Why can nobody speak Irish?

An Coilean · 24-08-2013 05:42PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The Cumann Gaelach would be so intimidating though for a beginner like me.

Believe it or not, that some people might not have fluent Irish has occured to them before. Some of the events they organise are directed specifically at biginners/learners.

lol I'm sick to the back teeth of caliní that's the last thing that will persuade me atm.

Plenty of Buachaillí too if thats what your into.

You never know, they might run An Stail Gaelach again.

An Coilean · 24-08-2013 05:55PM

Dindsenchas wrote: »

However,just looking at the declining numbers of 'native' speakers in the Gaeltacht areas isn't an indicator of the decline of the language within Ireland as a whole.

Well actually that map does not show that the number of Native speakers in the Gaeltacht is declining.
They have been holding quite steady for 30 years or more.

What that map shows is the decline in the number of Gaeltacht areas where the majority of the population speaks Irish as their primary language. This is not a result of less people speaking Irish in these areas but instead is mainly a byproduct of the celtic tiger which saw an influx of English speakers from outside the Gaeltacht buying homes in these areas, especially in the Galway Gaeltacht in and close to Galway city.

It should be noted that the map marked 2007 is actually based on a study of the language in the Gaeltacht which used the 2002 census as a primary source of Information. That study was updated twice since using the two following censuses, both of which actually recorded slight improvements in the state of the language in the Gaeltacht (The original study came as a bit of a wake up call in some areas)
A fully updated version of the original study with the latest information is due out later this year and I expect it to show continued if slow improvement in the overall picture in the Gaeltacht.

BognarRegis · 24-08-2013 07:26PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Well actually that map does not show that the number of Native speakers in the Gaeltacht is declining.
They have been holding quite steady for 30 years or more.

While the general population of the country has increased, meaning that native Irish-speaking is in effect declining.

At the same time, increasingly desperate measures are being taken to impose Irish on the general population and force its use in areas where it has not been spoken for hundreds of years. - another clue as to the truth of the matter.

Then look at the absence of any Irish language media other than that subsidised by the state.

It's on artificial life-support in a state-run nursing home. It's not a living, working language in the sense of English, German or French or Spanish, all of which are thriving.

Aineoil · 24-08-2013 07:37PM

It's on artificial life-support in a state-run nursing home. It's not a living, working language in the sense of English, German or French or Spanish, all of which are thriving.

The bean an tí's around the country will love this.

I know it should be "mná na dtithe" but......

Rubeter · 24-08-2013 07:50PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

While the general population of the country has increased, meaning that native Irish-speaking is in effect declining.

Brilliant logic, if the population in the rest of the world increases faster than the population here increases, then the population here is in effect decreasing even though it is increasing. lol

That makes as much sense as dividing crazy by zero.

BognarRegis · 24-08-2013 08:25PM

Aineoil wrote: »

The bean an tí's around the country will love this.

I know it should be "mná na dtithe" but......

A small, cottage industry supported indirectly by the mandatory Irish regulations. Hardly a significant part of the economy or mainstream culture.

In the real world, we speak English. And, I suspect, so do the money-grubbing bean a ti.

poppyvally · 24-08-2013 08:38PM

Conway635 wrote: »

Let me tell you about how I was taught Irish.

One teacher, a very elderly priest, used every class to lecture us on 800 years of British opression, including giving us details of how (he said) British soilders would disembowel pregnant irish girls and force them to eat their babies before leaving them to bleed to death.

This was every class. We would get about 5 minutes of teaching before something would start him off on the evils of the British.

Another teacher, when we were older, was a fairly savage discplinarian, and, quite literally, tried to beat the language into us.

Neither approach gave me a fondness for Irish.

C635

The christian brothers taught EVERYTHINGIn Irish including Latin. ALL except... guess?... religion!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 24-08-2013 09:03PM

Aineoil wrote: »

It's on artificial life-support in a state-run nursing home. It's not a living, working language in the sense of English, German or French or Spanish, all of which are thriving.

The bean an tí's around the country will love this.

I know it should be "mná na dtithe" but......

