What happens if I dont pay a medical bill ?

OMD · 11-08-2013 6:58pm

Xeyn wrote: »

As for doctors being paid too much. I'm a non consultant hospital doctor and have been for 6 years. My status at home is one of dual income partnership. My fiancé is a nurse, with a masters. We live a comfortable life. We cannot afford a mortgage in Dublin. We both drive cars about 15-20 years old. We can't afford anything more.

I am sorry but this part of your post is just absolute rubbish. I have no problem with doctors complaining about the hours worked, the difficulty of the work, the lack of training etc. I think the way NCHDs are treated is awful but please don't give me this guff about not being able to afford anything but a 15-20 year old car etc. That is just ****e.

With 6 years experience you are probably a 2nd or 3rd year reg. Your wife at the very least is 4th year staff nurse. I would be astounded if your combined income was less than €100k a year. That puts you in the top 14% richest households in the country.

[Copied from another thread]
•33% of households have a gross income of less than €30,000;
•56% of households have a gross income of less than €50,000;
•62% of households have a gross income below the mean household income;
•The top 20% of households have a gross income of more than €80,000 per annum;
•14% of household have a gross income above €100,000 per annum; and
•2% of households have gross incomes above €200,000 per annum.

Xeyn · 11-08-2013 7:11pm

OMD wrote: »

I am sorry but this part of your post is just absolute rubbish. I have no problem with doctors complaining about the hours worked, the difficulty of the work, the lack of training etc. I think the way NCHDs are treated is awful but please don't give me this guff about not being able to afford anything but a 15-20 year old car etc. That is just ****e.

With 6 years experience you are probably a 2nd or 3rd year reg. Your wife at the very least is 4th year staff nurse. I would be astounded if your combined income was less than €100k a year. That puts you in the top 14% richest households in the country.

[Copied from another thread]
•33% of households have a gross income of less than €30,000;
•56% of households have a gross income of less than €50,000;
•62% of households have a gross income below the mean household income;
•The top 20% of households have a gross income of more than €80,000 per annum;
•14% of household have a gross income above €100,000 per annum; and
•2% of households have gross incomes above €200,000 per annum.

Believe what you want but our combined income is less than 100k.
I don't get paid for a lot of the hours I work.
We are sensible people and have other priorities than buying new cars. People in my position do have newer cars but on lease/credit. In our opinion we can't afford it. You can argue that till you're blue in the face it won't change my opinion on the matter.
It's similar attitudes displayed by your post that perpetuates erroneous assumptions about lifestyles of certain professions.
You've completely ignored everything around a statement about a car and rode off on your horse.
You can believe what you want of course. I know what I earn and what I can afford. As I said I'm quite comfortable but I am very far away from being wealthy. And as I said before I'm not looking to become wealthy either.

OMD · 11-08-2013 7:32pm

Xeyn wrote: »

Believe what you want but our combined income is less than 100k.
I don't get paid for a lot of the hours I work.
We are sensible people and have other priorities than buying new cars. People in my position do have newer cars but on lease/credit. In our opinion we can't afford it. You can argue that till you're blue in the face it won't change my opinion on the matter.
It's similar attitudes displayed by your post that perpetuates erroneous assumptions about lifestyles of certain professions.
You've completely ignored everything around a statement about a car and rode off on your horse.
You can believe what you want of course. I know what I earn and what I can afford. As I said I'm quite comfortable but I am very far away from being wealthy. And as I said before I'm not looking to become wealthy either.

Assuming you both work full time in hospitals you will be earning more than 100k or at worst very close to it. You can deny it all you want. Your wife's salary alone will be slightly over 40k http://www.inmo.ie/35. Your salary (before any allowances or overtime is €56,000. You can afford all the things you say you cannot. You have chosen not to buy them as you "are sensible people and have other priorities than buying new cars" but please don't tell us you cannot afford them. That is simply untrue. By the way I am a doctor, was an NCHD so I know the kind of salaries you get and the hours you work. These are the scales before allowances or overtime (which would increase the pay by about 50%).

