Ladies your opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes

CarlDunne1979 · 22-08-2013 09:37PM

Pug160 wrote: »

He's right about the no strings sites - there is a big ratio difference. Maybe not as big as he claims but there is a huge difference. Regular dating sites are probably more equal though. There's an element of truth to what he's saying in general but he's thinking very negatively which often becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. As I've said before though, if you have social difficulties it can be tough out there, especially as a man.

Do you really think many women out their regardless of physical appearance are willing to meet an average looking guy for anonymous sex through the internet? Anyone who's lived in the real world should know this is extremely unlikely, emphasis on extremely, because of supply and demand. People look out for the best deal available when choosing a partner, especially a sex partner, and women have many options so their standards are naturally very high. Perhaps a top tier male in terms of looks could have success on a NSA site or dating site in terms of finding casual sex, but why would he need to do so? Anyone who's been to a nightclub knows how easily 'hot' guys pull at those places. It's shameless.

And it doesn't have to be as severe as something like Asperger's either

I agree. You have to cold approach a large number of women to have a chance, and many men are unwilling to do this due to confidence issues which is understandable because doing so does not feel very socially appropriate at all.

Legs.Eleven · 22-08-2013 09:39PM

Oh! I thought I wandered into the TLL for a minute there. My mistake!! *Leaves and closes door*.

Pug160 · 22-08-2013 09:46PM

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

Do you really think many women out their regardless of physical appearance are willing to meet an average looking guy for anonymous sex through the internet? Anyone who's lived in the real world should know this is extremely unlikely, emphasis on extremely. Perhaps a top tier male in terms of looks could have success on a NSA site or dating site in terms of finding casual sex, but why would he need to do so? Anyone who's been to a nightclub knows how easily 'hot' guys pull at those places. It's shameless.

I agree. You have to cold approach a large number of women to have a chance, and many men are unwilling to do this due to confidence issues which is understandable because doing so does not feel socially appropriate at all.

Handsome guys probably do better on average but being decent looking is no guarantee. I work out and take good care of myself and don't have much luck because I'm shy without alcohol. For guys like me it adds insult to injury because people think you're even more weird because you look decent yet are never with a girl. Think about that for a moment.

There are women who like casual sex and casual relationships but you'll probably not find them on those websites as they're outnumbered. Those girls are generally more interested in ''box tickers'' such as a first experience with a girl etc. Try to be more positive though. That's saying a lot coming from me but you have to be otherwise you'll fester. Get yourself a few hobbies if you can.

CarlDunne1979 · 22-08-2013 09:56PM

Pug160 wrote: »

Handsome guys probably do better on average but being decent looking is no guarantee. I work out and take good care of myself and don't have much luck because I'm shy without alcohol. For guys like me it adds insult to injury because people think you're even more weird because you look decent yet are never with a girl. Think about that for a moment.

There are women who like casual sex and casual relationships but you'll probably not find them on those websites as they're outnumbered. Those girls are generally more interested in ''box tickers'' such as a first experience with a girl etc. Try to be more positive though. That's saying a lot coming from me but you have to be otherwise you'll fester. Get yourself a few hobbies if you can.

I sad top tier, as in potential male models. Guys who look like male models are the only ones who have a decent chance of getting anonymous sex from the internet. A poster earlier in the thread flat out said online anonymous sex was there for the taking for average men.

Pug160 · 22-08-2013 10:04PM

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

I sad top tier, as in potential male models. Guys who look like male models are the only ones who have a decent chance of getting anonymous sex from the internet. A poster earlier in the thread flat out said online anonymous sex was there for the taking for average men.

There's only a small percentage of men who look like that, and they are not on those websites. The guys who are successful are probably friends of friends or part of a swingers group and that type of thing. I've seen some of those guys and they are not all handsome, trust me. Other guys might just live close by and have the gift of the gab.

I think you'd be better off ditching the online stuff and working on your conversational skills. I'm doing the same at the moment. You have deeply ingrained views that are not true in most cases and it's holding you back. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but if you have the money, cognitive behavioural therapy might be worth looking into. There is no shame in it as I've been in pretty dark places myself.

