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UK Judge refuses to allow burka wearer to enter a plea!

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bizmark wrote: »
    Then they can learn that covering your face in court cause your sky god or someone who speaks on behalf of your sky god proclaims it so is viewed as not acceptable in a modern country

    Modern country or free country? Do elaborate...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    A nun's habit covers her body, her head-dress covers her head and generally in public places her face is exposed, so identification is not a problem.

    And if she has a identical twin sister....? A sister sister if you will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Could she not ware a Hijab to court?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    I would assume we were talking about official, state sanctioned stonings. Not some lunatic acting alone.

    The point is there are batsh1t crazy punishments in every religion.

    But we are talking about Britain, where there are no stonings. The only reason it was brought up was to slur Islam.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Could she not ware a Hijab to court?

    Some wear hijab, some wear niqab, others wear burqa.

    Would niqab suit the court?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    meoklmrk91 wrote: »
    I completely concur, swearing on the bible is archaic at best.

    It doesn't affect me personally, I never said it did, it does however beg the question that if I went into court having been accused of a crime with a sack on my head and said it was part of my religion would I be afforded any of the special treatment that this woman is asking for, I think not, and therefore she shouldn't get it either. Religion as I have said has not place in a court of law.
    You are not obliged to swear on the bible, an affirmation will suffice. This is done so the court has recourse if you commit perjury.

    http://secular.ie/2012/08/01/oath-to-god-and-the-affirmation-in-irish-courts-discrimination-on-right-to-privacy-and-jury-bias/only


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Proper order it's about time something like this happened.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,784 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Muise... wrote: »
    gets even trickier if she was wearing the burka at the time of the alleged offence.

    She would not be in court if there was not evidence, which will have to be tested, that she allegedly intimidated someone. Her wearing of the burqa when it happened, if that was the case, has not stopped her being brought to court.

    If she was not wearing the burqa when it happened she will have to show her face in the court for the purposes of identification by witnesses if the case reaches that point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Proper order it's about time something like this happened.

    Yeah, that'll show 'em!! Rabble Rabble...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 129 ✭✭valknut


    MadsL wrote: »
    The point is there are batsh1t crazy punishments in every religion.

    But we are talking about Britain, where there are no stonings. The only reason it was brought up was to slur Islam.

    Consider the way british society bends over backwards to accommodate islam I doubt that is the case. This is a judge with a good judge of common sense.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,939 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    MadsL wrote: »
    Many poker tells consist of looking at tension in the neck. If a nun is giving evidence in court, why is she not asked to remove her habit?

    :pac:

    Because she is not playing Texas Hold'em to win her freedom!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭Saab Ed


    She could of course wear anything she wants in an Islamic country. Best of luck with that justice system though.

    Never fails to amaze me how people drag archaic systems and beliefs to other countries yet they or their fore fathers left those very countries because of all the bull**** there in the first place.

    I'm not gonna win political correctness awards with ny opinions but the truth is in this part of the word we have rules, in other parts of the world they have other rules. I must be fully aware and abide by those rules where ever I might be.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,895 ✭✭✭bizmark


    MadsL wrote: »
    Modern country or free country? Do elaborate...

    One and the same however we all live with in culturally acceptable boundary's of "free" wearing a full face disguise in court is not only unacceptable its down right laughable


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    MadsL wrote: »
    Wtf? You realise the burka has very little to do with Islam?

    Did you read the woman's defence? She says it's part of her religion (which is Islam) to wear a burqa. If it has very little to do with her religion then that's one more reason why she shouldn't wear it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,949 ✭✭✭A Primal Nut


    valknut wrote: »
    Consider the way british society bends over backwards to accommodate islam I doubt that is the case. This is a judge with a good judge of common sense.

    Exactly, it's the ultimate irony that the more liberal a country is, the more it needs to accomodate conservative beliefs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,560 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    MadsL wrote: »
    And if she has a identical twin sister....? A sister sister if you will.

    C'mon now Madsl, not quite the same thing as covering your face in a court of law now is it. The words Straws and Clutching are coming to mind with you trying to make your point valid.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    MadsL wrote: »
    Some wear hijab, some wear niqab, others wear burqa.

    Would niqab suit the court?

    A niqab wouldn't solve the issue. A hijab allows her to still abide by her religious beliefs, which she should be able to do, while still cooperating with the law of the land.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,895 ✭✭✭bizmark


    Exactly, it's the ultimate irony that the more liberal a country is, the more it needs to accomodate conservative beliefs.

    in fairness there's conservative beliefs like "don't wear a bikini young lady!" and "here wear thsi full length body curtain cause your a second class citizen in the eyes of our religion which hasn't moved past the 1600's"

    Tolerating the intolerable is ****ing cowardly


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    MadsL wrote: »
    Suspects come out of courtrooms with blankets over their heads ALL the time.
    Yes, when they're outside the courtroom. Any accused appearing before a court with a jumper over his head would not be tolerated.