Intern €34,668.00
SHO
1 €40,173.00
2 €42,450.00
3 €45,853.00
4 €48,079.00
Registrar/SHO
1/5 €52,555.00
2/6 €54,779.00
3/7 €56,950.00
4 €58,547.00
5 €60,677.00
6 €62,814.00
Senior Registrar
1 €68,131.00
2 €70,344.00
3 €72,563.00
4 €74,928.00
5 €77,658.00
6 €80,501.00
7 €83,434.00
Premium Payments*
Scale Point Annual Basic Salary
SpR
1 €62,918.00
2 €64,449.00
3 €66,661.00
4 €69,745.00
5 €73,079.00
6 €76,417.00
7 €79,753.00

Xeyn · 11-08-2013 7:51pm

OMD wrote: »

Assuming you both work full time in hospitals you will be earning more than 100k or at worst very close to it. You can deny it all you want. Your wife's salary alone will be slightly over 40k http://www.inmo.ie/35. Your salary (before any allowances or overtime is €56,000. You can afford all the things you say you cannot. You have chosen not to buy them as you "are sensible people and have other priorities than buying new cars" but please don't tell us you cannot afford them. That is simply untrue. By the way I am a doctor, was an NCHD so I know the kind of salaries you get and the hours you work. These are the scales before allowances or overtime (which would increase the pay by about 50%).

Intern €34,668.00
SHO
1 €40,173.00
2 €42,450.00
3 €45,853.00
4 €48,079.00
Registrar/SHO
1/5 €52,555.00
2/6 €54,779.00
3/7 €56,950.00
4 €58,547.00
5 €60,677.00
6 €62,814.00
Senior Registrar
1 €68,131.00
2 €70,344.00
3 €72,563.00
4 €74,928.00
5 €77,658.00
6 €80,501.00
7 €83,434.00
Premium Payments*
Scale Point Annual Basic Salary
SpR
1 €62,918.00
2 €64,449.00
3 €66,661.00
4 €69,745.00
5 €73,079.00
6 €76,417.00
7 €79,753.00

What you think is affordable and what is not is irrelevant. I stated my opinion, as I said go blue in the face arguing it. I could turn around and say if more people were honest about what they could afford we wouldn't be in this mess.

If you really were an nchd youd know there are practically no allowances paid to nchds anymore, a lot of nhcds are forced to pay dual rents due to obligatory moves to random hospitals, and that a lot of overtime is not paid at all. But as much as I'd love to be drawn more into your emotive argument that is completely beside the point I was making, and you know it, we will just have to agree to disagree here.

OMD · 11-08-2013 8:15pm

Xeyn wrote: »

What you think is affordable and what is not is irrelevant. I stated my opinion, as I said go blue in the face arguing it. I could turn around and say if more people were honest about what they could afford we wouldn't be in this mess.

If you really were an nchd youd know there are practically no allowances paid to nchds anymore, a lot of nhcds are forced to pay dual rents due to obligatory moves to random hospitals, and that a lot of overtime is not paid at all. But as much as I'd love to be drawn more into your emotive argument that is completely beside the point I was making, and you know it, we will just have to agree to disagree here.

You brought up the point of NCHD pay. Indeed this whole thread revolves around what doctors earn. There is a real argument to be made around the worth of doctors but at least be honest about the income. Implying you are not earning a lot by saying you cannot afford a mortgage or any car less than 15 years old is ridiculous. You can give reasons for this but simply saying it implies you are not earning much. Many people in this country are in that position. You are not. You make a very good living. You yourself probably earn close to double the average wage in this country. Be honest about that and make a point for how you deserve it. I am not saying you are overpaid by any means but a basic pay before any allowances or overtime of 55,000 is excellent money. After overtime this may be close to €80,000 a year. Also despite cuts your pay will still go up with increments so in 3 years time you will be earning substantially more (as will your wife).

A new consultant now will earn about€120,000 (not the 100k you said). Yes this is less than before but it is still a good wage and puts a new consultant automatically into the top 10% of earners in this country. Existing consultants in HSE obviously earn more. Yes they work damn hard for this.

Ihaveanopinion · 11-08-2013 8:18pm

OMD wrote: »

You brought up the point of NCHD pay. Indeed this whole thread revolves around what doctors earn. There is a real argument to be made around the worth of doctors but at least be honest about the income. Implying you are not earning a lot by saying you cannot afford a mortgage or any car less than 15 years old is ridiculous. Many people in this country are in that position. You are not. You make a very good living. You yourself probably earn close to double the average wage in this country. Be honest about that and make a point for how you deserve it. I am not saying you are overpaid by any means but a basic pay before any allowances or overtime of 55,000 is excellent money. After overtime this may be close to €80,000 a year. Also despite cuts your pay will still go up with increments so in 3 years time you will be earning substantially more (as will your wife).

