Why can nobody speak Irish?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-08-2013 08:59PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

It is appropriate that young people be instilled with a sense of national identity. The Irish language curriculum at second level provides awareness of Irish in its linguistic form, and also its social/ historical context. As a community, I think it important that young people understand their social history, and that the community be allowed to establish and maintain its national character.

Fallacy and strawman.

Fallacy - langauge is not the only way to install a sense of national identity. Also, it's a massively overrated concept and one that the kds should be allowed to value for themselves. Wny not mandartory history? Same effect.

Strawman - I never argued it did: I even when so far as to pormoting sugested it be taught outside of school time.

The community is free to grant 'opt-outs' for people who do not wish to undertake these studies. Ultimately what we're talking about here is what society wants for itself - what ideas and awareness society wants from its children as they emerge from school. For me, I would include a sense of belonging to a community of people deeply rooted in their own cultural identity, but I accept that not everybody wants this.

Surely the kids themselves should have a say in this? If you're not going to talk to and listen to them and accept their viewpoints, then they are little more than pawns and using them for a personal cause is borderline abusive.

I think it is appropriate that Irish be a requirement for entering third level education, whether that be for actuarial studies or zoology. It has nothing to do with the individual course - it comes from an observation that education has an essential role to play in maintaining national identity and culture.

What absolute bull****. You don't need a sense of national identity to build or design a ****ing machine. Do you really think it gives a **** about the sentiments of the person putting it togehter? Shows you have little more than contempt for today's youth. This is about what's best for THEM not what's best for YOU.

BognarRegis · 19-08-2013 09:21PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

2. The European Court has consistently held that education has an essential role to play in the national policy of maintaining national identity and culture, and that a requirement to possess competence in the Irish language is a valid requirement taken in light of educational pursuits (Groener v Minister for Education).....It is appropriate that young people be instilled with a sense of national identity.

Then, let's look carefully at the lesson that is taught: pupils learn that they must bow to attempts to impose an alien Irish-speaking cultural identity on them and to comply until such time as they are free from state coercion. After that they happily engage in our normal English-speaking lifestyle and culture.

To provide pupils with an appreciation of the Irish language should not take over a decade of daily lessons. A simple laminated card with 'cupla focal' would be sufficient for most people's needs.

Speaking Irish is not a core part of our national identity. Deluding ourselves that we must speak Irish is.

Christy42 · 19-08-2013 11:02PM

Irish is definitely not a core part of our cultural identity. I can feel Irish even without being able to speak the language.

I think Irish should be optional, at least at leaving cert level anyway. However many people love the language and want more people to be able to speak which is a perfectly valid point of view. I don't think that keeping the subject mandatory will help them. That course needs to be changed so badly. It assumes you can speak way too much Irish, if you are behind at all then you really have to learn the exam or drop a level. I think it should have a much much greater focus on conversational Irish. Who cares if you make a silly mistake with tenses or whatever, can you hold a conversation in the language.

The videos coming out of Lurgan are great and are completely what needs to be done. Students are never going to recite poetry in their own time (most of which is godawful and the only reason it is printed is because it is in Irish). They might however sing a catchy song in Irish. Really I don't see why some of modern pop culture isn't on the course. People complain about kids not reading but they read a few things. Translate Harry Potter, or the Hunger games or something along those lines. You can decide what level it should be at but that can easily be done by the choice of books. Have class projects to translate favourite songs or the script of a favourite show.

I enjoyed some of the books on the English course but would not have touched the stuff on the Irish course with a 10 foot barge pole even if it was in English. How do you expect kids to want to study a language when the direct reward is that they understand a story they don't care about anyway.

Cody Pomeray · 20-08-2013 12:11PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fallacy and strawman.

Fallacy - langauge is not the only way to install a sense of national identity.

Fallacy- I do not say it is 'the only way to instill a sense of national identity'.

it's a massively overrated concept and one that the kds should be allowed to value for themselves. Wny not mandartory history? Same effect.

Irish incorporates Irish history both via the Stair na nGaeilge module and via the literary element. I would be fully in favour of adding a greater emphasis on national history and intellectualism, just as is a feature of other countries' educational system - France, most famously.