22-08-2013 10:12PM

I thought this thread was seeking ladies opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes. How did it turn into men discussing the difficulties of getting anonymous sex without paying?

CarlDunne1979 · 22-08-2013 10:15PM

What tripe. Anyone who doesn't pretend sex is easy to get and we live in a dating paradise needs psychotherapy now? I have fine conversation skills, and get laid every once in a while now that I'm in my 30s. However I'm under no illusions as to how difficult it is for young guys these days as things have clearly gotten far worse since I was young and it was hardly a dating paradise back then either.

Lucyfur · 22-08-2013 10:17PM

Stay on topic.

CarlDunne1979, I don't think you need to be reminded that you have been banned twice already.

The title is not ''Male models seeking casual sex from the internet''

CarlDunne1979 · 22-08-2013 10:18PM

Candie wrote: »

I thought this thread was seeking ladies opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes. How did it turn into men discussing the difficulties of getting anonymous sex without paying?

Some ladies have made bizarre claims such as that anonymous internet sex is there for the taking for average looking men. You can't expect someone claiming such rubbish not to spark controversy and get called out on their BS. Or do you think blatant lying and dishonesty is fine and dandy?

22-08-2013 10:19PM

Go somewhere else Carl.

Lucyfur · 22-08-2013 10:20PM

Carl is taking another break from the forum.

MaxWig · 23-08-2013 09:22AM

I agree with some of the posters that the thread has been derailed, and I'll take my own responsibility for some of that.

I am very interested in women's attitudes towards men using brothels. I guess I do get animated by the topic, only because it fascinates me. I still believe that there is a fine line between slut shaming and some of the more negative attitudes directed at prostitution clients.

If we accept that trafficking is a separate phenomenon (which is often closely linked of course), then the assumption that a woman cannot work in the sex industry without having in some way failed in life, without being victims etc. seems to driven by opinions regarding sex

I imagine the decision to work in prostitution is very often due to poor options, poor life decisions, drug use etc.

But for me, the derision aimed at clients AND prostitutes is what's interesting. It's sex, sex, sex, sex!! Nothing else evokes these attitudes towards people

Lucyfur · 23-08-2013 07:12PM

Pug 160,

Please don't address a poster who you know is banned from posting. Also, if you don't agree with a post, report it, rather than discussing it on thread.

jaffacakesyum · 24-08-2013 12:15AM

MaxWig wrote: »

Whoa Jaffa.

Firstly, as my previous post stated, I 'clarified' what I meant by entitlement. It was clearly mentioned, so I'm unsure what you are still challenging.

I'm challenging that anybody - male or female - is entitled to sex. They're not. You say

I absolutely think every man, and every woman are entitled to sex, in the sense that suggesting that someone should live their life without experiencing it is a weird kind of cruelty in my opinion

So what happens if they don't have sex? What happens if they can't afford a prostitute? Is it still an entitlement then? It sounds like dangerous territory or maybe it's just the language here and you actually don't believe sex is an entitlement but rather something that ideally everyone would be getting.

Secondly, who said feminism was a dirty word? I consider myself a feminist, having benefited greatly from it. But by all means keep fighting the good fight - we all need a cause I guess.

Men most certainly are the main punters, and women the main 'service providers'.

Of course the reality of prostitution is often unpleasant, but this is true of many phenomena. For me, the debate is skewed by the opinions of society towards women, and men for that matter. The assumption in all cases is that prostitutes (women) are victims, and that punters (men) are predatory.

I guess if I'm being honest, that is the attitude I ascribed to you Jaffa. If I was mistaken, I apologise.

Well I apologise if I jumped the gun thinking you were an anti-feminist, as you share the same language and same debates as many many anti-feminists on boards.ie so I'm sorry about that misunderstanding.

But yeah I also found the whole assumption that I thought all men were predators pretty offensive/shocking too. So thanks for the apology.

As for the whole debate in general, I don't think either side is going to agree on this. I can understand why people are "pro-prostitution" for sure. I just find it funny how the other side can't see what peoples issues with it are. In a thread lasting this long, no less. :pac:

jay92 · 24-08-2013 02:42AM

Fact of the matter is woman are very superficial..sex for money is a business transaction and there is nothing wrong with it.

Woman need to open their minds rather than just their eyes.

