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Irish Family In Cairo (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

2

Comments

  • #32
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    me bolly wrote: »
    Possibility that MB is now seen as a long term threat to the stability of the already fractured country?
    Seen by whom? The voters that elected them in a free and democratic election?:confused:


  • #33
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    While there was public resentment of Morsi, and while there were peaceful protests against him, the fact that the army have basically spent their time slaughtering Egyptians and imposing martial law is hardly a better democratic alternative to Morsi. Come on.

    Hear, hear.

    A bad politician and a bad government are much better than a military coup and strangle-hold on democracy.

    "We're going to ensure you have free and fair elections very soon, just trust us. These will be free and fair and deliver the type of democratic governance you, the Egyptian People deserve, not like that bad, silly, democratically elected governement you had recently."

    - The Egyptian Army


  • #34
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »
    Seen by whom? The voters that elected them in a free and democratic election?:confused:

    Free and democratic election?
    I too am confused by your assuredness.


  • #35
    Sir Humphrey Appleby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    me bolly wrote: »
    Free and democratic election?
    I too am confused by your assuredness.

    Well if you care to link to one respected organization which disputed the fairness of the last election in Egypt I will happily read it.
    Nice deflection though!


  • #36
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    The MB hijacked the revolution in Egypt. They are an organised political party that has been around since '20's. They have been waiting in the wings for their opportunity and they seized it amongst the turmoil after Mubarak was removed from power.

    They won the election for a number of reasons:
    1. lack of a coherent and organised party to represent the instigators of the revolution i.e. middle class, educated, disenfranchised youth who wanted a western style democracy and constitution.
    2. They took advantage of the large poor, uneducated lower class who are religious. They did this by bribing them with food stuffs and other goods to gain their vote and they also worked with the local mosques to frighten people into voting for them with the message that if they didn’t then they would be sinning and end up in hell.
    3. They had funding from some of the more extreme Arab regimes and states to further the cause of Islam in Egypt.

    They won the election but were they the government the people of Egypt wanted? No and that was evidenced in the huge turnouts for the protests to remove Morsi from power prior to the army actually doing it. You will find that the army still has a large majority of the popular support in Egypt even in light of their brutal dealings with the MB supporters.

    It's easy to criticise from afar but people aren’t cognizant of the reality of the MB regime. Morsi tried to take emergency powers for himself early on into his term, he dismantled the cross party committee which was developing a constitution and instead rushed through an Islamic constitution that didn’t protect the rights of any minority groups and put Islam at the centre of the state. They were also working closely with Hamas and in negotiations to give away large parts of Sinai to them. They were also changing the school curriculum to reflect a more religious and fundamentalist ideology. Cairo for many months leading up to the protests was having power outages that lasted days at a time. Fuel (petrol) was extremely scarce and had become unaffordable and the government was doing little to repair the broken economy and tourist industry.

    So while the army are dealing quite brutally with the MB, all isn’t quite what it seems. The brotherhood want civil war, they are driven by an ideology that they will not compromise and it’s an ideology that is at odds with the majority of people in Egypt. The protests are not all peaceful, they have weapons and they have been engaging the army and the police in open warfare. Most people in Egypt want the MB off the streets and they want to be able to get on with their lives and go about repairing their country.

    Unfortunately you have people from other countries who think its good idea to fly into the middle of this mess and join in the protests even though they are insulated from the reality of actually having to live there. This Irish family has had plenty of opportunity to remove themselves from danger but they decided to fly out there and put themselves at the centre of it. Now you have to question any parent who would put their children in harm’s way to fight an ideological battle in a country you don’t live in? They don’t deserve to be treated badly but they have put themselves in harm’s way.


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  • #37
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Playboy wrote: »
    It's easy to criticise from afar but people aren’t cognizant of the reality of the MB regime. Morsi tried to take emergency powers for himself early on into his term, he dismantled the cross party committee which was developing a constitution and instead rushed through an Islamic constitution that didn’t protect the rights of any minority groups and put Islam at the centre of the state.
    Nobody is defending Morsi's politics or the MB's ideological position.

    If they are, let them come forward and say so!

    No, people are criticizing the Army, the coup, and innocent lives being taken.

    Can people take a step back here and look at what they're saying
    • Morsi makes the constitution immune from legal challenge: Morsi is the bad guy (fair enough), but
    • The army suspends the constitution the people voted for 8 months ago, shoots hundreds of civilians: army is the good guy.


    Just how far are people willing to go in this inexcusable defence of the Egyptian army regime? It's senseless.