A new consultant now will earn about€120,000 (not the 100k you said). Yes this is less than before but it is still a good wage and puts a new consultant automatically into the top 10% of earners in this country. Existing consultants in HSE obviously earn more. Yes they work damn hard for this.

Actually thats nonsense. This thread is about a private consultants fee. It has nothing to do with public NCHD or Consultants salaries. Completely different topic.

The matter at hand here is - customer engaged a private professional for a service - now does not wish to pay the fee. You can argue the value of the service all you want but the point at hand is still the same.

Pay the fees for the PRIVATE professional services you use.

Jumboman · 11-08-2013 8:37pm

dissed doc wrote: »

Well the Department of Health and HSE chooses to employ a certain number of consultants. In general, that number is well below OECD averages. Therefore the HSE gets to spend less money and you have to spend more to get the service you want.

Its the same doctors in both systems. My father needed a life saving operation he was told he would have to wait alteast 6 months to get it done on the public system but when he decided to go private he was able to get the same operation done with the same doctor within 5 days. The only difference was that it was in a private hospital.

Xeyn · 11-08-2013 8:44pm

OMD wrote: »

You brought up the point of NCHD pay. Indeed this whole thread revolves around what doctors earn. There is a real argument to be made around the worth of doctors but at least be honest about the income. Implying you are not earning a lot by saying you cannot afford a mortgage or any car less than 15 years old is ridiculous. You can give reasons for this but simply saying it implies you are not earning much. Many people in this country are in that position. You are not. You make a very good living. You yourself probably earn close to double the average wage in this country. Be honest about that and make a point for how you deserve it. I am not saying you are overpaid by any means but a basic pay before any allowances or overtime of 55,000 is excellent money. After overtime this may be close to €80,000 a year. Also despite cuts your pay will still go up with increments so in 3 years time you will be earning substantially more (as will your wife).

A new consultant now will earn about€120,000 (not the 100k you said). Yes this is less than before but it is still a good wage and puts a new consultant automatically into the top 10% of earners in this country. Existing consultants in HSE obviously earn more. Yes they work damn hard for this.

I do not earn the salary you say I do. Nor does my fiancé. I'm not sure why you are insisting on that with knowing barely nothing of my circumstances apart from how long I've been a doctor.
You've ignored the essence of my post which was while NCHDs (mostly) live comfortable lives we are far from the spoiled wealthy socialites that is often depicted.

Anyway like the last poster stated, this is far from the original topic so ill just say I respect your opinion even though I disagree with it.

Xeyn · 11-08-2013 8:47pm

Jumboman wrote: »

Its the same doctors in both systems. My father needed a life saving operation he was told he would have to wait alteast 6 months to get it done on the public system but when he decided to go private he was able to get the same operation done with the same doctor within 5 days. The only difference was that it was in a private hospital.

The simple answer is the patient load in private is massively smaller than public.
'Life saving' seems to be a very broad term used by many. Public patients are prioritised and urgent cases will always go ahead in the place of elective surgeries. If your father needed the operation sooner than 6 months to 'save his life' he would get it in the public sector.

Ihaveanopinion · 11-08-2013 8:49pm

Jumboman wrote: »

Its the same doctors in both systems. My father needed a life saving operation he was told he would have to wait alteast 6 months to get it done on the public system but when he decided to go private he was able to get the same operation done with the same doctor within 5 days. The only difference was that it was in a private hospital.

That may be the case for your instance but actually, increasingly it's not. The contract that allows for a consultant to work in both sectors is no longer available.

That aside, its still the same issue. If you engaged this doctor in the private sector, you owe private fees. His public contract covers his public workload only. If you wish to avail of the public sector, you have to pay with your time ( because its understaffed, under resourced, etc)

Astala · 11-08-2013 8:58pm

OMD wrote: »

A new consultant now will earn about€120,000 (not the 100k you said). Yes this is less than before but it is still a good wage and puts a new consultant automatically into the top 10% of earners in this country. Existing consultants in HSE obviously earn more. Yes they work damn hard for this.

What a load of crap. We have a consultant in our family. His net income is €80,000 per annum. Don't give me that crap that a new consultant will earn €120,000-they're now earning even less than €80,000. Sounds like you've a massive chip on your shoulder, much like Jumboman actually.

