Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Asked to teach a subject not qualified in

135

Comments

  • #62
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    billybartley wrote: »
    ........... This is not a fluffy subject like english or music- you need to have deep understanding of physics to teach it. ............

    Oi !

    Did you know.. that by the age of 18 the average music student (classically trained) will have more acquired subject knowledge than your typical surgeon at 50.

    Also.. its taken thousands of years to formulate a globally acceptable form of notation for music... now try teaching all that to first years on 1 class a week.

    Anyway apart from that aside...

    Would any principal like to see their name/school in the news..

    "Teacher fired because they refuse to teach a subject they are not qualified in."

    The unions would love publicising that one... The OP might actually be in a strong position if they he has any recording of the request from the Principal..(email!). Any subsequent discrimination could be argued that it was because the teacher saying no to unfair requests.

    Im sure by taking the course the OP would also be contravening some of the code of ethics they have signed up to with the TC... maybe by bringing himself/ the profession or the school into disrepute. And of course he could possibly argue that it goes against the Ethos of the school. (Ethos seems to win any court case these days!)

    Personally though.. my old physics teachers' method was highlight half the book and basically the mantra was "underline and learn folks". Funnily enough i actually got on ok and could suss out what was going on as my maths was good enough too and the teacher was 'well rehearsed'. I'd be happy enough to have a stab at it but defo prepared to the nth degree, also id be doing it with a view to doing some course part time to get me qualified by the TC. Maybe ask the Principal to fund this (Open University modules!!!) Would be a notch in the OP's belt...

    Failing that.. jest tell the principal to man up and get someone qualified in to teach it (as much as I'd loathe the Part time nature of this situation).

    Crazy that physics is being let go down the toilet in this country by cutbacks... All they have to do is offer some bonus points..sauce for the goose etc


  • #63
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    doc_17 wrote: »
    No sure if that's one question or two but I'd be a bit surprised at anyone who has read the forum and doesn't know my answer(s) to that.

    But just to clarify, the principal is wrong to to ask this person to teach a course they are not familiar with.

    So do you think that he should say no to his principal? yes or no............lets call a spade a spade here for crying out loud!


    If the school is not resourced enough to offer the subject, then that subject should not run. it seems that the principal does not want to say no to parents because he/she is a coward, but he has no problem putting the effective teaching of a subject on the line so that he can look good in the eyes of parents!Clearly he/she doesn't give a fiddlers for the students........only the PR of the school.


  • #64
    teacheritis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 ✭teacheritis


    Just to say, I'm in the same position as the OP. Asked to teach, or more so told to teach biology, meant to be teaching physics. Qualified now 6 years with a masters and still can't get the chance. The system drives me demented. I need the hours and really need the money and i wish i could afford that higher moral ground. Ive seen teachers in the school getting maths hours over me because their hours have to be filled first. Its crazy. There should be a better way of matching up qualifications.


  • #65
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    "Teacheritis" I think some teachers on here are aggravating the symptoms of that particular ailment at the moment:)


  • #66
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,407 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    jimbo28 wrote: »
    If the school is not resourced enough to offer the subject, then that subject should not run. it seems that the principal does not want to say no to parents because he/she is a coward, but he has no problem putting the effective teaching of a subject on the line so that he can look good in the eyes of parents!Clearly he/she doesn't give a fiddlers for the students........only the PR of the school.

    It's not always that simple. If there is a big demand for a subject (physics or otherwise), parents and students will want it to run, and often would be willing to accept another science teacher taking the class (in the case of physics) rather than not have it run at all. Particularly if attending another school is not an option (rural areas) or other local schools don't offer the subject.

    Another issue that arises is that if a teacher leaves/retires and there is a class going into leaving cert in that subject they have to be provided with a teacher one way or the other. Even if it was not to be offered for fifth year, it will be on the timetable for sixth year, and it's hard to hire a teacher just to teach one class group so often the only solution is to timetable someone who is already in the school.


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    It's not always that simple. If there is a big demand for a subject (physics or otherwise), parents and students will want it to run, and often would be willing to accept another science teacher taking the class (in the case of physics) rather than not have it run at all. Particularly if attending another school is not an option (rural areas) or other local schools don't offer the subject.