    Do you even understand what entering a plea means?
    Of course I do, and it has nothing to do with what I said. I have mentioned 'appearing before the law' and 'answering a charge'.

    The courts have previously commented upon the significance of body language and expressions in witnesses and accused persons. An high profile example that springs to mind was the tesimony of Dr Michael Neary (he of the caesarian hysterectomies at a Drogheda hospital notoriety) in a civil action against him. There the judge cited Neary's body language in the witness box as "unconvincing". This stuff matters to the courts. They cannot allow accused persons and witnesses to hide their faces, except on grounds of personal safety.

    Would you have had Dr Neary appearing before the court with his head covered throughout his hearings, citing some vague religious justification?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,560 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Saab Ed wrote: »
    She could of course wear anything she wants in an Islamic country. Best of luck with that justice system though.

    Never fails to amaze me how people drag archaic systems and beliefs to other countries yet they or their fore fathers left those very countries because of all the bull**** there in the first place.

    I'm not gonna win political correctness awards with ny opinions but the truth is in this part of the word we have rules, in other parts of the world they have other rules. I must be fully aware and abide by those rules where ever I might be.

    Exactly, and if you don't accept or like the rules or ways of the country you are in, the Airport is thataway
    >


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    Yeah, that'll show 'em!! Rabble Rabble...

    No rabble rabble about it it's time people started standing up to this. Burkah's are being banned in public in some countries and they should certainly be banned in courts of law. Would you be allowed to wear a crucifix in a Saudi, Yemeni, Quatari court?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Rights are not absolute. There are still consequences to your actions. For example, if your religion practises certain health care restrictions, and your child dies, you can get a murder charge.

    http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-couple-puts-religion-on-trial-with-death-of-2nd-child-from-failed-faith-healing-regimen-97204/

    And rightly so IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Muise... wrote: »
    gets even trickier if she was wearing the burka at the time of the alleged offence.

    Exactly. And a good argument for not wearing them in public.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bumper234 wrote: »
    No rabble rabble about it it's time people started standing up to this. Burkah's are being banned in public in some countries and they should certainly be banned in courts of law. Would you be allowed to wear a crucifix in a Saudi, Yemeni, Quatari court?


    ...there's rather a difference between wearing a small symbol and something that blocks identification. In addition I don't think we should be asking anyone to base their system of justice on Saudi etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    valknut wrote: »
    Consider the way british society bends over backwards to accommodate islam I doubt that is the case. This is a judge with a good judge of common sense.

    Bends over backwards ?? Have you been studying it using the Daily Mail?
    Dave0301 wrote: »
    :pac:

    Because she is not playing Texas Hold'em to win her freedom!

    Oh, I'm sorry, I thought body language was essential?
    Saab Ed wrote: »
    She could of course wear anything she wants in an Islamic country.

    But you cannot wear what you like in a non-Islamic one, hmm. Which is the "free country" again???
    Never fails to amaze me how people drag archaic systems and beliefs to other countries yet they or their fore fathers left those very countries because of all the bull**** there in the first place.

    Yeah, not like we use the name of God to frame the constitution or anything.
    I'm not gonna win political correctness awards with ny opinions but the truth is in this part of the word we have rules, in other parts of the world they have other rules. I must be fully aware and abide by those rules where ever I might be.
    Right. So when a Western woman is sentenced to have her hand cut off for stealing, her Government shouldn't plead for clemency? Got it.
    bizmark wrote: »
    One and the same however we all live with in culturally acceptable boundary's of "free" wearing a full face disguise in court is not only unacceptable its down right laughable

    Disguise? That is not its purpose. Its purpose is modesty.
    Did you read the woman's defence? She says it's part of her religion (which is Islam) to wear a burqa. If it has very little to do with her religion then that's one more reason why she shouldn't wear it.

    Surely that his her choice to accept or reject the interpretation according to how she feels it fits with her sense of her religion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    A monk comes before the court.
    He has taken a very strict vow of silence and kept it for 20 years.

    Should he be allowed to convey answers to the court in writing only?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,111 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    Was she not wearing the burka during the witness intmidation? Rookie if so


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    MadsL wrote: »
    A monk comes before the court.
    He has taken a very strict vow of silence and kept it for 20 years.

    Should he be allowed to convey answers to the court in writing only?

    As long as he can be correctly identified then yes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,478 ✭✭✭wexie


    MadsL wrote: »
    Surely that his her choice to accept or reject the interpretation according to how she feels it fits with her sense of her religion.

    Dear President Bush,

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you and understand why you would propose and support a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage. As you said "in the eyes of God marriage is based between a man a woman." I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

    2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

    7. Lev.21:20 states that I may ! not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?

    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

    Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,479 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    MadsL wrote: »
    A monk comes before the court.
    He has taken a very strict vow of silence and kept it for 20 years.

    Should he be allowed to convey answers to the court in writing only?




    ?


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