Why can nobody speak Irish?

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 08:26PM

Caonima wrote: »

Ah bejaysus and begorrah... how do I say that as gaeilge?

Like this. "Fiddiley i de fiddiley do, cá bhfuil mo prataí?" :P

Caonima · 20-08-2013 08:32PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Like this. "Fiddiley i de fiddiley do, cá bhfuil mo prataí?" :P

Or 我的土豆在哪里 as the Chinese might laugh at us. Fecked if I know that in Irish, though

:D;):D:D

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 08:38PM

Caonima wrote: »

Or 我的土豆在哪里 as the Chinese might laugh at us. Fecked if I know that in Irish, though :D;):D:D

Wow fair play for learning to speak possibly the world's most alien language to our western ears.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 08:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wow fair play for learning to speak possibly the world's most alien language to our western ears.

Nah, it's actually not that tough; grammar is a lot easier than English, and there's a lot of flexibility in the language. And, of course, Irish was a bollocks to learn, but that was mainly because I was a child and the teachers were pants. I'm sure if I immersed myself in some godforsaken gaeltacht, I could learn Irish again like I learned Chinese.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 08:48PM

Dang, I think I done killed this thread with my Buzz Killington-esque reply...

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 08:57PM

Caonima wrote: »

Dang, I think I done killed this thread with my Buzz Killington-esque reply...

Nah I just rang out of things to say. :P Don't worry there's always another wannabe Irish language facist around the corner.

Aineoil · 20-08-2013 09:05PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nah I just rang out of things to say. :P Don't worry there's always another wannabe Irish language facist around the corner.

wow!

Rubeter · 20-08-2013 09:08PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Toe the line? I can think of a better place to stick my toe. I'm glad the world doesn't work the way you think it does.

Sorry kiddo but it does.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course I'm pulling your leg? How else would you toe the line like Rubeter gleefully thinks we should?

Where did I say that?
To say that about someone who was a punk living in rural Ireland in the early 80's and to this day has never fitted in to so called "normal society" is quite amusing.

Telling it as it is, does not mean agreeing with it, can you comprehend that rather simple concept?
I helped to change things that I didn't like about the society I grew up in, unlike some who just spent their time moaning about it.
What are you doing to change this aspect of Irish life that you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time moaning about?

Aineoil · 20-08-2013 09:09PM

Keats a gaelic son????

Caonima · 20-08-2013 09:12PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nah I just rang out of things to say. :P Don't worry there's always another wannabe Irish language facist around the corner.

You know what, Iwasfrozen, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and set myself up for some abuse.

I always wondered this, and never bothered to Google it or whatever. I always wanted to know who comes up with new words in Irish. For example, when Apple came up with the iPod, who in Ireland was in charge of making the Irish word for iPod, even if it was feckin "an iPod". I mean, words like verisimilitude, egregious, quantum, honorific... who comes up with the Irish versions of these?

Not like I care. Just did a bit of online research there; found that the English language contains approximately 1,019,000 words. When I searched for how many words in the Irish language, it was more difficult to find even an approximation. The closest I found, from some forum, was around 43,000.

If this is true, then how can Paddy McGaeilge and co. even began to assert that our language is richer or more emphatic than English? I'm not a west-Brit by any means, but am pragmatic enough to realise that communication requires clarity, not hedging. And with over million words, you can't argue with English as a good means to say what you mean, even if you don't mean what you say

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 09:14PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Sorry kiddo but it does.

Where did I say that?
To say that about someone who was a punk living in rural Ireland in the early 80's and to this day has never fitted in to so called "normal society" is quite amusing.

Telling it as it is, does not mean agreeing with it, can you comprehend that rather simple concept?
I helped to change things that I didn't like about the society I grew up in, unlike some who just spent their time moaning about it.
What are you doing to change this aspect of Irish life that you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time moaning about?

I don't want to change it. As long as I am not longer mandated to learn the language (which thankfully I am not) I couldn't care less what other people speak.

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 09:16PM

Caonima wrote: »

You know what, Iwasfrozen, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and set myself up for some abuse.

I always wondered this, and never bothered to Google it or whatever. I always wanted to know who comes up with new words in Irish. For example, when Apple came up with the iPod, who in Ireland was in charge of making the Irish word for iPod, even if it was feckin "an iPod". I mean, words like verisimilitude, egregious, quantum, honorific... who comes up with the Irish versions of these?

Not like I care. Just did a bit of online research there; found that the English language contains approximately 1,019,000 words. When I searched for how many words in the Irish language, it was more difficult to find even an approximation. The closest I found, from some forum, was around 43,000.