    Another issue that arises is that if a teacher leaves/retires and there is a class going into leaving cert in that subject they have to be provided with a teacher one way or the other. Even if it was not to be offered for fifth year, it will be on the timetable for sixth year, and it's hard to hire a teacher just to teach one class group so often the only solution is to timetable someone who is already in the school.

    Even if its to the detriment of the students? A little bit of foresight maybe from the exiting teacher may help? Whether parents and students want it to run or not is irrelevant, the school has a responsibility to provide a qualified teacher to teach a subject, if the school cannot provide said teacher then technically the subject cant run, teachers on here seem to think that its OK to throw a teacher into the role just so that the kids have a teacher.......competent or not.Things are simple and straight forward when you make them so, what i have seen on this thread is many attempts to con-volute the circumstances to the point of a justification of ill practice, nobody is disputing the circumstance........well not me anyway......but what i am disputing is the outcome.Its not rocket science but it is physics!


  • #68
    seavill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    I agree with you to a certain extent but some of your points are over the top.

    Foresight from the exiting teacher is completely outside if the control of the op so irrelevant to the subject question really. I replaced someone on 1st sep who retired at last min they did not even know they were retiring up to that point.

    So if the school cannot provide said teacher the subject cannot run.
    So what do the do with the students who have completed 5th year and this is one of their 7 subjects.

    You are talking about the ideal world in everything which is fine in theory but you must be realistic in your posts

    And before I'm jumped on for accepting the practice I have already suggested the op get help from senior teachers or union rep to support their plight


  • #69
    armitage1971
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32 ✭armitage1971


    As a parent and only speaking for myself I am absolutely shocked at this thread. Its a no win situation for anyone and the system is a total disgrace. One thing is for certain its completely opened my eyes to my child's education:mad:


  • #70
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    seavill wrote: »
    I agree with you to a certain extent but some of your points are over the top.

    Foresight from the exiting teacher is completely outside if the control of the op so irrelevant to the subject question really. I replaced someone on 1st sep who retired at last min they did not even know they were retiring up to that point.

    So if the school cannot provide said teacher the subject cannot run.
    So what do the do with the students who have completed 5th year and this is one of their 7 subjects.

    You are talking about the ideal world in everything which is fine in theory but you must be realistic in your posts

    And before I'm jumped on for accepting the practice I have already suggested the op get help from senior teachers or union rep to support their plight

    Look idealism is something we all learned in college, Im not an idealist, Im most certainly a realist, however it is the duty of the school to provide a competent teacher for the class, it is their responsibility. If being over the top is want whats right for the student then you are right.......i am guilty.Im also a man who believes in principle and has fire in his belly for the wholesome education of students,to be honest i cannot believe that teachers will let circumstance get in the way of professionalism............don't get me wrong Im not shocked!, ive been teaching long enough to know what some teachers are like and what they will do to keep their jobs, however that is not to say that they are right.If you believe in it, stand up for it............it will make you a better teacher in the long run.Are we not supposed to teach integrity, honesty and self belief, it makes me sad to think that sometimes educationalists don't have the education enough to admit when they are wrong!Roll on monday..........a day in school is like a day on the farm, every meal a banquet......every paycheck a fortune..........jesus i love school:). Idealist my arse(not directed at you,just a self thought)


  • #71
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    armitage1971 wrote: »
    As a parent and only speaking for myself I am absolutely shocked at this thread. Its a no win situation for anyone and the system is a total disgrace. One thing is for certain its completely opened my eyes to my child's education:mad:


    Thats a good thing.....sometimes teachers cannot implement change without a little help from the parents you know!


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    armitage1971
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32 ✭armitage1971


    jimbo28 wrote: »
    Thats a good thing.....sometimes teachers cannot implement change without a little help from the parents you know!

    Agreed......this is everyone's issue and as I said earlier its a no win situation for all.


  • #73
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    I seriously doubt that the principal couldn't find someone qualified willing to teach this subject. i suspect hes using it to fill the ops cid hours.

    After those LC students have left the subject will be more than likely dropped. Otherwise he should just get in a qualified teacher with the intention of keeping it on.

    Maybe pay to train up the OP to get them recognised!

    I think we need to step back from the high moral ground here and look at how prevalent this practice used to be. for us to say to the OP you should our shouldn't do it is too difficult as we don't really know the ins and outs of their standing with the principal. I think it's bad that he was put in this position but on the other hand ' needs must ' and all that.