You always hear woman saying 'my type of tall dark and handsome' bull**** ye need to get real

vitani · 24-08-2013 07:44AM

jay92 wrote: »

Fact of the matter is woman are very superficial..sex for money is a business transaction and there is nothing wrong with it.

Woman need to open their minds rather than just their eyes.

You always hear woman saying 'my type of tall dark and handsome' bull**** ye need to get real

Yeah, maybe in romance novels or badly written porn or something. I've never once heard a woman say anything like that and I could guarantee that I've spoken to more of them about their taste in men than you have.

Maybe all of the lads with views like this should take the time to actually get to know some women. Might wipe those prejudices away, and even bring you some success in the oul romance department.

There have been some shocking attitudes to women displayed in this thread.

24-08-2013 10:03AM

jay92 wrote: »

Fact of the matter is woman are very superficial..sex for money is a business transaction and there is nothing wrong with it.

Woman need to open their minds rather than just their eyes.

You always hear woman saying 'my type of tall dark and handsome' bull**** ye need to get real

Mod

Jay92, speaking of opening eyes, please read the charter, generalisations of either gender are not tolerated in this forum. Please ensure you familiarise yourself with the ethos of the ladies lounge before posting here again.

xzanti · 24-08-2013 01:24PM

I think paying someone to have sex with you is terribly sad, I wouldn't judge a single person for doing it.. I'd more feel sorry for them tbh.

Married and attached people who do it, in my eyes are just scum.. plain and simple.. Lying to their partners who love them and treating their relationships as a joke, it's unforgivable.

The sex workers themselves, I think many of them may have been sexually abused, have very low self esteem or have substance abuse problems..

I'm sure there are probably some who get into it purely for the money and the glamour, as in high class escorts etc.. but at the end of the day, it's the same thing really.. having sex for money.. neither is any better or worse than the other.

25-08-2013 01:28AM

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

I just find it funny how the other side can't see what peoples issues with it are. In a thread lasting this long, no less. :pac:

I think quite a few of them can see what peoples issues are, but they ignore those issues because it inconveniences them. It's easier to believe you're right than it is to change your attitudes or modify your behaviour, especially if it means you'll ultimately deprive yourself.

To echo Vitani, there are some shocking attitudes to women on display here.

fits · 25-08-2013 06:03AM

I would think less of any man who used prostitutes. I certainly wouldn't want to be involved with anyone who sees sex as a transaction. Nope. Not for me.

jay92 · 25-08-2013 10:59PM

xzanti wrote: »

.

The sex workers themselves, I think many of them may have been sexually abused, have very low self esteem or have substance abuse problems..

Prove it...you cant because your speculating and just siding with what society think, start thinking for yourself.

Femme_Fatale · 25-08-2013 11:46PM

jay92 wrote: »

Fact of the matter is woman are very superficial

All of us?

..sex for money is a business transaction and there is nothing wrong with it.

Yeh I agree once there's no abuse involved and it's entirely the prostitute's choice.

You always hear woman saying 'my type of tall dark and handsome' bull**** ye need to get real

Yeh because guys would never talk about their ideal type. And what's wrong with it? Doesn't mean that's the only type of person they'd dream of going near, it's just fantasising.

I don't object to prostitution as much as some folks here do (and they are entitled to their opinions, which they have supported well) but that doesn't change how flawed that post is. Lol at a woman thanking it.

SoupMonster · 26-08-2013 06:44AM

jay92 wrote: »

Prove it...you cant because your speculating and just siding with what society think, start thinking for yourself.

What xzanti said is true of the US where prostitution is illegal, it is well studied. It may not be directly transferable to Ireland, but she would be right to worry that this may be the case for some, if not many, women here.

If there is some aspect of what society thinks that you disagree with, tell me and I will try to dig out some reliable data for you.

Meanwhile, here is a submission to the "Public hearing on combating human trafficking and on monitoring prostitution areas" in the Bundestag. It gives a view of the prostitution scene in Stuttgart. I include it only because it is recent, and some people in the form may not be aware of how prostitution works in relatively high end brothels in Germany.

