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Asked to teach a subject not qualified in

245

Comments

  • #32
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    Seanchai wrote: »
    What, then, is the cause of this if not the recruitment system?

    Second, I believe the choice the OP has what the English might term a 'Hobson's Choice' - i.e. not a real choice if he wishes to keep his job. Would you be willing to risk your job by declining the request of your boss, a request which countless of your colleagues and competitors accept each September?

    I have done in the past and accepted the consequences, my choice.


  • #33
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    I'm wondering, not stating anything. Your snide comment and hilarious smiley are entirely wasted.

    My experience with our social welfare system would tell me that this may be an issue. I and many of my colleagues were strongly "encouraged" by sw officers to apply for jobs for which we were not qualified.


    And i wonder why teachers get such a hard time? Would you like dermatologist pulling out your teeth?


  • #34
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    jimbo28 wrote: »
    And i wonder why teachers get such a hard time? Would you like dermatologist pulling out your teeth?

    What has this got to do with what I would like?

    I don't remember giving my opinion on the matter either way. I merely tried to tease out some considerations of making a decision to say no, then you jumped in with your sarcasm.

    You think it's wrong to take such a position. We get it.

    I'd like to actually discuss the topic.


  • #35
    Dave0301
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    jimbo28 wrote: »
    I have done in the past and accepted the consequences, my choice.

    What happened, if you don't mind me asking?


  • #36
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    There is no discussion............If he is not able for it, he should not be doing it. FULL STOP.Its turning out to be a nice day outside, enjoy the rest of the discussion folks.


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  • #37
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    Dave0301 wrote: »
    What happened, if you don't mind me asking?


    I don't think it pertinent to discuss it on a public forum, you will just have to take my word for it.


  • #38
    Dilly.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭Dilly.


    doc_17 wrote: »
    It is unfair of course. Who said it wasn't? But the first victim here is the teacher. There are no winners.

    Well the fact that you thinks its unfair on the teacher to have to give up their job without mentioning the effect on the students if they keep their job doesn't show much concern for them.


  • #39
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Dilly. wrote: »
    Well the fact that you thinks its unfair on the teacher to have to give up their job without mentioning the effect on the students if they keep their job doesn't show much concern for them.

    And what if the result of refusal is simply that the students don't get any class?


  • #40
    Dilly.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭Dilly.


    Miss Lockhart wrote: »
    And what if the result of refusal is simply that the students don't get any class?

    There is more to being a teacher than relaying information from a book. Any teacher worth their salt will want to instill a passion for the subject within their pupils. If the teacher does not understand or have an interest in the subject themselves they will not be able to do this. I feel for the teacher being put in this position, I really do, but to accept this job is unfair on the students. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    Do you think it is ok for the subject to be offered and delivered by someone who is not qualified and not confident in delivering it?


  • #41
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Dilly. wrote: »
    There is more to being a teacher than relaying information from a book. Any teacher worth their salt will want to instill a passion for the subject within their pupils. If the teacher does not understand or have an interest in the subject themselves they will not be able to do this. I feel for the teacher being put in this position, I really do, but to accept this job is unfair on the students. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    Do you think it is ok for the subject to be offered and delivered by someone who is not qualified and not confident in delivering it?

    I completely understand this position. But the reality is that a huge number of parents snd pupils feel differently when the alternative is no class. I have seen it time and again in my school and the school I attended. Campaigns for minority subjects even when told the only option would be being taught by an unqualified teacher. Much anger at management unwilling to facilitate it.


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  • #42
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,308 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Dilly. wrote: »
    There is more to being a teacher than relaying information from a book. Any teacher worth their salt will want to instill a passion for the subject within their pupils. If the teacher does not understand or have an interest in the subject themselves they will not be able to do this. I feel for the teacher being put in this position, I really do, but to accept this job is unfair on the students. Two wrongs do not make a right.

    Do you think it is ok for the subject to be offered and delivered by someone who is not qualified and not confident in delivering it?

    I'm assuming that the OP is already there in that school teaching what they are qualified to teach and that in addition to that they are being asked to teach Physics this coming year. It's not like there is a Physics job being advertised and they are applying for it, knowing they aren't able to do it.


  • #43
    Dilly.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭Dilly.


    doc_17 wrote: »
    I'm assuming that the OP is already there in that school teaching what they are qualified to teach and that in addition to that they are being asked to teach Physics this coming year. It's not like there is a Physics job being advertised and they are applying for it, knowing they aren't able to do it.

    surely that would put him in a stronger position to refuse it. I don't understand what your getting at here.

    Miss Lockhart thats very interesting to get an 'inside' perspective. Its very sad to see the state our education system is in that parents and students actually fight to have a subject taught by a teacher unqualified in that subject as their only other option is to miss out altogether. I just think physics of all subjects, you either know it or you don't, I can't imagine trying to bluff it the way you might be able to get by with some other subjects!