Jumboman has received an overwhelming response in this thread to pay the fee that he incurred. As for his father requiring a "life-saving" operation and being put on a waiting list for 6 months-simply untrue. It must not have been life-saving. Yet another exaggeration and blatant disregard for common sense which is a recurring theme in his posts.

Pay your fee-you made the choice to pay for private healthcare despite the fact that our government is giving you every benefit available with your medical card.

Xeyn · 11-08-2013 9:06pm

To be fair I think he was referring to gross salary. I think we all expect to see less than 50% of our salary at the end of the month but that means we are not at the bottom of the barrel which is a good thing.

Jumboman · 11-08-2013 10:40pm

Astala wrote: »

Jumboman has received an overwhelming response in this thread to pay the fee that he incurred. As for his father requiring a "life-saving" operation and being put on a waiting list for 6 months-simply untrue. It must not have been life-saving.

He had a blocked artery in which he had already had a stroke from so the longer he waited the more his health was at risk.

Yet another exaggeration and blatant disregard for common sense which is a recurring theme in his posts.

How is it common sence to pay someone 200euro to speak to me for 5minutes after I already payed him for the tests and he coundnt even find the problem.

Pay your fee-you made the choice to pay for private healthcare despite the fact that our government is giving you every benefit available with your medical card.

You sound like one of those people who think people on the dole live the high life I dont even use most of the benefits that are on the medical card.

byhookorbycrook · 11-08-2013 10:40pm

If the OP had €900 to send on tests etc, why didn't they just pay VHI/Laya or whatever day 1??

Jumboman · 11-08-2013 10:43pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If the OP had €900 to send on tests etc, why didn't they just pay VHI/Laya or whatever day 1??

I didnt I had to save up the money.

gctest50 · 11-08-2013 10:43pm

Pre-existing condition ?

Anthony16 · 11-08-2013 11:43pm

120k is in the top 1.5% these days afaik

OMD wrote: »

You brought up the point of NCHD pay. Indeed this whole thread revolves around what doctors earn. There is a real argument to be made around the worth of doctors but at least be honest about the income. Implying you are not earning a lot by saying you cannot afford a mortgage or any car less than 15 years old is ridiculous. You can give reasons for this but simply saying it implies you are not earning much. Many people in this country are in that position. You are not. You make a very good living. You yourself probably earn close to double the average wage in this country. Be honest about that and make a point for how you deserve it. I am not saying you are overpaid by any means but a basic pay before any allowances or overtime of 55,000 is excellent money. After overtime this may be close to €80,000 a year. Also despite cuts your pay will still go up with increments so in 3 years time you will be earning substantially more (as will your wife).

A new consultant now will earn about€120,000 (not the 100k you said). Yes this is less than before but it is still a good wage and puts a new consultant automatically into the top 10% of earners in this country. Existing consultants in HSE obviously earn more. Yes they work damn hard for this.

Astala · 11-08-2013 11:54pm

Anthony16 wrote: »

120k is in the top 1.5% these days afaik

They still don't get even close to that amount.

Icemancometh · 12-08-2013 12:06am

OMD wrote: »

Assuming you both work full time in hospitals you will be earning more than 100k or at worst very close to it. You can deny it all you want. Your wife's salary alone will be slightly over 40k http://www.inmo.ie/35. Your salary (before any allowances or overtime is €56,000. You can afford all the things you say you cannot. You have chosen not to buy them as you "are sensible people and have other priorities than buying new cars" but please don't tell us you cannot afford them. That is simply untrue. By the way I am a doctor, was an NCHD so I know the kind of salaries you get and the hours you work. These are the scales before allowances or overtime (which would increase the pay by about 50%).

Intern €34,668.00
SHO
1 €40,173.00
2 €42,450.00
3 €45,853.00
4 €48,079.00
Registrar/SHO
1/5 €52,555.00
2/6 €54,779.00
3/7 €56,950.00
4 €58,547.00
5 €60,677.00
6 €62,814.00
Senior Registrar
1 €68,131.00
2 €70,344.00
3 €72,563.00
4 €74,928.00
5 €77,658.00
6 €80,501.00
7 €83,434.00
Premium Payments*
Scale Point Annual Basic Salary
SpR
1 €62,918.00
2 €64,449.00
3 €66,661.00
4 €69,745.00
5 €73,079.00
6 €76,417.00
7 €79,753.00

Not disagreeing with your thesis, NCHDs are typically on a comfortable wage. But as a point of order, those are fairly old figures. Can't find any nice table I can copy and paste (for some reason the HSE pay scales excludes NCHDs, no idea why). Trinity has a copy of the NCHD contract on its website, the scales are on the last page.

www.medicine.tcd.ie/assets/doc/NCHD-Contract.doc

And my apologies to the OP for going horribly off-topic.