The Wellness Centre or FKK Sauna that she talks about to the Bundestag is a very good brothel model that attracts many customers from France, Holland and Denmark. On the surface, it seems to treat women fairly, well, its the fairest I have seen anywhere. The submission highlights many concerns with it though.

SoupMonster · 26-08-2013 07:37AM

I am surprised to see women pity or excuse men who buy sex.

I have seen a thread on another site where women, particularly, were swayed by the feminist analysis of "consent" that I have shamelessly lifted from a woman on another site. The general reaction to this was "I'd never thought deeply the concept of "consent" before but she is completely right." Many women changed their views on men who bought sex.

I don't want to argue the case on behalf of radical feminists, I just present what she said and I would be interested if this changes the minds of any women here.

The big elephant in the room with the pro prostitution argument (which basically comes down to happy hooker/choice), and the punters who delude themselves with that argument, is the framing of 'consent' WRT sexual intercourse between women and men in male supremacist culture.

Feminist analysis is sex a woman doesn't want, is rape. This is the analysis from the female perspective.
Patriarchal analysis is that rape is sex a woman does not consent to. This is a male perspective.

Consent can be bought, manipulated, influenced and coerced.

"Consent" is a smoke and mirrors patriarchal concept used to allow men to get away with raping women. "Consent" is a rape myth - possibly the biggest one of all.

Consent in prostitution is pay to rape.

And punters know this - they just either don't care, lie to themselves about it or they actively get off on it.

"Consent" is always the final word in the pro-prostitution argument as though it is an unexaminable, non-flawed neutral reality, when the truth is that consent is a patriarchal social construct rooted in the oppression of women via our vulnerability to PIV. Consent is a tool of oppression and nowhere is that more obvious than in prostitution and porn.

You don't 'consent' to sex you want, you just have it/do it/participate in it. Consent doesn't figure at all. Consent only figures when sex is not wanted i.e. in the context of rape.

starling · 26-08-2013 09:01AM

^^^^Well she's got a point in that if the only way a woman can feed herself or her kids is to go into prostitution, it's not truly a "choice" it's something that she's been forced into by circumstance. So although she may technically have been said to "consent" it's not really consent.

I know that personally when I talk about consent I mean true, free consent, a choice that you make of your own free will - not because you have no other choice. I assumed that was what everyone else here meant by "consent" too.

I think the author you quoted might be talking about the widespread notion of "consent" as "not saying no." In which case she's not entirely wrong - this idea of consent as a lack of refusal is used all the time in discussions of rape or coercion and I think some people use it as a technicality when the truth is they didn't actually care if a woman wanted sex or not.

There are definitely some dangerous misconceptions around the notion of consent that allow rapists to get away with rape. For example the notion that if drugs or alcohol are involved consent suddenly becomes complicated because a person might "consent" while under the influence but next morning "revoke" that consent and claim to have been raped. It's depressing how many people actually believe that and the acceptance of this lets genuine rapists do what they want knowing that it'll be difficult for their victim to prove anything.

"Consent" as a key part of discussion of and prosecution of rape is a bit unsatisfactory if people have different ideas about what actually constitutes consent. But it's the best we can do at the moment because when you take a rapist to trial he can't be allowed to get off on the basis that "he isn't a mind reader and can't know what you want or don't want", he can know what you consented to.

clairefontaine · 26-08-2013 09:12AM

starling wrote: »

^^^^Well she's got a point in that if the only way a woman can feed herself or her kids is to go into prostitution, it's not truly a "choice" it's something that she's been forced into by circumstance. So although she may technically have been said to "consent" it's not really consent.

I know that personally when I talk about consent I mean true, free consent, a choice that you make of your own free will - not because you have no other choice. I assumed that was what everyone else here meant by "consent" too.

I think the author you quoted might be talking about the widespread notion of "consent" as "not saying no." In which case she's not entirely wrong - this idea of consent as a lack of refusal is used all the time in discussions of rape or coercion and I think some people use it as a technicality when the truth is they didn't actually care if a woman wanted sex or not.

There are definitely some dangerous misconceptions around the notion of consent that allow rapists to get away with rape. For example the notion that if drugs or alcohol are involved consent suddenly becomes complicated because a person might "consent" while under the influence but next morning "revoke" that consent and claim to have been raped. It's depressing how many people actually believe that and the acceptance of this lets genuine rapists do what they want knowing that it'll be difficult for their victim to prove anything.

