Legalization of drugs how would it work ?

end of the road · 26-08-2013 04:27PM

kneemos wrote: »

You just have to look at happened with the Head Shops recently to see what happens when drugs are legalised,queues down the street every weekend night.

better then them going to dealers which possibly a lot who used those shops are doing now to get the same what were legal highs

kneemos wrote: »

Legal means acceptable

only for idiots, if you decide to take something you usually wouldn't because it suddenly becomes legal and something happens good enough for you

kneemos wrote: »

which they aren't.

why aren't they? because their dangerous? because they can be addictive? because they can kill people? yet we still allow the consumption of alcohol (which i enjoy myself, but i'm not going to become some sort of moral guardian over recreational drugs when i take one myself all though my drug of choice happens to be legal)

end of the road · 26-08-2013 04:47PM

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

Illegal drugs are illegal for a reason. I say this as someone who was addicted to hash, love ecstasy, thinks coke is ****ing bollocks butt knows people who have ruined themselves on it, and has a serious disrespect for Bill Hicks devotees.

thats one thing thats always trotted out, howeveer its invalid as the supposed reasons their illegal can happen with legal drugs

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

Hash is a gateway drug.

for some possibly, for others its just something to enjoy the odd time like alcohol

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

If you disagree, you are 15 years old. Mentally at least.

really? would it not be that they recognise that while some may move on to harder drugs that others won't and may infact get board eventually and get off it no?

shleedance · 26-08-2013 04:56PM

Having smoked hash, I can assure you it is not a gateway drug. I feel no urge to take other drugs.

It's the people who are using drugs who are the problem, not the drugs themselves. Some have addictive personalities and can't handle it, for example.

Staff Infection · 26-08-2013 04:59PM

A controlled legal drug market that is regulated and taxed would be my preference.

Have drugs sold in separate dispensaries to discourage mixing drugs, so pubs sell alcohol, cannabis dispensaries sells cannabis, MDMA dispensaries sell MDMA etc. etc.
Require dispensaries selling the drugs to test, verify and clearly display the quality, purity, strength and recommended dosage for each drug on sale.

Set up a drug ID card system for anyone that wants to buy drugs that states their age and keeps a weekly stock of how much they buy. Set upper purchase limits for each drug so say 10-grams of cannabis per week and basically you're card won't work to allow the sale if you try exceed the weekly limit. Also require dispensaries to ID each person per sale, that way if you have no ID you can't buy anything. The limits would prevent people buying loads to sell on the black market.

Tax the industry at all levels (growing, production, distribution to dispensaries, sale) and use a portion of that tax to set up organisations extolling the virtues of moderation in a similar guise to say the drink aware promotions so people are aware of their limits.

Finally use some more of the tax take to support and direct users with problematic use to rehabilitation services.

Also learn from what has happened in the alcohol and tobacco industries and right from the start ban any drug advertising, sport sponsorship etc. and set strict closing times for dispensaries like the 10pm closing time for offies.

Basically ensure that any drug use (including alcohol or tobacco) is not endorsed at all by government. Instead state that drugs are just managed in such a way by the government that they can make tax instead of criminal organisations making money while trying to ensure the drugs themselves are not mixed with anything harmful to minimize harm. The secondary aims would be that users are made aware of any pros or cons while also being educated on the safest methods of use and the services available to them if any problems arise.

Finally to answer an earlier question, would I let my adult children use drugs? Not currently as I wouldn't trust any drugs bought from street dealers. If there was a regulated market where they could go into a shop, educate themselves, check they weren't adultered and ask questions regarding use versus abuse etc. then yes I would let them use them providing they educated themselves first and were responsible in their use. It would be the same with drink, I wouldn't let them touch poitin but would have no problem with them going to a pub.

kneemos · 26-08-2013 04:59PM

shleedance wrote: »

Having smoked hash, I can assure you it is not a gateway drug. I feel no urge to take other drugs.

It's the people who are using drugs who are the problem, not the drugs themselves. Some have addictive personalities and can't handle it, for example.

So drugs are a problem for some people?

Staff Infection · 26-08-2013 05:07PM

kneemos wrote: »

So drugs are a problem for some people?

