Why can nobody speak Irish?

Iwasfrozen · 10-08-2013 02:40AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

You said Ireland was founded under English tongue. I said it is false, which it is, and you then said well yea but it was the most widely spoken. That makes no difference. It was founded under Irish.

Except the state wasn't founded under the gaelic tounge. The constitution can say what it wants it doesn't change reality and you would be a fool to believe otherwise.

Then, You say Irish is not for practical use. Well practical to who? Yeah probably not you because you do not speak it. But to people that do I am sure they would find it practical.

A language's only use is communication, since everyone who speaks Irish also speaks English that makes the language functionally useless.

But What if everybody in Ireland new Irish? Then you could speak it there. It would be of use for occupations in Ireland. Why do you have to learn French to work in Paris? Because it is necessary for employment and being a member of society. Maybe not useful in some other lands but there it is. We are. Not arguing if it is currently vital for jobs we are saying it could be and would be if reinstated.

If everyone spoke Irish then assuming many don't also speak English then yes the language would be useful. However they don't so it isn't.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 02:44AM

I will heed the advice of others because there is no use arguing with someone who cannot acknowledge facts but instead manipulates these facts to their liking.

Iwasfrozen · 10-08-2013 02:48AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

I will heed the advice of others because there is no use arguing with someone who cannot acknowledge facts but instead manipulates these facts to their liking.

I agree.

Rubeter · 10-08-2013 06:12AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We spoke English in 1922.

Would you care to name the constituent countries of the UK in 1801?
Try telling the people of England or Scotland neither of those countries existed at that time and wait for the lol's.
Did you ever hear of the Kingdom of Ireland.
Ireland didn't exist till 1922, big big LOL.

BognarRegis · 10-08-2013 06:44AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

1) It is not about impressing anybody. Or annoying anybody. It is about taking back your language so you have the main common creed of culture for your people.

We already have a culture and religious diversity. Are you suggesting not just a language change but also a cultural and religious one?

epluribusunum wrote: »

2) Sioux was not, nor any other Indian tribal languages, ever the primary national language of the USA so that does not make any sense. The USA was founded under English tongue as their national primary language. So, it would probably go down awful to be honest.

Would you force the descendants of the Sioux to speak Sioux if they did not want to? And do bear in mind that a great many people here are descended from non-Irish speakers, should hey be forced to speak Irish?

johnny_knoxvile · 10-08-2013 06:55AM

maybe if we spoke Irish in a Sioux accent everyone would be happy.

That's thinking outside the box.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 07:05AM

BognarRegis wrote: »

We already have a culture and religious diversity. Are you suggesting not just a language change but also a cultural and religious one?

Would you force the descendants of the Sioux to speak Sioux if they did not want to? And do bear in mind that a great many people here are descended from non-Irish speakers, should hey be forced to speak Irish?

1.
No, just the language and I am unsure as to where you got the rest of the stuff.

2.
The Sioux were never an established nation. However, Ireland is an established nation with a national primary language of Irish.

There is no comparison between Native Americans and the Irish on this issue. The US never spoke Sioux, but always English.

Grayson · 10-08-2013 09:31AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

2) Sioux was not, nor any other Indian tribal languages, ever the primary national language of the USA so that does not make any sense. The USA was founded under English tongue as their national primary language. So, it would probably go down awful to be honest.

To be fair it was mainly Dutch and french first (I mean New Amsterdam and New Orleans0.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 09:35AM

Grayson wrote: »

To be fair it was mainly Dutch and french first (I mean New Amsterdam and New Orleans0.

I am pretty sure English has always been the national language of the US.

Grayson · 10-08-2013 10:02AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

You said Ireland was founded under English tongue. I said it is false, which it is, and you then said well yea but it was the most widely spoken. That makes no difference. It was founded under Irish.

Even though the government ran its business through english? And the schools taught in english? And the first schoolbooks would have been written in english?
What it says on the constitution doesn't matter. We're talking about the real world.
The constitution was based upon an ideology, not upon a practicality. The majority of citizens in ireland at that time spoke irish as their first language. The majority could not speak irish.
Just like it was ideology ideology which gave the catholic church it's "special position".

Does that mean that everyone in ireland should have been forced to learn catholic catechism?

honestly, everyone everywhere should stop referring to the irish constitution.

epluribusunum wrote: »

Then, You say Irish is not for practical use. Well practical to who? Yeah probably not you because you do not speak it. But to people that do I am sure they would find it practical.