It would probably depend on what possession of the Bean an Ti you're referring to.... :pac:

Iwasfrozen · 24-08-2013 10:11PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Believe it or not, that some people might not have fluent Irish has occured to them before. Some of the events they organise are directed specifically at biginners/learners.

I suppose, ah who knows I'll see how things go.

An Coilean wrote: »

Plenty of Buachaillí too if thats what your into.
You never know, they might run An Stail Gaelach again.

lol, nah if I entered it wouldn't be fair for the other lads.

An Coilean · 24-08-2013 10:45PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

While the general population of the country has increased, meaning that native Irish-speaking is in effect declining.

No, it means that it is static, which by definition is not declining.

and force its use in areas where it has not been spoken for hundreds of years.

There is nowhere on the island that fits this description.

Then look at the absence of any Irish language media other than that subsidised by the state.

Or indeed the lack of terrestrial English Language media other than that subsidised by the state.
If no state money found its way to the media, English Language Media in this country would close in rapid succession.

It's on artificial life-support in a state-run nursing home.

That public money is spent on Irish means its on life support? Sure no public money was ever spent producing things in English.

Its always a fairly shoddy logic which applies to some things but not to others for it to work.

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 06:28AM

An Coilean wrote: »

No, it means that it is static, which by definition is not declining.

Relatively speaking, it is declining while English advances.

Or indeed the lack of terrestrial English Language media other than that subsidised by the state.

The Irish Times? The Irish Examiner? The Village? NewsTalk? RTE is financed mainly by the English-speaking population and some of this money finds its way to financing the unpopular TG4. If that station had to depend on Irish language viewers only, it would struggle to achieve an hours output a day.

An Coilean wrote: »

That public money is spent on Irish means its on life support? Sure no public money was ever spent producing things in English.

The difference is that all the Irish language media is on hock to the state and would close instantly if state funding were withdrawn. The language is so feeble, and lifeless that it cannot energise its own media, nor can it mantain its numbers without coercive legislation forcing or paying people to speak it.

Irish is spoken in a fantasy world built from state grants and interventions.

An Coilean · 25-08-2013 10:20AM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Relatively speaking, it is declining while English advances.

You can try to spin it however you like, the fact remains that the number of Native Irish speakers is not actually in decline.

The Irish Times? The Irish Examiner? The Village? NewsTalk? RTE is financed mainly by the English-speaking population and some of this money finds its way to financing the unpopular TG4. If that station had to depend on Irish language viewers only, it would struggle to achieve an hours output a day.

Yep, most of those organisations would struggle to stay open if public money did not find its way to them.

The difference is that all the Irish language media is on hock to the state and would close instantly if state funding were withdrawn.

Not all but indeed most, and the same is actually true of most English Language media in this country. Remember what I said about shoddy logic?

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 11:48AM

BognarRegis wrote: »

The language is so feeble, and lifeless that it cannot energise its own media, nor can it mantain its numbers without coercive legislation forcing or paying people to speak it.

Irish is spoken in a fantasy world built from state grants and interventions.

How do you explain Lurgan V Avicci going viral then (and the lads and ladies singing the bloody song), almost 1.5 million people viewing it and it on the rise... their other songs Pompeii, Get Lucky and Cups combined almost have another million views... I have never seen the language re-energised so much in my lifetime anyway, they are young and have made the language fun again.

There is nothing better that could happen to make sure the language grows into the future... make the language fun and relevant to the young and the language will prosper for generations.

HansHolzel · 25-08-2013 12:26PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

A small, cottage industry supported indirectly by the mandatory Irish regulations. Hardly a significant part of the economy or mainstream culture.

In the real world, we speak English. And, I suspect, so do the money-grubbing bean a ti.

Whatever about speaking English, you can't even spell it. It's Bognor Regis.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 04:44PM

irishfeen wrote: »

How do you explain Lurgan V Avicci going viral then (and the lads and ladies singing the bloody song), almost 1.5 million people viewing it and it on the rise... their other songs Pompeii, Get Lucky and Cups combined almost have another million views... I have never seen the language re-energised so much in my lifetime anyway, they are young and have made the language fun again.