Yes they are a problem for some people, who should receive help. Those that drugs aren't a problem for should be allowed live their lives in peace.

If you have a drink problem here people will suggest you go to the AA or rehab to get help.
If you have a drug problem people will suggest you get locked up, that is helping nobody in the long run. Drug addiction etc. should be treated as a medical problem like alcohol addiction, not as a criminal problem.

If there was a legal taxed market a portion of the taxes could fund rehab problems for those with problematic use and fund organisations suggesting moderate use for those without problematic use.

shleedance · 26-08-2013 05:08PM

Yes, same way gambling, alcoholism etc. is a problem for some people. Some people can't handle it.

If you're responsible, most drugs will be fine. Same way you're responsible with drink and such.

kneemos · 26-08-2013 05:18PM

shleedance wrote: »

Yes, same way gambling, alcoholism etc. is a problem for some people. Some people can't handle it.

If you're responsible, most drugs will be fine. Same way you're responsible with drink and such.

Surly it's better to limit the availability of yet more damaging substances then.
Prevention better than cure.

Billy86 · 26-08-2013 05:19PM

Also, just some food for thought for some people who seem fine with alcohol (and might not be 'fine with' but are not up in arms over nicotine), but have issues with currently illegal drugs on the bass of them illegal 'for a reason' - e.g. being more dangerous and more addictive.

I'll be honest, the LSD one shocked me.

Staff Infection · 26-08-2013 05:23PM

kneemos wrote: »

Surly it's better to limit the availability of yet more damaging substances then.
Prevention better than cure.

The thing is making it illegal doesn't limit it's availability it just creates a niche market so criminals can make a tax free fortune, it also makes it easier for kids to buy drugs as dealers don't ask for ID so sell to them as well.

Billy86 · 26-08-2013 05:29PM

Staff Infection wrote: »

The thing is making it illegal doesn't limit it's availability it just creates a niche market so criminals can make a tax free fortune, it also makes it easier for kids to buy drugs as dealers don't ask for ID so sell to them as well.

This couldn't be any more true, and it doesn't matter where you're from (well, maybe in extremely rural areas). When I was 15 I could get my hands on grass, pills, coke, acid or various other things in a couple of hours if I wanted. Not in a 'wandering around town trying to find someone' sense either... 3, 4 or 5 phone-calls is all it would take.

Billy86 · 26-08-2013 05:31PM

shleedance wrote: »

Yes, same way gambling, alcoholism etc. is a problem for some people. Some people can't handle it.

If you're responsible, most drugs will be fine. Same way you're responsible with drink and such.

Exactly, and it would be very easy to limit by use of some form of rationing system and 'card' that tracked your consumption (being a necessity for any purchase). In a regulated market, the huge profits would easily be able to fund a system like this without touching the margins much at all, to boot.

milltown · 26-08-2013 06:22PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Also, just some food for thought for some people who seem fine with alcohol (and might not be 'fine with' but are not up in arms over nicotine), but have issues with currently illegal drugs on the bass of them illegal 'for a reason' - e.g. being more dangerous and more addictive.

I'll be honest, the LSD one shocked me.

Are you sure you're reading it right then?

The x axis is the ratio of active dose to lethal dose, so for LSD the graph is telling you that 0.001, or one thousandth, of the lethal dose is an active dose and that it has very low potential for dependence.

Heroin on the other hand needs one fifth of the lethal dose to make an active dose, and is very addictive.

I don't know where the data for the chart came from but I have never heard of a case of somebody dying from an LSD overdose (thinking they can fly or walk through fire are different things IMO) but I would expect that the lethal doses are LD50s. The dose at which 50% of people would be expected to die. These are usually educated estimates.

ScumLord · 26-08-2013 06:31PM

milltown wrote: »

I don't know where the data for the chart came from but I have never heard of a case of somebody dying from an LSD overdose

LSD might not kill you too easily but it can make a dogs dinner of your mind if you take too much of it and it's easy to take to much of it.