  • #74
    Seanchai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    Armelodie wrote: »
    I seriously doubt that the principal couldn't find someone qualified willing to teach this subject. i suspect hes using it to fill the ops cid hours.

    I'd say you're correct about the CID. However, if there are only, say, 5 classes of Physics to fill per week, I suspect the principal will have considerable difficulty getting a new teacher to come into a school only for those five classes. This is particularly so when Physics will almost certainly be dropped as soon as the current students have finished thereby giving no long-term incentive to any potential teacher.


  • #75
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,308 ✭✭✭doc_17


    OP - Are you picking up this class in 5th or 6th year?


  • #76
    Seanchai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    teacheritis wrote: »
    The system drives me demented.... There should be a better way of matching up qualifications.
    armitage1971 wrote: »
    As a parent and only speaking for myself I am absolutely shocked at this thread. Its a no win situation for anyone and the system is a total disgrace. One thing is for certain its completely opened my eyes to my child's education:mad:

    I said it before, and I'll say it again, unless the DoES takes the bull by the horns and establishes a centralised recruitment system akin to An Garda Síochána where teachers' qualifications can be matched with appropriate vacancies in schools across the state, then many students will continue to be taught by teachers who are unqualified for the subject because in practical terms when a principal needs to have 3 or 5 classes taught it is often unable to attract a teacher for so few classes and it makes more financial sense to ask a teacher already on staff to teach them.

    Everybody would be a winner here, even if it would be a pain for the Department to establish it. The parents will be happier because it will be much, much more likely that a teacher qualified to teach the subject is teaching their children. If parents really knew how prevalent it is for subjects to be taught by people who are unqualified to teach them, there would be pressure on the DoES to establish a centralised recruitment system. Parents don't know, unfortunately. In a centralised recruitment system teachers on part-time hours would be much more likely to have their qualified subjects matched up to an appropriate vacancy and to be on something approaching full hours. There would also be far less politics in appointments where you get a job because you know somebody in the school/VEC etc.

    With society being much more mobile, allowing schools to recruit independently (for positions which are paid by the State) as they did before the motor car was invented is seriously outdated.


  • #77
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,543 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    This is possibly the most depressing thread I've ever read on boards.

    If a child is to be taught by an unqualified teacher, it should only happen with parental knowledge and express sign-off.

    It's a horrible position for you to be put in OP. Could you request that the principal informs the parents?


  • #78
    cb7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭cb7


    Just got my timetable - so have only just found out about physics. Only a few classes a week in the subject to Leaving Cert class. Principal would find it hard to get a teacher for just a few classes a week. Unlikely to inform parents of the fact I am unqualified. I suppose he is just filling up my CID hours.
    As an aside I also know of someone giving grinds for 30euro an hour and are totally unqualified in the subject areas. They are actually giving grinds in ANY subject area. They said the demand for grinds are unreal and they are flat out taking groups of students and making 500 a day!!! They take 5-6 students for the day (for 100e each) and have 'tutorial days'. I cant believe that parents are willing to pay this especially to an unqualified teacher.


  • #79
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    cb7 wrote: »
    As an aside I also know of someone giving grinds for 30euro an hour and are totally unqualified in the subject areas. They are actually giving grinds in ANY subject area. They said the demand for grinds are unreal and they are flat out taking groups of students and making 500 a day!!! They take 5-6 students for the day (for 100e each) and have 'tutorial days'. I cant believe that parents are willing to pay this especially to an unqualified teacher.

    Not being rude, but what is the relevance of this to the discussion?Parents pay these people privately............they are not under the employment of the public service. Parents can do what they like with their own money!

    Op your first post indicated that you were not happy in being asked to teach the subject and that you would like opinions as to what you may or may not do, given some of the responses on here and that you have had some time to think about your next move, do you know what avenue you are going to take?


  • #80
    cb7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭cb7


    Think I should give up work and give grinds in subjects I am qualified in!!! Not sure what to do - probably will have to teach it. Spoke to union they said it could take months to sort out. In the meantime I would have to teach it.


  • #81
    Days 298
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Days 298


    cb7 wrote: »
    Think I should give up work and give grinds in subjects I am qualified in!!! Not sure what to do - probably will have to teach it. Spoke to union they said it could take months to sort out. In the meantime I would have to teach it.