If this is true, then how can Paddy McGaeilge and co. even began to assert that our language is richer or more emphatic than English? I'm not a west-Brit by any means, but am pragmatic enough to realise that communication requires clarity, not hedging. And with over million words, you can't argue with English as a good means to say what you mean, even if you don't mean what you say

That's a good point. I don't even know, I think Foras na Gaeilge invents new words but I'm not sure it might be one of their subordinate bodies.

Cody Pomeray · 20-08-2013 09:22PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No no no no no, any and all literature written in the language of the oppressor is worthless compared to that of our native gaelic sons. Yeats, Keats, Joyce and Wilde were all nothing but west Brit imperialist enablers.

You're making arguments nobody else is making. The anti-Irish brigade always come out with this. It's a common tactic to characterize anyone who promotes the Irish language as being implicitly anti-English.

Nobody who promotes French, or classical Greek, or Russian literature as the purest, or most lustrous, or most worthy literary tradition is ever dismissed as being anti-English literature, much less a "Fascist".

Maybe the people who are making those remarks, i.e. you, need to reflect on why you're going down that line? What is it about Irish literature that so irks you? Do you think it is "fascism" that French bac students are expected to grapple with l'existentialisme and French philosophy before graduating? Even the ones who want to learn Irish at third level have to put up with Sartre for two years. Maybe you should go to France and protest that.

Caonima wrote: »

a significant majority of people on here would admit, unbiased, that Ireland has produced its best literature in the English language. There's something to be proud of in that.

No, I would say most of the best regarded Irish literature was put down on paper in the English language. That is merely a reflection on demographics. I would suggest the Irish language contribution to the national literary landscape to be disproportionately large in relation to its demographic - and there is something even more admirable, and more tenacious, and maybe even more valid, in that.

Aineoil · 20-08-2013 09:23PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Sorry kiddo but it does.

Where did I say that?
To say that about someone who was a punk living in rural Ireland in the early 80's and to this day has never fitted in to so called "normal society" is quite amusing.

Telling it as it is, does not mean agreeing with it, can you comprehend that rather simple concept?
I helped to change things that I didn't like about the society I grew up in, unlike some who just spent their time moaning about it.
What are you doing to change this aspect of Irish life that you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time moaning about?

Brian?? Is dócha???

An raibh tú i do chónaí in Inis Óirr nuair a bhí tú mar phunk?

Is aoibhinn liom an snáth seo! An greannmhar ar fad.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 09:30PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No, I would say most of the best regarded Irish literature was put down on paper in the English language. That is merely a reflection on demographics. I would suggest the Irish language contribution to the national literary landscape to be disproportionately large in relation to its demographic - and there is something even more admirable, and more tenacious, and maybe even more valid, in that.

Tenacity is, of course, to be respected in any country's history regarding their cultural output; this is a very good point. To disobey the decrees of a controlling nation is to invite severe punishment. Ireland thrived on disobedience of British rule and this propagated a swell of cultural and literary output. This cannot be disputed.

I was, alternatively, promulgating that the impact of Irish literature in the English language was more demonstrative of the Irish intellect than our gaelic opera was on ourselves. Sorry for the confusion.

Dindsenchas · 20-08-2013 09:31PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No no no no no, any and all literature written in the language of the oppressor is worthless compared to that of our native gaelic sons. Yeats, Keats, Joyce and Wilde were all nothing but west Brit imperialist enablers.

"Yeats,Keats,........" "Keats"??? heeeheeeeheeee:D:D:D

Caonima · 20-08-2013 09:34PM

Dindsenchas wrote: »

"Yeats,Keats,........" "Keats"??? heeeheeeeheeee:D:D:D

Well spotted, and not at all smug about spotting it. How very Irish

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 09:41PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

You're making arguments nobody else is making. The anti-Irish brigade always come out with this. It's a common tactic to characterize anyone who promotes the Irish language as being implicitly anti-English.

Nobody who promotes French, or classical Greek, or Russian literature as the purest, or most lustrous, or most worthy literary tradition is ever dismissed as being anti-English literature, much less a "Fascist".

Maybe the people who are making those remarks, i.e. you, need to reflect on why you're going down that line? What is it about Irish literature that so irks you? Do you think it is "fascism" that French bac students are expected to grapple with l'existentialisme and French philosophy before graduating? Even the ones who want to learn Irish at third level have to put up with Sartre for two years. Maybe you should go to France and protest that.

You are arguing against arguments I never made while simultaneously absconding me for arguing against something no one was arguing about.

As for Yeats and co of course they should be included in the English language course, they are an essential part of our literature heritage. Any equivalent such Irish language writer can be included in the optional higher level Irish course should the course co-ordinators desire.