If people want to try hallucinogens they should stick to shrooms. It's harder to overdose cause it tastes like crap and it's just overall a better (happier) more natural high, humans have been consuming shrooms probably longer than they've been praying to god.

milltown · 26-08-2013 06:39PM

ScumLord wrote: »

LSD might not kill you too easily but it can make a dogs dinner of your mind if you take too much of it and it's easy to take to much of it.

If people want to try hallucinogens they should stick to shrooms. It's harder to overdose cause it tastes like crap and it's just overall a better (happier) more natural high, humans have been consuming shrooms probably longer than they've been praying to god.

I'm not disputing that. I was pointing out that the poster seemed to have misunderstood what the graph was saying. The problem with most "chemical" drugs is getting the dose right. Your coke or heroin could be anything from 0% to 100% pure and your ecstacy pill could have anywhere from zero to 300mg of MDMA in it.

ScumLord · 26-08-2013 06:45PM

milltown wrote: »

Your coke or heroin could be anything from 0% to 100% pure and your ecstacy pill could have anywhere from zero to 300mg of MDMA in it.

Not in Ireland.

Your coke will be anywhere from zero to 30% pure, same with your heroin and pills. God knows what's in them but it's not more of what you want.

Ireland seems particularly bad for watering down and overcharging. The criminal element is making a fortune in this recession. The price of drugs is increasing all the time, it makes no economic sense in the current climate.

shleedance · 26-08-2013 06:53PM

kneemos wrote: »

Surly it's better to limit the availability of yet more damaging substances then.
Prevention better than cure.

Yet tobacco and alcohol is clearly allowed, despite being quite destructive when it comes to some people. In fact, I would put those two beyond the level of even some higher-level drugs.

Also, tackling drug-related crime would be far easier when drugs are legalised. Why? The illegal drug trade would completely disappear, leaving the gardi more resources to do more productive stuff.

_Kaiser_ · 26-08-2013 07:05PM

shleedance wrote: »

If drugs become legal, there will have to be an age restriction, same as alcohol and tobacco.

Yea, cause that works really well to stop kids getting their hands on it :rolleyes:

I guess it's a sign of the age group in AH that those who are advocating this are the younger crowd who probably already use these "harmless" drugs whereas the rest of us are older and have seen the consequences these can do to users, family, communities - all of which has very little to do with whether it's legal or not, but what happens to users as a result.

Yes I have social drink on the rare occasions we get everyone together these days, don't smoke (my mother and sister do though so I'm ok with their choice - they're not likely to assault someone or break into their house for money to buy their next pack of 20) and I've never done any (other) drugs.. "harmless" or not.

But then I've also never been concerned about being "cool" or with the "in crowd" and grew up pretty fast so maybe that's why too.

shleedance · 26-08-2013 07:09PM

Yea, cause that works really well to stop kids getting their hands on it

The rest is down to the responsibility of parents. Same way you wouldn't let your kid play an 18+ game or 18+ film.

This isn't a matter of appearing "cool", it's a matter of freedom of choice. I'm not exactly young either, so don't generalise. Probably only smoked hash literally twice in the entire year - similar reasons to why you have a "social drink".

People need to learn how to take personal responsibilities rather than trying to ban everything.

ScumLord · 26-08-2013 07:15PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Yea, cause that works really well to stop kids getting their hands on it :rolleyes:

It wouldn't stop every kid from getting their hands on drugs but it would put up some restriction were currently there is none. A shop selling drugs isn't going to risk it's business by selling to kids just like an off licence isn't going to risk it's business selling drink to kids, there's no need for it. Legalising drugs will make it harder for kids to get drugs.

I guess it's a sign of the age group in AH that those who are advocating this are the younger crowd who probably already use these "harmless" drugs whereas the rest of us are older and have seen the consequences these can do to users, family, communities - all of which has very little to do with whether it's legal or not, but what happens to users as a result.

I'm in my 30s, I've been smoking for 14 years I have had a job that whole time. I'm talking from experience. Having been in my twenties during the boom and seen the chaos drink causes and still causes there's no way anyone can tell me that drugs like cannabis and ecstasy are more dangerous than alcohol. It's simply not true.

I've never done any (other) drugs.. "harmless" or not.

So really you know next to nothing about drugs and are basing your entire opinion on media hysteria?