  • #38
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    • Morsi makes the constitution immune from legal challenge: Morsi is the bad guy (fair enough), but
    • The army suspends the constitution the people voted for 8 months ago, shoots hundreds of civilians: army is the good guy.


    Just how far are people willing to go in this inexcusable defence of the Egyptian army regime? It's senseless.

    But thats exactly the point, the constitution that was pushed through wasnt the constitution that was voted for. Thats why the first thing the interim government and the army did was get rid of it. People in Egypt dont want a version of an Islamic theocracy in their country. It is an ideological battle and the army has the popular support of most Egyptians. The MB protests are tiny in comparison to the protests to remove Morsi. No one is defending the brutality of the army but to frame the discussion in the way you have done and most of the western media has done is extremely simplisitic and not reflective of whats going on if you actually speak to many egyptians


  • #39
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Playboy wrote: »
    3. They had funding from some of the more extreme Arab regimes and states to further the cause of Islam in Egypt.

    *AHEM* the military regime are being funded by Saudi Arabia........

    You do raise a lot of valid points in regards to the MB, and people were right to protest them, but a violent coup can hardly be described a democratic, or as any kind of solution.
    Playboy wrote: »
    They were also working closely with Hamas and in negotiations to give away large parts of Sinai to them.

    Wow that's news to me. Care to provide a link, as I completed missed that one. Rather strange thing to do, give away large part of the Sinai, and for the worlds media to not report such a major story.
    Playboy wrote: »
    The brotherhood want civil war,

    No thats the army, otherwise, they wouldn't have escalated the violence. The army have done the vast majority of the killing in the past few days. 100s have been killed by the army, and not the Brotherhood.
    Playboy wrote: »
    The protests are not all peaceful, they have weapons and they have been engaging the army and the police in open warfare.

    What is happening in Syria for example is open warfare between 2 sides, that is not the case in Egypt. What we have is one side do the vast vast majority of the killing, and I find it very hard to believe that every media organisation has some how missed open warfare between 2 sides.


  • #40
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Playboy wrote: »
    The MB hijacked the revolution in Egypt. They are an organised political party that has been around since '20's. They have been waiting in the wings for their opportunity and they seized it amongst the turmoil after Mubarak was removed from power.

    They won the election for a number of reasons:

    They won it mainly by getting more votes than anyone else.


  • #41
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Hosni's got out!

    Egypt's Hosni Mubarak released from prison


    Still under house arrest however. Still a major blow for any claims of the military democratic credentials.


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  • #42
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    wes wrote: »
    You do raise a lot of valid points in regards to the MB, and people were right to protest them, but a violent coup can hardly be described a democratic, or as any kind of solution.

    Its obviously not the optimal solution but its a solution with popular support unfortunately.


    wes wrote: »
    Wow that's news to me. Care to provide a link, as I completed missed that one. Rather strange thing to do, give away large part of the Sinai, and for the worlds media to not report such a major story.

    Dont think it got much traction this side of the world as it had not happened yet but this has been noise coming out of egypt for over a year now given Hamas and the MB's close ties. Speak to Egyptians and this is a major concern from them and one of the drivers for the protests to oust Morsi. Seemingly property laws had been changed and talks were ongoing to extend Gaza into Sinai but obv it woudlnt be under Israeli control. with a quick google this was the best i could find.. sorry its not a better source

    http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentP/1/71258/Egypt/Wild-rumours-of-Hamas-interference-in-Egypt-find-a.aspx

    wes wrote: »
    No thats the army, otherwise, they wouldn't have escalated the violence. The army have done the vast majority of the killing in the past few days. 100s have been killed by the army, and not the Brotherhood.

    The last thing the army want is civil war. The might want to put this revolt down quickly and brutally but they do not want a protracted battle with a fundamentalist opponent. Civil War helps achieve the objectives of the MB as without it they are dead and buried as a political power in Egypt.


    wes wrote: »
    What is happening in Syria for example is open warfare between 2 sides, that is not the case in Egypt. What we have is one side do the vast vast majority of the killing, and I find it very hard to believe that every media organisation has some how missed open warfare between 2 sides.

    Because one group is better at killing than the other doesnt mean it isnt open warfare. Many of the protests have been anything but peaceful and the army has consitently claimed they have been openly attacked and shot at before they retaliated. I'm not trying to justify the army's behaviour in any way but the MB and their supporters are not innocent victims in this confrontation. You have to ask yourself how come the army still maintain popular support in the face of the accusations of brutality. Many people believe the MB in Egypt to be a brutal, facist and corrupt organisation and have no sympathy for them. Rightly or wrongly that is the reality.


