Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

Freddy Smelly · 20-08-2013 07:31AM

will someone think of the children!!!! they start school soon

devnull · 20-08-2013 08:18AM

cdebru wrote: »

Also you neglect to mention the increase in numbers of those entitled to free travel while the funding for that free travel scheme has actually decreased.

The free travel scheme has plenty of holes, I've already said the amount of fraud on it is far too high. Is this the only reason Dublin Bus are in the state they are? It makes a contribution, but it's not the only reason.

Lastly the NTA has purchased new buses in the last 18 months they still belong to the NTA and are leased to DB, fleet renewal is government policy they want buses replaced and a new modern fleet to encourage people to use buses which means replacing buses even though they are not end of life nor is it economically appropriate.

True although saying that when Dublin Bus were in charge of buying them themselves, the average age was even lower and they were buying them at an even quicker rate. The staggering thing was at the time, people were saying that it wasn't enough!

Between 2006-2008 the company self funded 400 vehicles (200x AX, 100x EV's 50xVT's and 50x VG's), which I agree was overkill, but since 2008 the 160 from the NTA this year and last year have all there have been.

OldNotWIse · 20-08-2013 09:46AM

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

will someone think of the children!!!! they start school soon

- no more noisy brats running around all evening, disturbing my peace

:mad: - more traffic on the road as the little dears are ferried to and from school

so torn......

Hootanany · 20-08-2013 09:53AM

Well are you going on strike soon,or are you waiting till School is back"To really screw over the people"?

cdebru · 20-08-2013 11:10AM

Hootanany wrote: »

Well are you going on strike soon,or are you waiting till School is back"To really screw over the people"?

That remains exactly as the last time, completely up to the company as to if or when any industrial action will happen.

Hootanany · 20-08-2013 11:12AM

So how will your Unions react when The management ignore the Labour Court ruling for the benefit of DB drivers?

cdebru · 20-08-2013 11:16AM

devnull wrote: »

The free travel scheme has plenty of holes, I've already said the amount of fraud on it is far too high. Is this the only reason Dublin Bus are in the state they are? It makes a contribution, but it's not the only reason.

True although saying that when Dublin Bus were in charge of buying them themselves, the average age was even lower and they were buying them at an even quicker rate. The staggering thing was at the time, people were saying that it wasn't enough!

Between 2006-2008 the company self funded 400 vehicles (200x AX, 100x EV's 50xVT's and 50x VG's), which I agree was overkill, but since 2008 the 160 from the NTA this year and last year have all there have been.

No it is not the only reason however it is a huge millstone around the companies neck, low subvention, scrapping of the fuel rebate, loss of passengers due to the recession, fare evasion, high fuel costs are some of the main contributory factors.

Again that was government policy to replace and grow the fleet, then the recession happened and the government fecked off leaving the company in an unsustainable position.

cdebru · 20-08-2013 11:21AM

Hootanany wrote: »

So how will your Unions react when The management ignore the Labour Court ruling for the benefit of DB drivers?

It is not binding on either party, the labour court is looking at a narrow field of options, it is not open to the labour court to make recommendations regarding subvention, free travel scheme funding or changes, fuel rebate scrapping etc etc, the labour court is only asked which cuts should be made out of x amount to save y amount.

Hootanany · 20-08-2013 11:24AM

Why do you expect 2.5 for sundays and not the normal 2 times ie double pay?

cdebru · 20-08-2013 11:41AM

Hootanany wrote: »

Why do you expect 2.5 for sundays and not the normal 2 times ie double pay?

2.5 is for overtime on a Sunday, double is for Sundays that are part of your working week, extra payment for overtime is normal in most reasonable industries and 2.5 for Sunday overtime is standard for where Sunday is part of the working week.

Hootanany · 20-08-2013 11:53AM

WHAT If Sunday was part of your week it should be single time, double if not.
No wonder the Company is XXXXXXXXX with attidudes and practices like that?

old hippy · 20-08-2013 12:01PM

The management is at fault and the workers have every right to strike. The way some of the usual suspects bang on about the unions, you'd almost think they want to go back to Victorian chimney sweep days

Terry1985 · 20-08-2013 12:47PM

old hippy wrote: »

The way some of the usual suspects bang on about the unions, you'd almost think they want to go back to Victorian chimney sweep days

So you don't agree that unions can go too far?
Like the public sector who had 'pay freezes' but still got their annual increments despite the country being bankrupt?

Getting 2.5 times your pay for working one day of the week as opposed to the next is the draconian idea.
Also the idea of resisting changes in practices... you're paid for a full days work so they should do whatever the management decides during those paid/overpaid hours.