_Kaiser_ · 26-08-2013 07:21PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It wouldn't stop every kid from getting their hands on drugs but it would put up some restriction were currently there is none. A shop selling drugs isn't going to risk it's business by selling to kids just like an off licence isn't going to risk it's business selling drink to kids, there's no need for it. Legalising drugs will make it harder for kids to get drugs.

Not really, in the same way as kids can get alcohol without too much hassle now by either sending in older (looking) kids or getting brothers etc to buy it for them

I'm in my 30s, I've been smoking for 14 years I have had a job that whole time. I'm talking from experience. Having been in my twenties during the boom and seen the chaos drink causes and still causes there's no way anyone can tell me that drugs like cannabis and ecstasy are more dangerous than alcohol. It's simply not true.

I actually agree with you regarding the effects of alcohol abuse - but the Irish are known to have a drink problem. Not to say that EVERYONE who has a drink is an alcoholic, but there's enough who are (albeit perhaps functioning alcoholics) that the reputation is sadly well deserved.

So really you know next to nothing about drugs and are basing your entire opinion on media hysteria?

I grew up in a lower working class north Dublin area and saw first hand over several generations of kids/young adults the harm caused by drug use/abuse.

I don't have to partake myself to recognize the problems it causes no more than I need to break into someone's house and assault them to recognize the damage that causes.

Fighting Irish · 26-08-2013 07:29PM

I have smoked weed every night for the past 6 months, in that time i've never had a bad nights sleep, i'm paying a drug dealer 50e every 2 weeks, i'd happily pay the government the same money(even a little more) if i could get it legally and i knew for sure what i was getting

edit: i have ms btw

ScumLord · 26-08-2013 07:33PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not really, in the same way as kids can get alcohol without too much hassle now by either sending in older (looking) kids or getting brothers etc to buy it for them

It's still not easy, they have to go through all sorts of rigmarole and try to find someone who will get them drink. In most cases when their sending in an older friend they're not too far off the drinking age themselves. It's not as easy as going to your local drug dealer.

I grew up in a lower working class north Dublin area and saw first hand over several generations of kids/young adults the harm caused by drug use/abuse.

I grew up in a small town in the west of Ireland, people in the town use drugs, there's very few problems when people are on drugs on a night out here, when everyone's pissed chaos ensues. What you're describing in Dublin is socioeconomic, they're city problems not drug problems, drugs are just a symptom of underlying problems with cities.

I don't have to partake myself to recognize the problems it causes no more than I need to break into someone's house and assault them to recognize the damage that causes.

That's not really a fair comparison, it tries to associate drug use with everything bad and violence. A better comparison would be viewing any social group from the outside. You're depending on hearsay and wilful misinterpretation of a group or activity your group doesn't like. You might know a lot about rocket science, but until you start actually working on rockets you can't fully appreciate the work involved.

kneemos · 26-08-2013 07:41PM

Seems they're legalising canabis in Colorado at the beginning of next year,medicinal canabis is already available and according to the documentary the other night kids are smoking it during school and their lunch break.
It also showed a grower gearing up to more than double his output.So it should be interesting to see what happens.

ScumLord · 26-08-2013 07:44PM

kneemos wrote: »

Seems they're legalising canabis in Colorado at the beginning of next year,medicinal canabis is already available and according to the documentary the other night kids are smoking it during school and their lunch break.

I watched a documentary where some guy was saying the same thing. I have a hard time believing him, he said kids were reaching into people's back garden and stealing leafs off plants. Of course what he didn't know is that the leaf contains no THC and won't get you high. They might as well be smoking dandelions. Seems more like scaremongering than anything.

Staff Infection · 26-08-2013 07:52PM

Just prior to alcohol prohibition in 1920's America similar points were made regarding the damage alcohol can cause not just on the user but their families as well. Domestic violence, car accidents and brawls were some of the possible outcomes of alcohol abuse the government of the day mentioned. So they banned it but found all those problems remained along with new problems such as methanol in bootleg moonshine poisoning drinkers.

Essentially banning it didn't solve anything and added new problems. It was easier to manage and work with when re-legalised, regulated and taxed.