  • #43
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Playboy wrote: »
    But thats exactly the point, the constitution that was pushed through wasnt the constitution that was voted for.
    Only one constitution was voted for, and that was the constitution of last December. What's changed in that?

    Again - nobody's promoting Mursi's ideology, it's about condemning the army's actions. Just like the Irish-Egyptian siblings were doing.


  • #44
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Only one constitution was voted for, and that was the constitution of last December. What's changed in that?

    Again - nobody's promoting Mursi's ideology, it's about condemning the army's actions. Just like the Irish-Egyptian siblings were doing.

    It was forced through against promises that had been made prior to the MB taking office. There was no referendum to ratify it


  • #45
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Playboy wrote: »
    It was forced through against promises that had been made prior to the MB taking office. There was no referendum to ratify it
    There was no referendum to ratify what...? promises?

    there was a constitutional referendum.... remember?


  • #46
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »

    Again - nobody's promoting Mursi's ideology, it's about condemning the army's actions. Just like the Irish-Egyptian siblings were doing.

    The Irish family were out there to fight a political battle that wasnt theirs to fight. They went to Egypt prior to any army massacres to support the reinstatement of Morsi.


  • #47
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Playboy wrote: »
    Its obviously not the optimal solution but its a solution with popular support unfortunately.

    It certainly has some support, but then so does the Brotherhood. Popular support is no substitute for the ballot box, and is just a form of mob rule.
    Playboy wrote: »
    Dont think it got much traction this side of the world as it had not happened yet but this has been noise coming out of egypt for over a year now given Hamas and the MB's close ties.

    The reason it hasn't gotten much traction is because its clearly a fictional claim. People have a habit of making stuff up when they want to stir things up, and this is just one example.

    What possible motivation could the MB have for giving up any part of the Sinai to Hamas. Close ties is not enough of a reason at all.
    Playboy wrote: »
    Speak to Egyptians and this is a major concern from them and one of the drivers for the protests to oust Morsi.

    I doubt it was a major concern at all, as its the first I am hearing about this as any kind of reason for the protest for anyone.
    Playboy wrote: »
    Seemingly property laws had been changed and talks were ongoing to extend Gaza into Sinai but obv it woudlnt be under Israeli control. with a quick google this was the best i could find.. sorry its not a better source

    http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentP/1/71258/Egypt/Wild-rumours-of-Hamas-interference-in-Egypt-find-a.aspx

    Your own link calls it wild rumours. The claims are clearly not true, and is an example the sort of nonsense people will come to smear there other guy.
    Playboy wrote: »
    The last thing the army want is civil war.

    100s of deaths prove otherwise.
    Playboy wrote: »
    The might want to put this revolt down quickly and brutally but they do not want a protracted battle with a fundamentalist opponent. Civil War helps achieve the objectives of the MB as without it they are dead and buried as a political power in Egypt.

    Except there a political party, that has 0 change of beating a well funded and trained Egyptian army. There is no good reason for the Muslim Brotherhood to want a civil war at all.
    Playboy wrote: »
    Because one group is better at killing than the other doesnt mean it isnt open warfare.

    No, one group has been doing most of the killing while there other has been engaging in protest.
    Playboy wrote: »
    Many of the protests have been anything but peaceful and the army has consitently claimed they have been openly attacked and shot at before they retaliated.

    The armies claims are lies, and they were caught out lieing several times by the media.
    Playboy wrote: »
    I'm not trying to justify the army's behaviour in any way but the MB and their supporters are not innocent victims in this confrontation.

    Except that most of them are innocent victims guilty of only protesting.
    Playboy wrote: »
    You have to ask yourself how come the army still maintain popular support in the face of the accusations of brutality.

    Some people don't give a crap if there opponents are killed.
    Playboy wrote: »
    Many people believe the MB in Egypt to be a brutal, facist and corrupt organisation and have no sympathy for them. Rightly or wrongly that is the reality.

    So you just answered you own questioned, surely people who believe that, have no issues with those people being murdered. TBH, they can't claim to be any better than the Brotherhood considering how clearly blood thirsty the Junta they support is.


  • #48
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Playboy wrote: »
    They went to Egypt prior to any army massacres to support the reinstatement of Morsi.

