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Irish Family In Cairo (READ OP BEFORE POSTING)

  • 22-08-2013 12:35PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭


    Right lads and lasses,

    The last thread is no more, in an effort to keep the discussion going we are introducing some rules like we did with the Peru drug case.

    No attacking the poster. Be it snide comments, references or flat out name calling.

    Please remember that religion =/= race. I cannot stress this enough,

    Please don't argue facts.
    • They are Irish citizens
    • The Irish government is involved and trying to get more information
    • They travelled over before the last uprising.
    • They are currently being held and the charges include "murder, arson, belonging to an armed gang and possession of arms and explosives."

    What is still unknown is
    • Did they use Irish passports?
    • Where exactly they are being held?
    • Are they being treated well?

    All other information is either speculation in the paper or their family telling their side of the story.

    This is the only warning that will be given in this thread.


«13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭justanotherone


    Sorry, but could you please clarify the statement

    " Please remember that religion =/= race "


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    • They are Irish citizens
    • The Irish government is involved and trying to get more information
    • They travelled over before the last uprising but willingly attended the protests as they felt strongly enough about the issue
    • They are currently being held and the charges include "murder, arson, belonging to an armed gang and possession of arms and explosives."
    • One of them is a minor


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    ^^Race does not equal religion


    religion does not equal race :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭danniemcq


    Sorry, but could you please clarify the statement

    " Please remember that religion =/= race "
    Race is each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics. For example ethnicity or skin colour.

    Religion is a collection of belief systems and practices that may relate humanity to spirituality. Religion is intended to give meaning to life along with solving the origins of the universe.

    In the previous thread there appeared to be some confusion. Refering to Muslims as a race is the same as refering to Catholics as a race. Same goes for comments such as they look like Muslims.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭justanotherone


    danniemcq wrote: »

    Please don't argue facts.
    • They are currently being held and the charges include "murder, arson, belonging to an armed gang and possession of arms and explosives."

    I am not sure that is a " fact ".

    It appears to be attributed to the sister in Dublin, Nosayba Halawa, who previously gave us the " Irish teen beaten to hell " story, which turned out to have no foundation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,163 ✭✭✭✭danniemcq


    I am not sure that is a " fact ".

    It appears to be attributed to the sister in Dublin, Nosayba Halawa, who previously gave us the " Irish teen beaten to hell " story, which turned out to have no foundation.

    I'm basing this on what their lawyer has said. Despite it mentioning media reports the fact their lawyer is saying it gives it some credability.

    The lawyer told them about reports in the Egyptian media that they face charges including murder, arson, belonging to an armed gang and possession of arms and explosives.

    If someone can get a better source of their current situation please let me know.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    danniemcq wrote: »
    I'm basing this on what their lawyer has said. Despite it mentioning media reports the fact their lawyer is saying it gives it some credability.
    The MB and its supporters are proven liars. As for lawyers, they're not exactly known for their unfailing honesty.

    Just like the completely baseless "Irish teenager being beaten to hell" spin on the story, it's not a fact until it comes from an independent source.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    The MB and its supporters are proven liars. As for lawyers, they're not exactly known for their unfailing honesty.

    Just like the completely baseless "Irish teenager being beaten to hell" spin on the story, it's not a fact until it comes from an independent source.

    As opposed to the military who just ousted a democratically elected government? You believe them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭justanotherone


    Dear Moderator. I know it is slightly off topic, but please could you clarify what you mean by " Religion =/= Race "

    If that means that I think it means, I despair.

    Religion does not equal Race.

    Race is a biological, genetic event. Skin colour and physical features are pre-determined by a set of genetic events. There is no choice in race.

    Religion is a matter of choice. Nobody is actually born of a particular religion, regardless of what they may be told. People always have free will and conciousness. Religion is a choice. A difficult one in parts of the world where religious lunatics and fanatics hold reign. But a choice nonetheless.