    Do you know any Physics? If you sat the paper now, what would you get?


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    jimbo28 wrote: »
    Not being rude, but what is the relevance of this to the discussion?Parents pay these people privately............they are not under the employment of the public service. Parents can do what they like with their own money!

    Op your first post indicated that you were not happy in being asked to teach the subject and that you would like opinions as to what you may or may not do, given some of the responses on here and that you have had some time to think about your next move, do you know what avenue you are going to take?

    I think you are missing the point yourself.. OP is highlighting the possibility that .Parents are forced to get grinds as the students are not being taught adequately by qualified teachers (of course there is always the issue of class sizes/discipline/motivation/issue for points etc.). The OP doesn't want to see this situation arising because of what he is being told to do. Hence these situations give rise to the grinds industry.

    By the way op is this non qualified grind teacher paying tax? You know you can get a reward from the taxman for dobbing him in!


  • #83
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    Armelodie wrote: »
    I think you are missing the point yourself.. OP is highlighting the possibility that .Parents are forced to get grinds as the students are not being taught adequately by qualified teachers (of course there is always the issue of class sizes/discipline/motivation/issue for points etc.). The OP doesn't want to see this situation arising because of what he is being told to do. Hence these situations give rise to the grinds industry.

    The op is about to single handedly provide employment for said grinds teachers himself, not to mention anyone else!

    Can you explain how I am missing the point?


  • #84
    cb7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭cb7


    I Know no Physics!!! Probably ZERO%!! I did Junior cert Science that is it. Never did it in college.
    No tax of course armelodie! Would not do that to someone.


  • #85
    cb7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭cb7


    Having spoke to a number of teachers about the matter it seems to go on a lot in schools. That is teachers teaching subjects they are not qualified in. Think I better go and study!!!


  • #86
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    What are the school's science facilities like? Like, do they have equipment for experiments?


  • #87
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    cb7 wrote: »
    I Know no Physics!!! Probably ZERO%!! I did Junior cert Science that is it. Never did it in college.
    No tax of course armelodie! Would not do that to someone.

    If anybody on here says that it is o.k for the op to take that class after writing this, then as far as Im concerned they should not be let in the front door of a school, lest anywhere near a classroom.

    And Im the one missing the point :mad:.......the wood from the trees springs to mind!


  • #88
    yellowlabrador
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭yellowlabrador


    This is what you get from teaching to the exam. Physics is a serious subject, lc students might want to study this at uni. My advise is to get to grips with your maths too, and better still, get a maths teacher to teach it instead.


  • #89
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    jimbo28 wrote: »
    If anybody on here says that it is o.k for the op to take that class after writing this, then as far as Im concerned they should not be let in the front door of a school, lest anywhere near a classroom.

    And Im the one missing the point :mad:.......the wood from the trees springs to mind!

    I'd agree with you but what's the alternative? It's too late to do anything about it now. OP has already contacted their union rep and if they refuse you've a class of students that have to either study physics outside of school with expensive grinds or drop the subject entirely.


  • #90
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    yellowlabrador wrote: »
    This is what you get from teaching to the exam. Physics is a serious subject, lc students might want to study this at uni. My advise is to get to grips with your maths too, and better still, get a maths teacher to teach it instead.

    A science teacher who is used to working in a lab, and has a scientific background from university is a much better candidate to take the class.

    The level if maths required for second level physics is not as detailed as is made out in my opinion. The ability to manipulate equations, plot data, and investigate the relationship between variables is all that is needed. Something a biology graduate should be familiar with.

    OP, it is a difficult situation that you are in, but if you have any questions, or want advice, feel free to PM me.


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    [QUOTE= It's too late to do anything about it now. OP has already contacted their union rep and if they refuse you've a class of students that have to either study physics outside of school with expensive grinds or drop the subject entirely.[/QUOTE]

    I don't accept that at all, maybe teachers and management need to be reminded that if a subject is being run, then the school has a legal obligation to provide a person that is capable of teaching it.

    How can the union refuse such a request.........what are teachers paying subscriptions for if they cannot sort out matters like these.I know it happens....but it is disgusting to think that one should have to go so far as to have to get the union involved.

    The alternative is go get a competent teacher full stop.


Advertisement