Surely the kids themselves should have a say in this? If you're not going to talk to and listen to them and accept their viewpoints, then they are little more than pawns and using them for a personal cause is borderline abusive.

It's not a personal cause, it's society's cause. The people make their own community. They - and not you, and not I - get to decide what values they want to instill in the next generation.

I would favour an awareness of the context of Ireland's rich cultural traditons as one aspect of developing future generations of bright, intellectually liberated young people.

Every advancing generation must be 'steered' by the community. We don't just leave our children in the fields like farm animals and say 'they will learn what they want to learn'. No, we provide them with all the valuable resources we hold dear, and let them do as they wish when they become adults themselves.

What absolute bull****. You don't need a sense of national identity to build or design a ****ing machine. Do you really think it gives a ****

And this is where the conversation ends. I can't communicate with you if you speak in asterisks or deliberately attempt to misrepresent what I am saying. I have consistently said that Irish is not a course entry requirement to most courses, and this is as it should be. It is a matriculation requirement because of its role in maintaining Irish identity. You persistently refuse to engage with that point, preferring instead the above strawman.

BognarRegis wrote: »

To provide pupils with an appreciation of the Irish language should not take over a decade of daily lessons. A simple laminated card with 'cupla focal' would be sufficient for most people's needs.

There is a major problem with how the language is taught, with a heavy handed emphasis on grammar and declensions. The structure is rigid in a way that does not reflect the spoken reality in places where Irish is a living language. I'm not defending the curriculum, I'm defending Irish instruction as a valid means of self-awareness.

Speaking Irish is not a core part of our national identity.

There is no society on the planet where children choose their own identities from scratch. Always, they are 'directed' through parental, educational, peer and social influence. Some characteristics are persuaded to the fore, some characteristics are persuaded into the background. Spoken Irish, along with a greater appreciation for Irish intellectual and cultural mores can be, and I suggest ought to be, allowed to re-establish themselves.

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 12:38PM

Cody is this you?

http://ugc.abairleat.kontain.com/video/20120225/prod_28b1ac44-8507-4423-a4b3-871a1da0a511/tb_640x480.jpg

old hippy · 20-08-2013 12:46PM

"Gaels! It delights my Gaelic heart to be here today speaking Gaelic with you at this Gaelic feis in the centre of the Gaeltacht. May I state that I am a Gael. I'm Gaelic from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. . . . If we're truly Gaelic, we must constantly discuss the question of the Gaelic revival and the question of Gaelicism. There is no use in having Gaelic, if we converse in it on non-Gaelic topics. He who speaks Gaelic but fails to discuss the language question is not truly Gaelic in his heart; such conduct is of no benefit to Gaelicism because he only jeers at Gaelic and reviles the Gaels. There is nothing in this life so nice and so Gaelic as truly true Gaelic Gaels who speak in true Gaelic Gaelic about the truly Gaelic language."

Cody Pomeray · 20-08-2013 12:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Cody is this you?

http://ugc.abairleat.kontain.com/video/20120225/prod_28b1ac44-8507-4423-a4b3-871a1da0a511/tb_640x480.jpg

is that an abair leat meme or something, i don't get it.

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 12:51PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

is that a meme or something, i don't get it.

It's Eanna from "An gaeilgeoir nocht." A 2006 TG4 made for tv film.

Boom__Boom · 20-08-2013 01:58PM

Christy42 wrote: »

The same argument could replied to History (an example) which I would argue should be put way ahead of Irish in terms of importance to our culture.

Just related to this - there are plans that History will no longer be compulsory for the Junior Cert any more.

The logic of history not even being compulsory in secondary schools yet Irish being compulsory to do the Leaving Cert seems utterly bizarre to me.

The notion of it being appropriate to have Irish as part of the matriculation requirements of the national universities of Ireland so that they can maintain their "ethos" is just ludicrous to me as Irish played no part whatsoever in my university experience, which I would imagine is the case for all but an absolutely tiny minority of those who attend university in Ireland.