    By suggesting Relgion =/= Race, it then gives excuses to the behaviour of the followers of that religion in that they had " no choice " in their beliefs or their subsequent behavior, and down that path is trouble.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    Lets quantify this with a question I placed earlier

    If this family were in Zimbabwe with banners calling for the removal of Mugabe or in Dubai shouting for the ousting of Shiek Mohammed and were jailed ,would as many people be as surprised or shocked?

    Would one expect that they would be beaten in custody or treated well?

    Would anyone expect anything but a rifle butt in the jaw if they protested in Zimbabwe?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭returnNull


    Dear Moderator. I know it is slightly off topic, but please could you clarify what you mean by " Religion =/= Race "

    If that means that I think it means, I despair.
    .................

    By suggesting Relgion =/= Race, it then gives excuses to the behaviour of the followers of that religion in that they had " no choice " in their beliefs or their subsequent behavior, and down that path is trouble.
    wha dafuq does your post mean??

    Its not that hard to understand.Its bad logic and is used often in argruments.

    Bombastic already explained it to you....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Dear Moderator. I know it is slightly off topic, but please could you clarify what you mean by " Religion =/= Race "

    Religion does not equal Race.

    That's what it means.

    "Religion =/= Race" =/= "Religion = Race"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    4 Irish citizens being held by a military junta for protesting against said juntas recent coup.
    Well if they were there before the coup happened then in their place I would have left immediately, that said the military junta has committed numerous atrocities since it seized power, so the government needs to do all in its power to get them back to Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭justanotherone


    returnNull wrote: »
    wha dafuq does your post mean??

    Its not that hard to understand.Its bad logic and is used often in argruments.

    Bombastic already explained it to you....

    I'm more concerned about what your post means.

    Religion does not equal Race, and I imagine the OP had a rather simplistic definition in terms of how people can be examined in terms of their social grouping.

    Race is a fixed and pre-determined state of being, which begins at our creation and continues until our death. Race is a genetic definition. There is nothing we can do to change it. We simply live with it. To be as short as possible, you will be born White, Black, Asian Subcontinental or Chinese and there is nothing whatsoever you can do to change that. Which is why "Racism" is a matter of concern.

    Religion however, is not fixed and not pre-determined. Religion is a choice. You are not forced to be of any religion. At any point in your life you can choose to join a religion, leave a religion, believe a religion, or consider a religion fake and fraudulent. You can change it. So it does not equal Race.

    Religions which hide behind " Race " and " Racism ", do so, because, when examined, questioned, criticised and held to account, and find themselves lacking or exposed, and cannot offer a credible defence, scream the " Racism " card to silence any inconvenient truths.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,496 ✭✭✭Boombastic


    ..............................

    Religions which hide behind " Race " and " Racism ", do so, because, when examined, questioned, criticised and held to account, and find themselves lacking or exposed, and cannot offer a credible defence, scream the " Racism " card to silence any inconvenient truths.

    Very good point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    It is widely accepted that there are countries that have had rulers who rule with an iron fist with the backing of the army.
    Regardless of how virtuous a cause a dissident group might have it is unlikely that their wishes will be heard let alone enforced unless the troops swing their way .
    How anyone can expect that Western models of protest can in anyway be applied in these countries is beyond belief
    Ones religion or nationality is irrelevant if you are a protester. You or your group will be seen as a threat ,by virtue of association ,to the sovereignty of the state akin to treason and it is not something that the rulers will tolerate.
    You could be throwing flowers and signing peace chants at the wall of soldiers and you will still be rounded as though you fired a rock.
    We do not know whether they entered the country on their Egyptian passports or Irish.
    We do not know whether they were red flagged by the authorities as soon as they arrived.
    One could argue that the wild claims of their treatment is being used to place pressure on international groups to put a foot to the neck of the government.
    Again why are people so shocked given the country is sadly moving towards a civil war.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    I'm more concerned about what your post means.

    Religion does not equal Race, and I imagine the OP had a rather simplistic definition in terms of how people can be examined in terms of their social grouping.

    :eek:

    Did you read my response? No one is saying that religion equals race. They are saying the exact opposite!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭justanotherone


    OK, thanks.