  • #44
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    doc_17 wrote: »
    I'm assuming that the OP is already there in that school teaching what they are qualified to teach and that in addition to that they are being asked to teach Physics this coming year. It's not like there is a Physics job being advertised and they are applying for it, knowing they aren't able to do it.

    What you have just said changes nothing, he IS being offered/asked to teach the class, whether he applied for it or not is irrelevant, it looks like you picked a sentence that was clearly self explanatory to anyone who read the thread and are trying to make a justification for said teacher. I also think dilly asked you a very good question" Do you think it is ok for the subject to be offered and delivered by someone who is not qualified and not confident in delivering it?"

    That is unless the op was down at the dole office and was told to apply for it, even though he stated that he is not qualifed to do the job........you gotta love the civil service...................sure wont ya be grand doin the bit of extra teachin, sure who'll know the difference......good man....now off ya go. Next please!!!!!


  • #45
    Days 298
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Days 298


    Biology and JC science teacher teaching leaving cert physics :eek: Unless she has a maths degree the students haven't a hope. It will be hard for students when everyone in the classroom is trying to learn and understand the stuff.


  • #46
    billybartley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭billybartley


    I really do sympathize with the opening poster. It is a very tough situation to be placed, particularly if the poster is not permanent.

    My initial reaction is that the poster should discuss the matter with the headmaster, and explain the position. I think the advice that he should muddle through is silly and far fetched. This is not a fluffy subject like english or music- you need to have deep understanding of physics to teach it. What's more students are not going to succeed if the teacher is merely regurgitating material from a textbook or online notes.

    The point about being king is utter nonsense. In a subject like physics, if you don't know what you are talking about, you are jester not the king. Students who select physics are likely to be above average, and will very quickly figure out whether the teacher knows physics.

    So, my advice, is say no - but say that your reason is concern for the integrity of the school, and the student's learning. Maybe they can pick someone else, and you can teach biology or geography


  • #47
    plein de force
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭plein de force


    i am absolutely shocked by some people on this thread thinking the OP should try blagging it. teaching a subject you are not qualified in nor have more than rudementary knowledge in is just asking for trouble, if you have no clue it will quickly become apparent to the class and they will suffer obviously. im not in teaching but i can just imagine being asked to teach accounting because i did a few modules of it in college, i wouldnt have a clue. If this is what teaching has been reduced to in ireland, basically reading a book out to a class, i fear its days as a noble profession are numbered.


  • #48
    billybartley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭billybartley


    Well said.


  • #49
    cb7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭cb7


    I personally don't agree with teachers teaching subjects that they are not teaching council recognized for. However I am not going to lose my job over this. I have talked to the principal and expressed my concern I even have it in writing to principal that I feel incompetent/unqualified in the subject. If I am made to teach it I will have to I suppose. Someone retired last yr (part time teacher) so that's why I am being asked to teach it. They are not being replaced. Its a small school.


  • #50
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,407 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    billybartley wrote: »
    I really do sympathize with the opening poster. It is a very tough situation to be placed, particularly if the poster is not permanent.

    My initial reaction is that the poster should discuss the matter with the headmaster, and explain the position. I think the advice that he should muddle through is silly and far fetched. This is not a fluffy subject like english or music- you need to have deep understanding of physics to teach it. What's more students are not going to succeed if the teacher is merely regurgitating material from a textbook or online notes.

    The point about being king is utter nonsense. In a subject like physics, if you don't know what you are talking about, you are jester not the king. Students who select physics are likely to be above average, and will very quickly figure out whether the teacher knows physics.

    So, my advice, is say no - but say that your reason is concern for the integrity of the school, and the student's learning. Maybe they can pick someone else, and you can teach biology or geography

    Are you a teacher or just trolling the forum?

    English and Music are not fluffy subjects, I would not teach them for love nor money. I wouldn't know where to start. What's with the subject snobbery?


    OP - Are you permanent or part time?
    Is there anyone else in the school that would be in a better position to teach physics other than you, e.g. a chemistry or engineering teacher?
    Is this situation as a result of a teacher leaving/retiring and the school can't hire a new teacher due to cutbacks and are just trying to make do with the staff available, hence you being asked to teach physics?
    Is this a short term thing for one year (while a teacher is away on career break, maternity leave etc) or is it likely to develop into a long term thing?


    Assuming refusing isn't an option and that you teach junior cert science, while not ideal the leaving cert course in physics like any other is building on what was done at junior cert. Take out the physics book and study it, and do the exam questions to go with each section until you understand it, if you have leaving certs.


  • #51
    cb7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭cb7


    No other teachers able to teach it in school. Other teacher has Biology like me. There not replacing retired teacher due to cutbacks. In school a few years have CID contract (thank god). Concerned I could be redeployed to another school. I love the school I am in.


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  • #52
    Alqua
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭Alqua


    billybartley wrote: »
    My initial reaction is that the poster should discuss the matter with the headmaster, and explain the position. I think the advice that he should muddle through is silly and far fetched. This is not a fluffy subject like english or music- you need to have deep understanding of physics to teach it. What's more students are not going to succeed if the teacher is merely regurgitating material from a textbook or online notes.