Also I notice you mention France but the French citizens of Brittany do not have to put up with this crap in Nantes. I suggest you go over there and protest the lack of universal forced education on the Breton language.

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 09:42PM

Dindsenchas wrote: »

"Yeats,Keats,........" "Keats"??? heeeheeeeheeee:D:D:D

lol fair enough let me just not so subtly swap it with Kean. :P

HansHolzel · 20-08-2013 10:59PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No no no no no, any and all literature written in the language of the oppressor is worthless compared to that of our native gaelic sons. Yeats, Keats, Joyce and Wilde were all nothing but west Brit imperialist enablers.

Keats? He must have meant Ronan Keating.

Rubeter · 20-08-2013 11:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't want to change it. As long as I am not longer mandated to learn the language (which thankfully I am not) I couldn't care less what other people speak.

Well you sure as hell spend a lot of time moaning every time the words "Irish" and "language" are mentioned in a thread.
Road signs annoy you and infringe on your "human rights", you would be offended if someone spoke to you in Irish, seems you do care.

Caonima wrote: »

You know what, Iwasfrozen, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and set myself up for some abuse.

I always wondered this, and never bothered to Google it or whatever. I always wanted to know who comes up with new words in Irish. For example, when Apple came up with the iPod, who in Ireland was in charge of making the Irish word for iPod, even if it was feckin "an iPod". I mean, words like verisimilitude, egregious, quantum, honorific... who comes up with the Irish versions of these?

Not like I care. Just did a bit of online research there; found that the English language contains approximately 1,019,000 words. When I searched for how many words in the Irish language, it was more difficult to find even an approximation. The closest I found, from some forum, was around 43,000.

If this is true, then how can Paddy McGaeilge and co. even began to assert that our language is richer or more emphatic than English? I'm not a west-Brit by any means, but am pragmatic enough to realise that communication requires clarity, not hedging. And with over million words, you can't argue with English as a good means to say what you mean, even if you don't mean what you say

People would use 3,000 words day to day, most would have an active vocabulary* of around another 20,000, passive vocabulary** of 40,000. A well educated writer probably over 60,000.
Good luck with your 1,000,000.

*Understand and use.
**Understand but not use, only recognise.

Aineoil wrote: »

Brian?? Is dócha???

An raibh tú i do chónaí in Inis Óirr nuair a bhí tú mar phunk?

Is aoibhinn liom an snáth seo! An greannmhar ar fad.

Do chara Brian? Ní raibh mé.
Is maith liom an neamhainmníocht an idirlíon, ach bhí mé cúpla míle níos faide ó dheas.

Iwasfrozen · 21-08-2013 12:36AM

Rubeter wrote: »

Well you sure as hell spend a lot of time moaning every time the words "Irish" and "language" are mentioned in a thread.
Road signs annoy you and infringe on your "human rights", you would be offended if someone spoke to you in Irish, seems you do care.

The road signs don't annoy me I was only using it as a counter argument highlight the unfair treatment the English language is given on road signs. In the gaeltacht monolingual road signs are allowed but in the rest of the country they must be bilingual.

As for the other I only get annoyed if some people (like my old Irish teacher) insist on speaking Irish to me after I have made it obviously clear I had no intention of instigating dialogue in the language. But that's just bad manners on his part and a general dislike of evangelical attitudes on mine.

LordSutch · 21-08-2013 12:53AM

I actually heard a woman speaking Irish to her children in the park the other day! I couldn't believe it at first, as the last time I heard anybody speaking Irish in public was about twenty years ago on a bus in Dublin. This time however there was Polish being spoken by at east two sets of parents, Spanish too, and of course everybody else was speaking English with Irish accents, and there sitting on the bench with her kids under a tree beside the swings was this lone voice speaking to her child in Irish, presumably in the hope that maybe in twenty or thirty years time she will do the same with her kids

unkel · 21-08-2013 01:39AM

LordSutch wrote: »

I actually heard a woman speaking Irish to her children in the park the other day! I couldn't believe it at first

There's probably half a dozen languages more common in this country than Irish. I understand why people want to keep Irish up / revive it, but it is dying. Maybe everyone should come to terms with that. Fair enough if people want to fight to keep it alive, but let's not waste tax payers money on it.

Caonima · 21-08-2013 04:39AM

Rubeter wrote: »

People would use 3,000 words day to day, most would have an active vocabulary* of around another 20,000, passive vocabulary** of 40,000. A well educated writer probably over 60,000.

Quite conservative estimates there. In reality, it's higher than this, and varies from region to region, obviously.

And what has this to do with the size of the lexis in a language? Even if you were close, and my findings that there are around 43,000 words in the Irish language are close, then people who speak Irish find themselves significantly delimited by the size of such a small vocabulary.