    But my reply was to returnNull.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    OK, thanks.

    But my reply was to returnNull.

    I understand that, but it was based on a misunderstanding of what =/= meant.

    Glad that's cleared up.

    I hope the family get home safely and I really, really hope that Eqypt can avoid a civil war.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    karma_ wrote: »
    As opposed to the military who just ousted a democratically elected government? You believe them?
    First things first, they removed that government on foot of the millions who protested against him and the growing public resentment towards them that preceded the protests. I don't know where people get the idea that the military got fed up of them and decided to remove them on a whim. I'd imagine that sort of confusion would happen if you only started following the story last week or so.

    As for who I believe, i'd sooner believe the military's promise to hold re-elections (as they did before) than believe anything the Muslim Brotherhood says, they're proven liars.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    First things first, they removed that government on foot of the millions who protested against him and the growing public resentment towards them that preceded the protests. I don't know where people get the idea that the military got fed up of them and decided to remove them on a whim. I'd imagine that sort of confusion would happen if you only started following the story last week or so.

    As for who I believe, i'd sooner believe the military's promise to hold re-elections (as they did before) than believe anything the Muslim Brotherhood says, they're proven liars.

    Are you disputing that the MB won the last democratic election? Or are you suggesting that every country with an elected but unpopular government be subject to a military coup!
    As for the military, literally thousands have died at their hands since the coup, but I suppose that makes anything they say more believable in your eyes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    Are you disputing that the MB won the last democratic election? Or are you suggesting that every country with an elected but unpopular government be subject to a military coup!
    As for the military, literally thousands have died at their hands since the coup, but I suppose that makes anything they say more believable in your eyes.

    Do you accept that Mugabe won the election void of bribery and threats?
    You cant be any the wiser as to whether the MB victory was bone fide or not .
    Books are easily cooked.
    Makes the idea of democracy a farce in some cases.
    One could take a large number of state elections with a pinch of salt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭Sir Humphrey Appleby


    me bolly wrote: »
    Do you accept that Mugabe won the election void of bribery and threats?
    You cant be any the wiser as to whether the MB victory was bone fide or not .
    Books are easily cooked.
    Makes the idea of democracy a farce in some cases.
    One could take a large number of state elections with a pinch of salt.

    To date nobody, including the military in Egypt, has disputed the veracity of the election result.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    Leadership change in Egypt only 32 years ago came about by the assassination of Anwar Sadat by the millirary on parade
    Amazingly Mubarak who was sitting front row bedside Sadat escaped unscathed.
    Rose to power thereafter.
    No election just brutal force a common thread in Middle Eastern countries down through the centuries.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    First things first, they removed that government on foot of the millions who protested against him and the growing public resentment towards them that preceded the protests.
    While there was public resentment of Morsi, and while there were peaceful protests against him, the fact that the army have basically spent their time slaughtering Egyptians and imposing martial law is hardly a better democratic alternative to Morsi. Come on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'm more concerned about what your post means.

    Religion does not equal Race......

    That's what the OP said.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    To date nobody, including the military in Egypt, has disputed the veracity of the election result.

    And that's why now the very military are attempting to quell the MB protests rather than supporting them .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    While there was public resentment of Morsi, and while there were peaceful protests against him, the fact that the army have basically spent their time slaughtering Egyptians and imposing martial law is hardly a better democratic alternative to Morsi. Come on.

    Possibility that MB is now seen as a long term threat to the stability of the already fractured country?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    me bolly wrote: »
    Possibility that MB is now seen as a long term threat to the stability of the already fractured country?

    The MB is a potential threat to the country and the region, but the Army is proving to be the bigger danger.

    As bad as the MB are, they're broadly democratic. Aside from violating local and international law, and flouting democracy, the army are setting themselves up as a long term threat to stability by usurping the constitutional order of Egypt, i.e. "whenever politicians are unpopular, we will step in with force". This is the second coup in as many years. This is where the threat to stability and democracy comes from.


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