In terms of the matriculation requirements I did know of one lad in my year who had to repeat his Leaving in order to matriculate because he failed Irish. He had enough points to do his course architecture but because he failed Irish he had to waste a year of his life studying a subject he had no interest or aptitude for.

The fact that you have so many of those who can opt out, choosing to do so says a huge amount about what the feeling is towards Irish among current students.

32,792 of the over 300,000 secondary students in the system skipped the subject this year.

To my mind its only a matter of time until the language becomes optional in terms of the Leaving Cert and is scrapped as a matriculation requirement by the NUI.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/huge-increase-in-number-of-students-not-sitting-irish-one-in-ten-children-exempt-from-studying-language-26884669.html

http://gombeennation.blogspot.ie/2012/08/compulsory-irish-end-numbers-sitting-irish-exam-down-leaving-cert-2012.html

http://www.careersportal.ie/news/news.php?Heading=More+than+7000+students+exempt+from+Irish&ID=13081202

HansHolzel · 20-08-2013 04:06PM

old hippy wrote: »

"Gaels! It delights my Gaelic heart to be here today speaking Gaelic with you at this Gaelic feis in the centre of the Gaeltacht. May I state that I am a Gael. I'm Gaelic from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. . . . If we're truly Gaelic, we must constantly discuss the question of the Gaelic revival and the question of Gaelicism. There is no use in having Gaelic, if we converse in it on non-Gaelic topics. He who speaks Gaelic but fails to discuss the language question is not truly Gaelic in his heart; such conduct is of no benefit to Gaelicism because he only jeers at Gaelic and reviles the Gaels. There is nothing in this life so nice and so Gaelic as truly true Gaelic Gaels who speak in true Gaelic Gaelic about the truly Gaelic language."

Tá Crustaí an Cábóg ar ais arís.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-08-2013 04:40PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Fallacy- I do not say it is 'the only way to instill a sense of national identity'.

Irish incorporates Irish history both via the Stair na nGaeilge module and via the literary element. I would be fully in favour of adding a greater emphasis on national history and intellectualism, just as is a feature of other countries' educational system - France, most famously.

It's not a personal cause, it's society's cause. The people make their own community. They - and not you, and not I - get to decide what values they want to instill in the next generation.

I would favour an awareness of the context of Ireland's rich cultural traditons as one aspect of developing future generations of bright, intellectually liberated young people.

Every advancing generation must be 'steered' by the community. We don't just leave our children in the fields like farm animals and say 'they will learn what they want to learn'. No, we provide them with all the valuable resources we hold dear, and let them do as they wish when they become adults themselves.

And this is where the conversation ends. I can't communicate with you if you speak in asterisks or deliberately attempt to misrepresent what I am saying. I have consistently said that Irish is not a course entry requirement to most courses, and this is as it should be. It is a matriculation requirement because of its role in maintaining Irish identity. You persistently refuse to engage with that point, preferring instead the above strawman.

There is a major problem with how the language is taught, with a heavy handed emphasis on grammar and declensions. The structure is rigid in a way that does not reflect the spoken reality in places where Irish is a living language. I'm not defending the curriculum, I'm defending Irish instruction as a valid means of self-awareness.

There is no society on the planet where children choose their own identities from scratch. Always, they are 'directed' through parental, educational, peer and social influence. Some characteristics are persuaded to the fore, some characteristics are persuaded into the background. Spoken Irish, along with a greater appreciation for Irish intellectual and cultural mores can be, and I suggest ought to be, allowed to re-establish themselves.

If it's not fallacy, then why this over-empasis on the langauge? And in term of school, it is langugage: history is a completely sepearte subject. And, to go one step further, if it really was a good idea to force a sense of national pride on every young adult in the country, history would be the way to do it - not langauge.

It is not a societal cause - it is a personal one. Most people who do not abide Irish would certainly not entertain it being society's choice. And it is their choice - not yours, not mine - to learn it or not. At moment, most are not, which would be a pretty clear indication to most people that they have made a choice. But beaue it is not the choice you want, you refuse to respect it (and yes, you do - by saying it should be mandatory to enter third level education). And these people, if you insist in talking down to them and telling that what is important and what is not, will NEVER be a "generations of bright, intellectually liberated young people" in the way you want them to be. They will continue to stand up and oppose the values that you wish to force aupion them. And rightfully so - unless you want sheep.