"Consent" as a key part of discussion of and prosecution of rape is a bit unsatisfactory if people have different ideas about what actually constitutes consent. But it's the best we can do at the moment because when you take a rapist to trial he can't be allowed to get off on the basis that "he isn't a mind reader and can't know what you want or don't want", he can know what you consented to.

The things is though, in the West, bar kidnapping and trafficking, we make choices and often say "I have no choice." We stay this because it never FEELS like we have one.

I happen to agree entirely with that article above in the context of prostitution. You are paying to rape someone essentially. The consent is entirely flawed and debatable, and IMO that does not equal consent.

In your later examples around rape, I don't entirely agree with you universally. Memory is fickle. Alcohol,impairs judgement. Sex is shamed for girls, so much so she might not bear the thought she did this of her own free will, so she scripts it as a rape. And mixed messages too, a girl might give into whatever peer pressure she is feeling, may not want to engage in what she is doing, but hasn't the assertiveness to say back off and thump him one. He has no idea of the signals of this reticence, and thinks they're having a great old time. She goes back to her Barnard or Smith College dorm and tells her friends and they convince her she's just been raped. You can guess what happens next. Or maybe high school and her parents take out a rape charge.

26-08-2013 09:13AM

People don't want to go to a lot of their jobs either but they get paid to do it
That's all a bit wishy washy and I'm sticking with the consent idea - if they consent then that's it

MaxWig · 26-08-2013 09:29AM

starling wrote: »

^^^^Well she's got a point in that if the only way a woman can feed herself or her kids is to go into prostitution, it's not truly a "choice" it's something that she's been forced into by circumstance. So although she may technically have been said to "consent" it's not really consent.

I know that personally when I talk about consent I mean true, free consent, a choice that you make of your own free will - not because you have no other choice. I assumed that was what everyone else here meant by "consent" too.

I think the author you quoted might be talking about the widespread notion of "consent" as "not saying no." In which case she's not entirely wrong - this idea of consent as a lack of refusal is used all the time in discussions of rape or coercion and I think some people use it as a technicality when the truth is they didn't actually care if a woman wanted sex or not.

There are definitely some dangerous misconceptions around the notion of consent that allow rapists to get away with rape. For example the notion that if drugs or alcohol are involved consent suddenly becomes complicated because a person might "consent" while under the influence but next morning "revoke" that consent and claim to have been raped. It's depressing how many people actually believe that and the acceptance of this lets genuine rapists do what they want knowing that it'll be difficult for their victim to prove anything.

"Consent" as a key part of discussion of and prosecution of rape is a bit unsatisfactory if people have different ideas about what actually constitutes consent. But it's the best we can do at the moment because when you take a rapist to trial he can't be allowed to get off on the basis that "he isn't a mind reader and can't know what you want or don't want", he can know what you consented to.

I find the introduction of rape into the discussion really unhelpful. While I think there is certain demented logic at play in the post above re consent, it is simply verbal gymnastics, and provides no help in a tricky area.

The idea that a woman 'has no choice' is BS. It is BS all day, and all night. If you wish to infantilise prostitutes by suggesting that they incapable of responsibility or choice, fine, but I see no end to that craziness.

I genuinely agree that free will is a tricky concept, and that there is something to the suggestion that prostitutes 'have no choice' in their introduction to prostitution - but you can apply that to 'everything', literally. I had no choice in anything I have chosen - it was simple cause and effect. But it won't stand up as defence in a murder trial so I fail to see how you can apply it anywhere else

xzanti · 26-08-2013 10:28AM

jay92 wrote: »

Prove it...you cant because your speculating

I don't have to prove anything.. I said "I think".. I didn't say "It's a well known fact".. but I stand by my opinion nonetheless.

jay92 wrote: »

and just siding with what society think, start thinking for yourself.

No, I'm siding with my own experience of the world..

clairefontaine · 26-08-2013 10:31AM

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/zurich-opens-first-sex-boxes-to-reduce-open-street-prostitution-29528035.html

What will the Swiss think of next....

Ladies your opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes

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