There is nothing better that could happen to make sure the language grows into the future... make the language fun and relevant to the young and the language will prosper for generations.

And? What of it? A youtube video has gone viral and still has less views then two babies talking to each other. Is this supposed to be evidence of a gaelic revival mark 2.0?

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 05:03PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And? What of it? A youtube video has gone viral and still has less views then two babies talking to each other. Is this supposed to be evidence of a gaelic revival mark 2.0?

It has singly re-energised the language more then anything I have ever seen... everyone from DJ's on the radio to mom and dad at home are talking about how it showcases the language in a good light and it makes the language relevant and fun ... hopefully it is a start to a revival of the language for the young generation... and what exactly would be wrong with that...

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 05:07PM

irishfeen wrote: »

It has singly re-energised the language more then anything I have ever seen... everyone from DJ's on the radio to mom and dad at home are talking about how it showcases the language in a good light and it makes the language relevant and fun ... hopefully it is a start to a revival of the language for the young generation... and what exactly would be wrong with that...

Nothing neccessarily wrong with that you're just reading far too much into it. Videos go viral all the time and to put it into context two babies talking like adults has more views. In a months time this video will be forgotten about and people will be talking about something else.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 05:12PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nothing neccessarily wrong with that you're just reading far too much into it. Videos go viral all the time and to put it into context two babies talking like adults has more views. In a months time this video will be forgotten about and people will be talking about something else.

I know the problems that the language is encountering, that's why I posted a considerable post (#1436) on the teaching of the language (from primary to secondary)... the problem is that the language is not being taught properly.. would you agree with the implementation of such a plan as I outlined to ensure it survives for generations?

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 05:28PM

irishfeen wrote: »

I know the problems that the language is encountering, that's why I posted a considerable post (#1436) on the teaching of the language (from primary to secondary)... the problem is that the language is not being taught properly.. would you agree with the implementation of such a plan as I outlined to ensure it survives for generations?

I don't because it places too much emphasis on Irish in the education system and places too big of a disadvantage on those who are weak at language learning.

On the other hand I do agree with some of your posts, I've long thought the only real way of reviving the language was to make all Primary schools Irish speaking.

Pick a far off date, say 2030 and resolve to have all primary schools Irish speaking by that date, then have all secondary schools speaking Irish by 2038 when the students leaving the previous primary level schools will be entering second level.

Third level will be the hardest so aim for transition by 2050 to allow the college time to take on staff, by the year 2075 the language will be saved because graduates will only know professional and technical terms needed for their employment in Irish. It would help solve our emigration problem too.

But of course this is politically impossible to implement so it won't get off the ground.

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 05:30PM

irishfeen wrote: »

the problem is that the language is not being taught properly..

You assume that by teaching people Irish using better methods than at present, people will want to learn it and will progress to speaking it and using it in their everyday lives, perhaps, one day, even achieving the Restoration of Irish as Common Tongue of Ireland.

That's an enormous assumption or utterly titanic proportions.

What's the basis of this assumption?

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 05:38PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

You assume that by teaching people Irish using better methods than at present, people will want to learn it and will progress to speaking it and using it in their everyday lives, perhaps, one day, even achieving the Restoration of Irish as Common Tongue of Ireland.

That's an enormous assumption or utterly titanic proportions.

What's the basis of this assumption?

13 years of primary/secondary school education is what i'm basing my assumptions on... it was made totally irrelevant to me by teachers who read out of a book... they wanted us to structurally pass the exam rather then know what we were actually doing and conversing in the language...

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 05:44PM

irishfeen wrote: »

13 years of primary/secondary school education is what i'm basing my assumptions on... it was made totally irrelevant to me by teachers who read out of a book... they wanted us to structurally pass the exam rather then know what we were actually doing and conversing in the language...

That's not answering his question, how do you go from better teaching to restoring Irish as the main language?

Aineoil · 25-08-2013 05:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not answering his question, how do you go from better teaching to restoring Irish as the main language?

You need to create the desire to learn the language. How do you create the desire? I don't know.

Some people want to learn Irish other people don't.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 05:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't because it places too much emphasis on Irish in the education system and places too big of a disadvantage on those who are weak at language learning.