And the last line is simply to highlight how daft it is to force such a decision at such a pointless jucture. If you can not see or defend that then... so long.

But next time you do enter into discussion, at least think about the people you want to make decision for. They have minds too, you know.

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 05:59PM

Ah "society," excusing the denial of human liberty since circa 10,000 BC.

gdawg87 · 20-08-2013 06:09PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

I know, it's actually embarrassing! I spent 2 years in Australia meeting people from all over the world. Some never even knew there was an Irish language and they are surprised and ask me to speak some. Of course I have to repeat the only few words I know... I wish I learnt more in school. I am actually going to enroll in an evening Irish class now that I'm back in the country. I am ashamed I can't speak it fluently after doing it for so many years in school. I have a friend from the Philippines, he was adopted, he went to an Irish speaking school. His Irish is perfect. It's crazy to see this filipino guy speaking perfect Irish. I also seen a black man on TG4 the other day speaking and singing in Irish, fluently. Fair play to him! But I also think the way it's taught in our schools is not good. It really needs to be improved. When I have kids I would like them to go to an Irish speaking school.

Rubeter · 20-08-2013 06:10PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ah "society," excusing the denial of human liberty since circa 10,000 BC.

A social animal scoffing society, giggle.

Cody Pomeray · 20-08-2013 06:22PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If it's not fallacy, then why this over-empasis on the langauge? And in term of school, it is langugage: history is a completely sepearte subject. And, to go one step further, if it really was a good idea to force a sense of national pride on every young adult in the country, history would be the way to do it - not langauge.

1. I am not "over-emphasizing" the language. This happens to be a thread about the language's role in people's lives. It is natural that my points would focus on the language aspect of cultural identity, which is only one aspect of Irish cultural identity.

2. In the same vein, it is not a question of Irish language OR history (OR literature OR music OR thought). These are all manifestations of culture in themselves. Their cumulative effect amounts to a defined cultural tradition, of which language is an important component.

It is not a societal cause - it is a personal one. Most people who do not abide Irish would certainly not entertain it being society's choice.

If people feel strongly about it, they are free to protest, campaign and make representations to that effect. So far, that hasn't really happened. Most people appear to accept the requirement for Irish - or even support it - especially young people

http://www.gaelport.com/default.aspx?treeid=37&NewsItemID=5622#sthash.F4b7laRb.dpuf

65% felt that more subjects should be taught through Irish in primary schools to encourage children to use the language more often. And amongst the age group 15-24, 79% thought more subjects should be taught through Irish in primary schools. In other question about the Leaving Certificate 61% thought that Irish should be compulsory up to Leaving Certificate Level.

Many of these were in favour of this for reasons of preserving our cultural heritage as well as for the official status of the language. And amongst the age group 15-24, 65% thought that Irish should be compulsory to Leaving Certificate Level.

They will continue to stand up and oppose the values that you wish to force aupion them. And rightfully so - unless you want sheep.

who are they? where are they?

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 06:23PM

Rubeter wrote: »

A social animal scoffing society, giggle.

Nothing wrong with "society" just don't use it as an excuse to compel your views on others.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 06:37PM

I had awful Irish teachers for most of school, both primary and secondary, and I even lived on the edge of a gaeltacht (which the spellchecker tells me should be 'heartache'). What hope did I have? Coming from an Irish non-gaelic-speaking family, I could only learn what was presented to me, and that was sod all. Irish education system failed me, as it did with thousands of others. I'm not bitter, though; I could care less. I'm almost fluent in Chinese now, anyway.

HansHolzel · 20-08-2013 06:52PM

Caonima wrote: »

I had awful Irish teachers for most of school, both primary and secondary, and I even lived on the edge of a gaeltacht (which the spellchecker tells me should be 'heartache'). What hope did I have? Coming from an Irish non-gaelic-speaking family, I could only learn what was presented to me, and that was sod all. Irish education system failed me, as it did with thousands of others. I'm not bitter, though; I could care less. I'm almost fluent in Chinese now, anyway.