    There is no proof of that, and its even addressed in the first post of this thread.
    danniemcq wrote: »
    Please don't argue facts.
    • They are Irish citizens
    • The Irish government is involved and trying to get more information
    • They travelled over before the last uprising.
    • They are currently being held and the charges include "murder, arson, belonging to an armed gang and possession of arms and explosives."


  • #49
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Playboy wrote: »
    The Irish family were out there to fight a political battle that wasnt theirs to fight. They went to Egypt prior to any army massacres to support the reinstatement of Morsi.
    The sister who is not in Egypt has said they go there every year during summer holidays. Are you saying they go there every year to cause political trouble?

    Can you clarify your earlier statement on the constitution?


  • #50
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Playboy wrote: »
    The Irish family were out there to fight a political battle that wasnt theirs to fight. They went to Egypt prior to any army massacres to support the reinstatement of Morsi.


    Afaik they went in June, before he was overthrown.


  • #51
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    There was no referendum to ratify what...? promises?

    there was a constitutional referendum.... remember?

    There was a draft constitution rushed through parliment and put to a vote in controversial cirumstances. There was allegations of vote rigging and a really low turnout with many people not even understanding the content of the constitution. Many people abstained and even in these circumstances the constitution didnt pass in Cairo where the majority of the educated population reside.

    The constitution was not one that was reflective of the aspirations of the revolution and was not inclusive as was promised. You have to remember that Egypt does not have any of the institutions of a democracy to afford the protections and governance that we enjoy in western democracies when going through a process such as this. Maybe you didnt see that size of the protests to remove Morsi from power?


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  • #52
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Playboy wrote: »
    Maybe you didnt see that size of the protests to remove Morsi from power?

    They were certainly huge, but if we are to follow your logic, then the Islamists in Pakistan, can remove the current government, as they have always managed to hold massive protests, but never quite manage to succeed at the ballot box for some odd reason. Perhaps, the answer is that large protests, do no indicate the will of the electorate?


  • #53
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    wes wrote: »
    It certainly has some support, but then so does the Brotherhood. Popular support is no substitute for the ballot box, and is just a form of mob rule.

    Not some support... the vast majority of support. The turnout for the MB protestors is pitiful in comparison to the protests to oust Morsi. I know many Egyptians in Cairo and i have family there so i do have an insight into what people are thinking and feeling on the street.

    wes wrote: »
    The reason it hasn't gotten much traction is because its clearly a fictional claim. People have a habit of making stuff up when they want to stir things up, and this is just one example.

    What possible motivation could the MB have for giving up any part of the Sinai to Hamas. Close ties is not enough of a reason at all.

    Clearly? I dont think clearly at all as many educated people in Egypt believe the claims. Hamas and the MB are intrinsically linked... look at Morsi's own history with Hamas? It makes sense that the MB would try and help Hamas in Gaza by giving them a route out of Gaza in Sinai where they are not under the thumb of Israel.

    wes wrote: »
    I doubt it was a major concern at all, as its the first I am hearing about this as any kind of reason for the protest for anyone.

    Well we have to disagree, I know and am in contact with many Egyptians, some of whom were at the centre of the revolution. They all seem to believe it and since I'm hearing it over here as one of the many reasons why people wanted Morsi out then I'm going to tend to believe it. For you its hearsay so I dont blame you for disregarding it.




    wes wrote: »
    100s of deaths prove otherwise.

    not sure i understand? Why would they army want a civil war. They are obv trying to break the MB brutally and quickly in order to avoid a civil war.

    wes wrote: »

    Except there a political party, that has 0 change of beating a well funded and trained Egyptian army. There is no good reason for the Muslim Brotherhood to want a civil war at all.

    Without civil war the MB are nothing. Their leaders in jail and their power base broken. Hamas their friends have a lot of experience of fighting a more sophisticated enemy to further an ideology.

    wes wrote: »
    No, one group has been doing most of the killing while there other has been engaging in protest.

    Most of the killing ... not all. 26 police killed recently?


    wes wrote: »
    The armies claims are lies, and they were caught out lieing several times by the media.

    Except that most of them are innocent victims guilty of only protesting.

    Some people don't give a crap if there opponents are killed.

    So you just answered you own questioned, surely people who believe that, have no issues with those people being murdered. TBH, they can't claim to be any better than the Brotherhood considering how clearly blood thirsty the Junta they support is.

    I have no doubt the army are lieing but so are the MB. You have essentially 2 fascist organisations fighting with each other. One is no better than the other imo, both are detrimental for the future of egypt. I'm not trying to justify their actions but it is a far more complex situation than the western media are describing.