Jumboman · 20-08-2013 01:27PM

Terry1985 wrote: »

So you don't agree that unions can go too far?
Like the public sector who had 'pay freezes' but still got their annual increments despite the country being bankrupt?

The increments only apply to junior public sector workers.

Increments also apply in the private sector, you would expect someone to get a pay increase after they have been working for the company for a few years.

Jumboman · 20-08-2013 01:34PM

old hippy wrote: »

The management is at fault and the workers have every right to strike. The way some of the usual suspects bang on about the unions, you'd almost think they want to go back to Victorian chimney sweep days

What the anti union crowd don't realise is that people were only able to get their rights by fighting for them. If the unions didnt fight for our rights we would still be working 12 to 14 hour days with no paid holidays etc.

Foxtrol · 20-08-2013 01:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

because when the private operator doesn't wish to run the unproffitable routes the NTA will bend over and let them cut the routes, such bundeling and tendering would be bad for the customer and must be stopped by whatever means possible and at any cost

What’s being proposed here is proper tendering and control where the problems you cite above wouldn’t be an issue. Quite frankly what you’re doing above is fear mongering and you haven't been able to point out one reason why if the process was done correctly it would be bad for the customer.

no, they were very supportive but believed it would lead to a downgrading or cutting of services

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/talks-efforts-to-avert-dublin-bus-strikes-likely-to-begin-at-the-labour-relations-commission-26402553.html

Yeah what the bus drivers cared about was the customer service :rolleyes:

Foxtrol · 20-08-2013 01:43PM

cdebru wrote: »

so massive wage by your definition is less than you could get for doing nothing and getting social welfare.
A payment which is supposed to be the bare minimum support a family needs to maintain it while they look for work, or to support them because they can no longer work, and less than that is a massive wage??
you are just trolling, unfortunately some people here take you seriously.
You wouldn't last a day doing the work these people do.

Why is social welfare payments the automatic comparison supporters of drivers make when their wages are questioned? I’m starting to understand why DB has to pay a bonus to staff for showing up to work.

Rather than trying to compare the wage to people who ‘do nothing’ maybe try to compare the wage and perks to people who have spent 3/4/5 years in college and then you’ll understand how it can be deemed as a massive wage for the very low skill/training required to be a driver.

Jumboman · 20-08-2013 01:44PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

What’s being proposed here is proper tendering and control where the problems you cite above wouldn’t be an issue. Quite frankly what you’re doing above is fear mongering and you haven't been able to point out one reason why if the process was done correctly it would be bad for the customer.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/talks-efforts-to-avert-dublin-bus-strikes-likely-to-begin-at-the-labour-relations-commission-26402553.html

Yeah what the bus drivers cared about was the customer service :rolleyes:

Just look at British rail if the brits were not able to make privatisation a success what makes you think our gombeen politicians could do it ?

FF/FG would just give out contracts to manage the buses to their freinds and the customer would end up paying more for a worse service.

Foxtrol · 20-08-2013 01:54PM

Jumboman wrote: »

Just look at British rail if the brits were not able to make privatisation a success what makes you think our gombeen politicians could do it ?

FF/FG would just give out contacts to manage the buses to their freinds and the customer would end up paying more for a worse service.

My question, which you so helpfully bolded, was that if tendering was done correctly what would be bad for the customer, care to answer?

Larbre34 · 20-08-2013 02:05PM

Jumboman wrote: »

The increments only apply to junior public sector workers.

.

They most certainly do not. Scales covering all manner of grades between €25,000 and €140,000 are incremental. I wouldnt consider Assistant Secretary General level to be junior.

gazzer · 20-08-2013 02:57PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

They most certainly do not. Scales covering all manner of grades between €25,000 and €140,000 are incremental. I wouldnt consider Assistant Secretary General level to be junior.

Plenty of people in the Civil and Public Service who have not have an increment in a long long time. Mainly due to the fact that there is a monatorium on promotions. You get to the top of the scale after 15 or so years and thats were you stay unless you are lucky enough to get a promotion at some stage down the line.

JRant · 20-08-2013 05:43PM

K-9 wrote: »

I think the subvention has been cut? So while it is semi private we had pressure during the boom years for less tax payer input, plus obviously less tax payer support and less people using it during the recession.

It's a business that has to serve loss making routes and also plough money into capital, we all want new, clean buses on the service, otherwise we'll complain they are ancient and unreliable, even if that means the company is cutting costs.