Xeyn · 12-08-2013 1:04am

Icemancometh wrote: »

Not disagreeing with your thesis, NCHDs are typically on a comfortable wage. But as a point of order, those are fairly old figures. Can't find any nice table I can copy and paste (for some reason the HSE pay scales excludes NCHDs, no idea why). Trinity has a copy of the NCHD contract on its website, the scales are on the last page.

www.medicine.tcd.ie/assets/doc/NCHD-Contract.doc

And my apologies to the OP for going horribly off-topic.

Intern
1
€30,257

Senior House Officer
1
€38,839
2
€40,998
3
€44,224
4
€46,334
5
€50,578
6
€52,687
7
€54,746

Registrar
1
€50,578
2
€52,687
3
€54,746
4
€56,260
5
€58,279
6
€60,305

Senior Registrar
1
€65,347
2
€67,392
3
€69,440
4
€71,621
5
€74,139
6
€76,762
7
€79,468

Specialist Registrar
1
€60,404
2
€61,855
3
€63,953
4
€66,840
5
€69,915
6
€72,995
7
€76,062

Xeyn · 12-08-2013 1:12am

Point of fact for OP.
You didn't pay the consultant anything yet. The tests you paid for we're billed by the hospital, the consultant would not see a cent of that. What he / she would have done is possibly see which test was needed and ordered them or they may have been arranged by someone else.
The consultant does not get paid to order tests. Whether he orders a hundred tests or none, unless he/she is performing a specialised test themself, they get paid the same.
Not everything in medicine has a satisfactory answer and there is still a lot that is unknown to modern medicine. But sometimes just excluding serious / life threatening causes for symptoms is energy well spent.

Anthony16 · 12-08-2013 7:38am

That is a gross figure.If u think consultants don't get close to that u are very misinformed.Even the new consultant contracts start at 116k gross.that is a fact

Astala wrote: »

They still don't get even close to that amount.

Astala · 12-08-2013 8:16am

Anthony16 wrote: »

That is a gross figure.If u think consultants don't get close to that u are very misinformed.Even the new consultant contracts start at 116k gross.that is a fact

We have a consultant in our family and he gets €80,000 net income. Don't try to tell me that I'm wrong.

Flange/Flanders · 12-08-2013 8:36am

Astala wrote: »

We have a consultant in our family and he gets €80,000 net income. Don't try to tell me that I'm wrong.

Im very much on your side here but 80k net is a very strong income. I think the confusion arises due to some posters commenting on gross and some commenting on net pay. Gross tax is what the employer pays you, net tax is this gross tax less paye and usc etc. 80k would gross up to well over 100k.

jimeryan22 · 12-08-2013 8:39am

Vorsprung wrote: »

If you had an issue with your car and ended up going to a few mechanics, with the problem only sorted by say the 3rd mechanic, would you not pay the first 2 because they couldn't figure it out?

You mean mechanics expect to be paid when not fixing a problem..?

Anthony16 · 12-08-2013 8:46am

80k net is 150-160 k gross which proves my point.

Astala wrote: »

We have a consultant in our family and he gets €80,000 net income. Don't try to tell me that I'm wrong.

Jack Kyle · 12-08-2013 11:00am

Anthony16 wrote: »

80k net is 150-160 k gross which proves my point.

Nah, it's about €125k/€130k.

Nobody pays 50% tax on their entire income.

Flange/Flanders · 12-08-2013 12:05pm

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Nah, it's about €125k/€130k.

Nobody pays 50% tax on their entire income.

Higher rate of tax 42%, usc7% is nearly 50%.

spurious · 12-08-2013 12:10pm

I don't care what the consultant makes or doesn't make, net or gross. If a service was provided and availed of, you pay for it.
It's really not that hard a concept.

Jack Kyle · 12-08-2013 12:16pm

Flange/Flanders wrote: »

Higher rate of tax 42%, usc7% is nearly 50%.

And nobody pays that on their entire income (as I said earlier).

Some of it's tax free, some of it's at 20%, some of it's subject to USC at 2% and 4%, etc.

What happens if I dont pay a medical bill ?

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