · 31-08-2013 05:28PM

OldRio wrote: »

[/B]

Ah now, you were doing fine until you tried to be sarcastic.

I wasn't even attempting to be sarcastic OldRio.

There will always be people who don't want to pay for anything. The amount of people that come on to these boards claiming I don't have a TV etc is a constant source of amusement to me.

OldRio · 31-08-2013 06:26PM

I was commenting on the part I put in bold.

7upfree · 31-08-2013 07:31PM

STB wrote: »

There will always be people who don't want to pay for anything.

I agree with you. But there are people like me who pay their way. I, for one, take exception to being forced to pay for this rubbish. It's about time we were given the choice to do so. The technology is there. Use it.

The Cush · 31-08-2013 09:36PM

STB wrote: »

I am pretty certain that the Greeks have the tax/fee/call it what you want added automatically to the electricity bill.

The Greek TV Licence is suspended for the moment following the shutting down of ERT.

The annual fee was €51.60 and collected via the electricity bill from every electricity account whether they had a TV or not.

News broadcasts have restarted from the new public service broadcaster EDT recently - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23777246

Public Service Broadcasting Charge update

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