  • #54
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Playboy wrote: »
    The constitution was not one that was reflective of the aspirations of the revolution and was not inclusive as was promised.

    But it was ratified by the people. So when you said...
    Playboy wrote: »
    There was no referendum to ratify it
    ..what's that about?

    Eight months ago the majority ratified this constitution. The army have suspended it and have killed about 1000 people in the process. And you think that doesn't deserve a protest by people holding joint Egyptian citizenship?


  • #55
    Boombastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    wes wrote: »
    There is no proof of that, and its even addressed in the first post of this thread.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/irish-in-cairo-reportedly-jailed-as-charges-investigated-1.1499862
    The siblings were on their annual family holiday to Egypt when they decided to take part in protests against the military overthrow last month of Mohammed Morsi, Egypt’s first democratically elected president.


  • #56
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    wes wrote: »
    They were certainly huge, but if we are to follow your logic, then the Islamists in Pakistan, can remove the current government, as they have always managed to hold massive protests, but never quite manage to succeed at the ballot box for some odd reason. Perhaps, the answer is that large protests, do no indicate the will of the electorate?

    I think you are under representing the scale of the anti Morsi protests. They were not just large... they were country wide and were bigger than the protests to oust Mubarak.


  • #57
    Playboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Playboy


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    But it was ratified by the people. So when you said...

    ..what's that about?

    Eight months ago the majority ratified this constitution. The army have suspended it and have killed about 1000 people in the process. And you think that doesn't deserve a protest by people holding joint Egyptian citizenship?

    The majority didnt ratify... just look at the history of the issue. A 33% turnout with broken promises, rigging allegations and a huge amount of abstinations.


  • #58
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Playboy wrote: »
    I think you are under representing the scale of the anti Morsi protests. They were not just large... they were country wide and were bigger than the protests to oust Mubarak.

    I think the scale was exaggerated, with numbers of protesters varying by 10s of millions in some cases. The protest were huge, but it hardly justifies a violent coup.


  • #59
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Playboy wrote: »
    A 33% turnout with broken promises, rigging allegations and a huge amount of abstinations.
    A triad so forced you had to repeat one of the points.

    Low turnout is not fatal. The 2010 elections in Afghanistan produced the same turnout.

    Do non-democratic actors therefore have grounds for overthrowing the Afghan parliament?

    Sorry but you've no credibility on this. you came to the thread saying people didn't understand Egypt and needed to make themselves familiar with it, and it seems you didn't even know there was a constitutional referendum 8 months ago.


  • #60
    justanotherone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭justanotherone


    In the previous thread, there was discussion regarding the YouTube footage of several Malawa siblings addressing a " protest / rally / sit in / demonstration " from a stage at a to several thousand. They are introduced as from Ireland, although they speak in Egyptian or Arabic.

    Links to the video can be found on the Twitter feed of the Irish Atheist political commentator Mark Humphreys. (And I presume it is against the rules to link to an individual twitter account, so I won't, but I am sure those who want to look can google it.)

    More concerning is that Mark Humphreys writes extensively on his opinions on religion and he has an extensive page on the Clonskeagh Mosque and his concerns about who is invited to preach there, it's links to the Muslim Brotherhood, and some frankly rather disturbing and startling claims made not by him, but by others sources. Well worth a read for those who are concerned about what sort of Islam Ireland may import or allow to flourish. It also has a link to the video. http://markhumphrys.com/islam.ireland.html

    The DFA advice, which is hardly rocket science, more like stating the obvious was ; " We strongly advise Irish citizens who are currently in Egypt to exercise extreme caution, to avoid all protests and demonstrations and to monitor this travel advice and the local media for updates on the situation. Protests and demonstrations can turn violent, often without warning, and there have been cases where this violence has resulted in large numbers of deaths and injuries. If caught up in a demonstration, Irish citizens should not attempt to take photographs and should leave the area immediately. Irish citizens may wish to assess their need to remain in Egypt at this time

    But these people were not only avoiding protests, they were getting stuck in and even speaking at them !

    I really hope they are released unharmed and get a bit of cop on and get the hell out of there. I deplore the bloodshed in Egypt. But these folk really did make their bed before whipping out the Irish Passport.


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  • #61
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    justanotherone wrote: »
    In the .............., they were getting stuck in and even speaking at them !

    I really hope they are released unharmed and get a bit of cop on and get the hell out of there. I deplore the bloodshed in Egypt. But these folk really did make their bed before whipping out the Irish Passport.

    .....I don't think the opinions of Mr Humphreys are much of a basis to make any political decision on.


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