    Agree that the OP needs to have a serious chat with the principal about this - and not wanting to go off topic but could not ignore - music or English are not fluffy subjects, in the slightest(!!) Music is hugely specialised in the same way that physics is. If what you're trying to get at is something that you could just 'pick up a book' and teach, music couldn't be further from that - nor English, or any subject for that matter. If that were the case one teacher would 'fit all' and the OP wouldn't have posted this thread!


  • #53
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    Alqua wrote: »
    Agree that the OP needs to have a serious chat with the principal about this - and not wanting to go off topic but could not ignore - music or English are not fluffy subjects, in the slightest(!!) Music is hugely specialised in the same way that physics is. If what you're trying to get at is something that you could just 'pick up a book' and teach, music couldn't be further from that - nor English, or any subject for that matter. If that were the case one teacher would 'fit all' and the OP wouldn't have posted this thread!

    Op, given that you are on a C.I.D, you really do need to stand up and be counted.Principals will only pull this sort of rubbish on people they think they can get way with doing it to.If we as teachers allow this sort of carry on to go unchallenged in schools it will only get worse.It really is a balls of a situation to be in, but dont be afraid to rattle a cage or two man, this is a profession, and because of this, we need to make professional choices.You will regret taking this later on if the bright students do not get what they want from it, that your own reputation will be questioned as a competent teacher...............say you have 20 students in the class and 15 of them go getting grinds due to your shortcomings, how do you think that will reflect on you? In time people will respect you more if you make the hard decision, not the one to keep people happy, we as a nation are at that for long enough!


  • #54
    billybartley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭billybartley


    Would another way of looking at the matter be redeployment. That as part of the croke park deal, the op is being redeployed?

    Does this argument have merit?


  • #55
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    The op will not be redeployed unless he has to be.He is not a sacrificial lamb, nor should he be afraid of being one, he has gone about things in the correct manner by putting it all in writing and stating his case, if he is in a union they can use this in the future if needs be. billy while i agree with one or two things in your first post, Im afraid you do not seem to be well informed on the state of the Irish education system and its practices.Best quit while you can before the teachers really go to town on you;)


  • #56
    billybartley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23 ✭billybartley


    One important point in all this, is when did the op lfind out that they had to teach this new subject?


  • #57
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    billybartley wrote: »
    So it is a case of redeployment

    A science teacher could be/should be redeployed to teach biology, chemistry, physics, or geography?

    Would it make sense then for teachers to upskill during the summer learning other subjects to increase flexibility?

    Billybartley........go for a pint man;) if you wish to know about the sector you should do some research, there is a lot of info out there about the profession. Read it, then realise that alot of it is rhetoric and like every other profession, rules are bent and broken to accomodate circumstance.But realise that some of us do fight the good fight and we are not all yes men to the establishment............even some yes men are not yes men,it just appears that way,make sense of that and then order another one for the road:)


  • #58
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    billybartley wrote: »
    One important point in all this, is when did the op lfind out that they had to teach this new subject?

    I thought about this myself, if he knew all summer that it was coming and is only looking at the book now.........well that speaks for itself.But if he only found out recently well then that's a different matter.By the way im not attacking you op, but this has really gotten my back up! It reeks of amateurism in what is supposedly a professional sector!


  • #59
    seavill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    billybartley wrote: »
    One important point in all this, is when did the op lfind out that they had to teach this new subject?

    Probably yesterday I know thats when I found out what I would be teaching. A neighbour wont get her timetable until they return to school next week.

    I think it is very easy for people to say "no" here but not as easy when in the position.

    I personally have used the union rep to help out on things like this before. I was being forced into having 28 students in the Woodwork room in the past - only 24 sets of ewuipment, 24 tables, vices etc. no room for the extra 4. Once the union rep had my back and she saw it was more than just me there was a change in policy.


  • #60
    jimbo28
    Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭jimbo28


    seavill wrote: »
    Probably yesterday I know thats when I found out what I would be teaching. A neighbour wont get her timetable until they return to school next week.

    I think it is very easy for people to say "no" here but not as easy when in the position.

    I personally have used the union rep to help out on things like this before. I was being forced into having 28 students in the Woodwork room in the past - only 24 sets of ewuipment, 24 tables, vices etc. no room for the extra 4. Once the union rep had my back and she saw it was more than just me there was a change in policy.

    Now thats talking sense.......do not be afraid to use the resources available.


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  • #61
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,308 ✭✭✭doc_17


    jimbo28 wrote: »
    I also think dilly asked you a very good question" Do you think it is ok for the subject to be offered and delivered by someone who is not qualified and not confident in delivering it?"

    No sure if that's one question or two but I'd be a bit surprised at anyone who has read the forum and doesn't know my answer(s) to that.

    But just to clarify, the principal is wrong to to ask this person to teach a course they are not familiar with.


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