You mean you couldn't care less.

if832uspx4eogt · 20-08-2013 07:05PM

I do like learning languages but the way it's taught needs to be changed quickly before it really does die out, which would be a tragedy. The language is beautiful but learning it at school is such a bore.

Learning the past tense off by heart, cramming phrases down or necks will not get us to learn! My French is nearly better than Irish, and I've been only learning it for 4 years (compared to 10+ years at Irish.) It's the way my teacher goes at it.

The compulsory thing makes it hated, in my school anyway. Same as Religion and Maths. It has a stigma attached to it.

Rubeter · 20-08-2013 07:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nothing wrong with "society" just don't use it as an excuse to compel your views on others.

That's kinda what society is, getting people to "toe the line". It's how a social species works, some are left out of the loop but it is better for the society/group/species as a whole, that's how it evolved in the first place.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 07:32PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

You mean you couldn't care less.

Isn't that what I said?

I feel a lost opportunity, missing out on something transferable, something I can hold onto as part of my culture, but I don't get bent out of shape by it. You can't label a language as the be all and end all of a nation. The best works of literature in Ireland were written in English, our best comedians use English, the greater world uses English as its lingua franca...

Cody Pomeray · 20-08-2013 07:38PM

Caonima wrote: »

The best works of literature in Ireland were written in English

How do you know, if you don't speak Irish?

Caonima · 20-08-2013 07:38PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

How do you know, if you don't speak Irish?

Translation, usually.

Aineoil · 20-08-2013 07:52PM

Caonima wrote: »

Translation, usually.

So much wealth and beauty of a language gets lost in even the best translation.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 07:55PM

Aineoil wrote: »

So much wealth and beauty of a language gets lost in even the best translation.

Granted, of course. The subtleties, nuances, turns of phrase, history, meaning... it can get chewed up. But I'm pretty sure, without having to make a list, that a significant majority of people on here would admit, unbiased, that Ireland has produced its best literature in the English language. There's something to be proud of in that.

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 08:07PM

Caonima wrote: »

Granted, of course. The subtleties, nuances, turns of phrase, history, meaning... it can get chewed up. But I'm pretty sure, without having to make a list, that a significant majority of people on here would admit, unbiased, that Ireland has produced its best literature in the English language. There's something to be proud of in that.

No no no no no, any and all literature written in the language of the oppressor is worthless compared to that of our native gaelic sons. Yeats, Keats, Joyce and Wilde were all nothing but west Brit imperialist enablers.

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 08:10PM

Rubeter wrote: »

That's kinda what society is, getting people to "toe the line". It's how a social species works, some are left out of the loop but it is better for the society/group/species as a whole, that's how it evolved in the first place.

Toe the line? I can think of a better place to stick my toe. I'm glad the world doesn't work the way you think it does.

Caonima · 20-08-2013 08:12PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No no no no no, any and all literature written in the language of the oppressor is worthless compared to that of our native gaelic sons. Yeats, Keats, Joyce and Wilde were all nothing but west Brit imperialist enablers.

Language of the oppressor? I think creating something as timeless as literature should transcend human errors like war and invasion. You've just trashed four of our greatest sons, and they are ours, with what you said. I'm assuming, of course, that you're pulling my leg here. :cool:

Iwasfrozen · 20-08-2013 08:21PM

Caonima wrote: »

Language of the oppressor? I think creating something as timeless as literature should transcend human errors like war and invasion. You've just trashed four of our greatest sons, and they are ours, with what you said. I'm assuming, of course, that you're pulling my leg here. :cool:

Of course I'm pulling your leg? How else would you toe the line like Rubeter gleefully thinks we should?

Caonima · 20-08-2013 08:24PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course I'm pulling your leg? How else would you toe the line like Rubeter gleefully thinks we should?

Ah bejaysus and begorrah... how do I say that as gaeilge?

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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