Rubeter · 21-08-2013 08:05AM

Caonima wrote: »

Quite conservative estimates there. In reality, it's higher than this, and varies from region to region, obviously.

And what has this to do with the size of the lexis in a language? Even if you were close, and my findings that there are around 43,000 words in the Irish language are close, then people who speak Irish find themselves significantly delimited by the size of such a small vocabulary.

They are not my estimates, they are those of linguists and lexicographers. 20,000 active and 40-60,000 passive.
Lets go up a bit then and say a very well educated writer has a passive of 150,000 that is still nowhere near 1,000,000, making the number quite meaningless.

The very nature of a language makes a huge difference, do you count tenses, plurals, compound words, scientific terms etc, how each language deals with these makes a difference in the size of its lexicon.

Your findings, is that from this page.
*Ó Dónaill's has around 60,000 words in it (I just counted the number of words on a random number of pages, averaged it and multiplied by the number of pages, and got a similar number to the person on the page I linked to).
Just as English took many new words from Latin or Greek, Irish takes them from the two aforementioned plus English, words and concepts are named as needed, the object or concept comes first then the word not the other way round.
Do you think people would have had difficulty writing, conceiving of, or discussing a blog before the single word came about (from web log)?
Do you have difficulty talking about the tip of your middle finger without using the word dactylion?

*A language to language dictionary not a comprehensive lexicon.

Caonima · 21-08-2013 08:27AM

Rubeter wrote: »

Your findings, is that from this page.

Nope.

Rubeter wrote: »

They are not my estimates, they are those of linguists and lexicographers. 20,000 active and 40-60,000 passive.

Different language analysts have came up with different figures for these. Nobody has yet proved conclusively that these figures are accurate. As with a lot of language research, study is ongoing. It could be much higher than pertinent studies show... or lower.

Seems that no matter how many words you, in particular, know, you still don't bother reading correctly what other people have written. My point was not how many words people know; it was the range of the lexis for both languages, in that the greater richness of the English language allows for more subtlety and breadth of description.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 21-08-2013 08:34AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

1. I am not "over-emphasizing" the language. This happens to be a thread about the language's role in people's lives. It is natural that my points would focus on the language aspect of cultural identity, which is only one aspect of Irish cultural identity.

2. In the same vein, it is not a question of Irish language OR history (OR literature OR music OR thought). These are all manifestations of culture in themselves. Their cumulative effect amounts to a defined cultural tradition, of which language is an important component.

If people feel strongly about it, they are free to protest, campaign and make representations to that effect. So far, that hasn't really happened. Most people appear to accept the requirement for Irish - or even support it - especially young people

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=5622#sthash.F4b7laRb.dpuf

who are they? where are they?

Well, they're certainly not signing up for evening courses in order to learn it, are they?

And you are still promoting policie infriging on an Irish adult's right to not learn the langauge (or not partake in a sense of national identity for what ever reason they see fit - it's not up to you to decide what is and is not important or "approriate" for them) and not be disciminated against when approaching a thrid level course. To assume that everyone is happy with it because no one is protesting it is massively niave.

Rubeter · 21-08-2013 08:42AM

Caonima wrote: »

Nope.

Good. Where did you get it because it is off by (at the very least) the generally accepted figure of the number of words in the average persons active vocabluary, a huge disparity.

Different language analysts have came up with different figures for these. Nobody has yet proved conclusively that these figures are accurate. As with a lot of language research, study is ongoing. It could be much higher than pertinent studies show... or lower.

Which is why I took the most generally accepted figures.

Seems that no matter how many words you, in particular, know, you still don't bother reading correctly what other people have written. My point was not how many words people know; it was the range of the lexis for both languages, in that the greater richness of the English language allows for more subtlety and breadth of description.

The number of words a well educated writer would know is very pertinent to the discussion, for the simple reason the huge number of words unknown to that person would be technical or quite specific to an "activity" which people learn as needed irrespective of what language they speak.

Caonima · 21-08-2013 09:20AM

Rubeter wrote: »

The number of words a well educated writer would know is very pertinent to the discussion, for the simple reason the huge number of words unknown to that person would be technical or quite specific to an "activity" which people learn as needed irrespective of what language they speak.

And again, to repeat what I said earlier, I'm sure this is the case, but this is, again, not what I said. Just for you, I'll say it again: I'm comparing the size of the lexis between English and Irish. Not how many words the average person knows :rolleyes: I'm fully aware that the many disciplines of science, social sciences, humanities, arts, business have their own specific vocabulary. Dictionaries exist, people use them, but if English has a far greater lexical range, it allows for greater nuance, specificity, and accuracy.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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