We want lower costs, but a better service, the pampered generation I was on about last night. If it doesn't get delivered, just blame the unions, not unrealistic expectations from the public and management.

All very valid points. However the points raised about fare increases and route culling being a drawback for privatisation seem to apply to the current set-up.

Skylinehead · 20-08-2013 06:06PM

Jumboman wrote: »

What the anti union crowd don't realise is that people were only able to get their rights by fighting for them. If the unions didnt fight for our rights we would still be working 12 to 14 hour days with no paid holidays etc.

Yeah, all well and good. But this union isn't fighting for my rights, or any rights worth talking about really. The right to overpaid overtime?

Jumboman · 20-08-2013 07:01PM

Skylinehead wrote: »

Yeah, all well and good. But this union isn't fighting for my rights, or any rights worth talking about really. The right to overpaid overtime?

They could be fighting for your rigths tomorrow.

If the government can get away with slashing wages across the economy they will likely come for you at some point.

First they came for the public sector workers,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a public sector worker.
Then they came for the unemployed,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't unemployed.
Then they came for the disabled,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't disabled.
Then they came for the pensioners,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a pensioner.
Then they came for the bus drivers,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a bus driver.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

btard · 20-08-2013 07:10PM

old hippy wrote: »

The management is at fault and the workers have every right to strike. The way some of the usual suspects bang on about the unions, you'd almost think they want to go back to Victorian chimney sweep days

Most of them have never worked a day in their life. You can tell from the shyte they come out with. They are usually students living off their parents and subsidised by the state who know **** all about real life. Small time entrepreneurs who have no qualms about living off the sweat of others. Who bleat on about lowering the minimum wage and breaking unions so they can exploit others for their own gain. Then you have the well off professionals who had their path greased by family money all through life. They preach to ordinary workers about taking cuts and the state being bankrupt, while they screw everybody left right and centre. Then you have the idiots that haven't got the balls to stand up for themselves. They work long hours for low pay and even work unpaid overtime because it's 'expected'. They haven't got the sense to know they're being exploited and see anyone else who stands up for themselves as being somehow lazy or greedy. They're the worst of the lot. Pathetic creatures.

Any wage scales or conditions the bus workers enjoy was fought for tooth and nail down through the years. It seems they are one of the few groups of workers who are prepared to stand up and defend themselves from the onslaught in the present climate. I for one applaud them and support them 100% Whether they win or lose, they have my respect for trying.

Jumboman · 20-08-2013 07:10PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

My question, which you so helpfully bolded, was that if tendering was done correctly what would be bad for the customer, care to answer?

Thats a big "if" can you point to a country were it has worked ?

Also if it is profitable it would be better for the state to run it so any profit that is made can put back into the service instead of lining the pockets of a denis o'brien or a tony o'reilly.

Skylinehead · 20-08-2013 07:18PM

Jumboman wrote: »

They could be fighting for your rigths tomorrow.

Why would a bus union be fighting for my rights?

If the government can get away with slashing wages across the economy they will likely come for you at some point.
First they came for the public sector workers,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a public sector worker.
Then they came for the unemployed,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't unemployed.
Then they came for the disabled,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't disabled.
Then they came for the pensioners,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a pensioner.
Then they came for the bus drivers,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a bus driver.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

Except that the government isn't trying to cut wages, it's trying to make cuts in an unprofitable business.

Also, how can they cut wages when they have nothing to do with them? Paranoia at its finest. Funny that you mention the disabled and pensioners, seems to me that this bus strike hit them the hardest.

Leaving aside that the government has no reason to cut wages, more wages = more taxes.

Carlos Orange · 20-08-2013 07:26PM

Jumboman wrote: »

What the anti union crowd don't realise is that people were only able to get their rights by fighting for them. If the unions didnt fight for our rights we would still be working 12 to 14 hour days with no paid holidays etc.

The problem with unions is that they are strongest where they are least needed.

MyKeyG · 20-08-2013 07:32PM

Quite Frankly I haven't supported Dublin Bus since they held that impromptu strike a few years ago concerning the proposed change to the routes, not finishing in the depot you started etc. While I didn't agree with the proposals hundreds of people were left stranded. I struggle to grasp how these individuals think they can curry favour with the public by holding them to ransom.

Hilly Bill · 20-08-2013 07:32PM

markpb wrote: »

The answer was in the rest of my post. Feel free to read it again. Of course, you could argue that our bus service is twice as good as that in London which explains the massive price difference but then I'd really stop listening to you.

€3 a day for unlimited travel is amazing value. Saying it isnt is just arguing for the sake of it.

Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

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