On the other hand I do agree with some of your posts, I've long thought the only real way of reviving the language was to make all Primary schools Irish speaking.

Pick a far off date, say 2030 and resolve to have all primary schools Irish speaking by that date, then have all secondary schools speaking Irish by 2038 when the students leaving the previous primary level schools will be entering second level.

Third level will be the hardest so aim for transition by 2050 to allow the college time to take on staff, by the year 2075 the language will be saved because graduates will only know professional and technical terms needed for their employment in Irish. It would help solve our emigration problem too.

But of course this is politically impossible to implement so it won't get off the ground.

To be honest I wouldn't have any major problem going down the route you set out either but I do think what I set out would be an awful lot easier to implement - it would basically just mean changing our approach on assessment over night... away from standardised boring written exams to people sitting down together actually conversing in a language before anything else from Baby infants to 6th year of secondary school... who cares if someone forgets a fada in and misspells a word -get children talking it and understanding it before we worry about anything else.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 05:50PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not answering his question, how do you go from better teaching to restoring Irish as the main language?

But I didn't necessarily say i wanted Irish to be restored to our main language.. could we not have it in a way for school leavers to be fluent in both.

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 05:53PM

Aineoil wrote: »

You need to create the desire to learn the language. How do you create the desire? I don't know.

Some people want to learn Irish other people don't.

Well desire comes from whether we can make the language relevant... of course some people will never want to learn Irish - and that's no problem (that's why I would take the compulsory nature of the subject away from the leaving)... things like the lurgan makes the language fun and current, teaching in such a format would I guarantee improve the desire to learn.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 06:06PM

irishfeen wrote: »

Well desire comes from whether we can make the language relevant... of course some people will never want to learn Irish - and that's no problem (that's why I would take the compulsory nature of the subject away from the leaving)... things like the lurgan makes the language fun and current, teaching in such a format would I guarantee improve the desire to learn.

Lurgan videos only promote a temporary interest at best, you need to creat a desire to speak the language among the general populace and that's just not going to happen.

irishfeen wrote: »

But I didn't necessarily say i wanted Irish to be restored to our main language.. could we not have it in a way for school leavers to be fluent in both.

No matter how the language is thought students won't spend the time needed to be fluent unless a desire to become fluent and speak the language outside the education system is present.

BognarRegis · 25-08-2013 06:08PM

irishfeen wrote: »

But I didn't necessarily say i wanted Irish to be restored to our main language.. could we not have it in a way for school leavers to be fluent in both.

You seem to ignore the wishes of the students and their parents, don't they count?

Would it be too distressing for you to take on board the possibility that a great many people in Ireland, actually yhe majority of our population, don't wish to speak Irish?

irishfeen · 25-08-2013 06:11PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Lurgan videos only promote a temporary interest at best, you need to creat a desire to speak the language among the general populace and that's just not going to happen.

I'm just using it as a reference of how the language should be taught, we have tried to bate it into/read it out of a book to children for years - it doesn't work! ... if you sit back and just imagine how we learn English - at home with parents talking and conversing... we don't pick up a pencil to write a word in English for about 4 years. To an extent that's how we have to structure teaching the subject - converse first and pick up a pencil then.

Iwasfrozen · 25-08-2013 06:12PM

irishfeen wrote: »

To be honest I wouldn't have any major problem going down the route you set out either but I do think what I set out would be an awful lot easier to implement - it would basically just mean changing our approach on assessment over night... away from standardised boring written exams to people sitting down together actually conversing in a language before anything else from Baby infants to 6th year of secondary school... who cares if someone forgets a fada in and misspells a word -get children talking it and understanding it before we worry about anything else.

The plan I laid out would be impossible to implement and it's the only one I could see working because it involves compulsion. Given the choice the general population will never choose to speak Irish, you have to force them and the easiest way to do that is ensure their standard of English is not sufficient for professional capacity. Hence why I gave the deadline as 2075.

Under your plan children will just choose to converse in their native language over Irish and there is nothing politically minded adults or teachers could do to stop them.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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