Legalising drugs won't solve all drug related issues overnight but it would take revenue from criminals and start a long long process of re-education that could lead to a more mature measured approach to drugs and addition in general.

Moderation and control are key. Having a drink, smoke, etc. at the end of a weeks work is grand but I agree we need to end the notion that getting out of your tree regularly is acceptable because as a nation we tend to do most things in excess.

SeanW · 26-08-2013 11:14PM

kneemos wrote: »

You just have to look at happened with the Head Shops recently to see what happens when drugs are legalised,queues down the street every weekend night.
Legal means acceptable which they aren't.

I'm sure a lot of people said the same thing about alcohol in the 1920s. Didn't change the fact that alcohol prohibition was a stupid, counterproductive policy on every level. And that the same is true today; at least where cannibis, mushrooms etc is concerned.

Billy86 · 27-08-2013 04:52PM

milltown wrote: »

Are you sure you're reading it right then?

The x axis is the ratio of active dose to lethal dose, so for LSD the graph is telling you that 0.001, or one thousandth, of the lethal dose is an active dose and that it has very low potential for dependence.

Heroin on the other hand needs one fifth of the lethal dose to make an active dose, and is very addictive.

I don't know where the data for the chart came from but I have never heard of a case of somebody dying from an LSD overdose (thinking they can fly or walk through fire are different things IMO) but I would expect that the lethal doses are LD50s. The dose at which 50% of people would be expected to die. These are usually educated estimates.

Oh no, that is what I meant - I just don't know a lot about LSD so expected it be to higher with the boogeyman stories the media likes to throw about. I do agree with Scumlord though, that it likely quite easy to turn your brain to utter mush to it.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not really, in the same way as kids can get alcohol without too much hassle now by either sending in older (looking) kids or getting brothers etc to buy it for them

It's actually probably easier for teens to get their hands on illegal drugs than it is alcohol, to be honest.

More 'affordable' too, in the sense that your average 15 year old might only have a few Euros to scratch together at any given time. You can't buy booze 'on tick' and over the next few days hope to source the money to pay for it.

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I have smoked weed every night for the past 6 months, in that time i've never had a bad nights sleep, i'm paying a drug dealer 50e every 2 weeks, i'd happily pay the government the same money(even a little more) if i could get it legally and i knew for sure what i was getting

edit: i have ms btw

Yeah, I've had band insomnia since I was a kid so I know what you mean here - used to use it for the same reason, but I've a shocking addictive personality, so I'd find myself going through closer to €150-200 a fortnight, rather than just the one bag. Shame too, only takes a Berocca and strong, strong coffee (another drug so!

) in the morning to shake off the grogginess. And it is far less dangerous, and far less addictive, than legal sleep aids (we're talking prescription here - the over the counter stuff literally does nothing for me).

ScumLord wrote: »

I watched a documentary where some guy was saying the same thing. I have a hard time believing him, he said kids were reaching into people's back garden and stealing leafs off plants. Of course what he didn't know is that the leaf contains no THC and won't get you high. They might as well be smoking dandelions. Seems more like scaremongering than anything.

It's all a pile of Reefer Madness!

hfallada · 27-08-2013 04:58PM

kneemos wrote: »

Seems they're legalising canabis in Colorado at the beginning of next year,medicinal canabis is already available and according to the documentary the other night kids are smoking it during school and their lunch break.
It also showed a grower gearing up to more than double his output.So it should be interesting to see what happens.

Watch American weed with the same police officer and he is seriously thick. He kept saying illegally sold canabis was the problem. But thought they should still close the medical dispensaries anyway. And that bcc documentary also said the illegally sold weed was the problem.

Mike 1972 · 28-08-2013 01:27PM

lkionm wrote: »

It would be a great solution to the jobs initiative.

Now every drug lushing scumbag is a sole trader. e.

TBH I doubt that the majority of the individuals currently involved in the supply chain would have much interest in going legit.

Rationing what an individual consumer can buy makes little sense and amounts to too much nanny state interference. We dont do the same for alcohol

If supply were legal there would still be a black market (albeit much smaller than at present which is the whole point really) The size of the black market would be determined by how restrictive the legal regieme was and how heavily it were taxed.

Legalization of drugs how would it work ?

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