So should we hand out a 3ft torque wrench to everyone? It might be practical for a few people, but it's useless to everyone else. That's what the argument for practicality is about.

epluribusunum wrote: »

But What if everybody in Ireland new Irish? Then you could speak it there. It would be of use for occupations in Ireland. Why do you have to learn French to work in Paris? Because it is necessary for employment and being a member of society. Maybe not useful in some other lands but there it is. We are. Not arguing if it is currently vital for jobs we are saying it could be and would be if reinstated.

If everyone here learned Esperanto we could all speak Esperanto to each other. And that would certainly create a demand for Esperanto speakers.

But all of these arguments for or against irish are silly. Irish is not spoken by the vast majority of irish people. The main reasons are because
1) it's taught crapilly. This makes so many people lose interest and it means that people never actually learn it either. Most Leaving cert students have to study and memorise sentences for their Oral exams. After 12 years of study you'd think they should be able to hold a basic conversation.
and
2) it's not necessary. Except for some government employees/teachers who need it because of regulations it's not used by the vast majority of the population in their day to day lives.

Neither of those factors are going to change any time soon. The state has spent nearly 80 years pouring money into the language and the numbers are as low as they've ever been (I know there was a slight increase of a few thousand in the last census, but I'm ignoring minor fluctuations of a few thousand)

Grayson · 10-08-2013 10:03AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

I am pretty sure English has always been the national language of the US.

Of the USA, yes. But not of the actual land. The first settlers were mainly dutch, spanish and french.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 10:18AM

Grayson wrote: »

Of the USA, yes. But not of the actual land. The first settlers were mainly dutch, spanish and french.

What is the point? There isnt one.

English is the language of the US and Irish is the language of Ireland. You can bring up these facts of history but it will not change other ones. It does not matter what is mostly spoken, for the argument of official language.

Secondly, major point here. I mentioned the Constitution in reponse to 2 people. Because they lied and said that English was their natl primary language and I said not according to the constitution. One then lied again and said but since english was spoken in 1922 it makes it the official one. I am not saying it is the most spoken all i am saying is that it the natl language. How this concept evades you people is ridiculous. I am not arguing with you on it at all. We both know irish is primary and english is mostly used. We are past this.

Wibbs · 10-08-2013 10:32AM

Grayson wrote: »

Of the USA, yes. But not of the actual land. The first settlers were mainly dutch, spanish and french.

German had a large speaking population later on. It was the second most spoken language in the US up to world war 1.

epluribusunum wrote:

English is the language of the US and Irish is the language of Ireland

Not quite. English is one of the languages of the US. It's of course the most spoken one, but Spanish and Chinese to name but two are spoken widely too. As a kid I watched Sesame Street, as you do. RTE got the Californian version so as well as English I picked up some Spanish with it. Interestingly the US doesn't have an official language in law.

English is one of the Languages of Ireland. Irish is another. English is the one most widely spoken by far.

I agree 100% with Grayson where it comes to the constitution as argument. It's a red herring. As G points out and has been pointed out before religion is in the constitution too, but that means little or nothing in practical terms today. Today there are a minority of ardent Catholics, there are a minority of ardent Atheists, while the vast majority don't really care one way or another. Not unlike the way the numbers fall regarding the language.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 10:34AM

Wibbs wrote: »

German had a large speaking population later on. It was the second most spoken language in the US up to world war 1.

Not quite. English is one of the languages of the US. It's of course the most spoken one, but Spanish and Chinese to name but two are spoken widely too. As a kid I watched Sesame Street, as you do. RTE got the Californian version so as well as English I picked up some Spanish with it. Interestingly the US doesn't have an official language in law.

English is one of the Languages of Ireland. Irish is another. English is the one most widely spoken by far.

I agree 100% with Grayson where it comes to the constitution as argument. It's a red herring. As G points out and has been pointed out before religion is in the constitution too, but that means little or nothing in practical terms today. Today there are a minority of ardent Catholics, there are a minority of ardent Atheists, while the vast majority don't really care one way or another. Not unlike the way the numbers fall regarding the language.

Dude I honestly have no idea why you introduced all of this random information.

However, you still do not know the difference between an official and unofficial language it seems.

Wibbs · 10-08-2013 10:56AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

Dude I honestly have no idea why you introduced all of this random information.

Nope it's pertinent, you just don't see it.

However, you still do not know the difference between an official and unofficial language it seems.

You don't seem to realise, it doesn't actually matter in practical terms. The constitution can aspire to whatever it wants, but that's what it is an aspiration, an aspiration that has largely failed. A pity? Yes, but there it is. While Irish is and remains(and hopefully continues to be) a language of Ireland, it will never be the language of Ireland as reflected in the constitutional aspirations of near a century ago. The Irish people have spoken and do so as Bearla. Regardless of one's position the very fact we're even having this debate proves it.

The only way forward I can see is that we have to finally and publicly admit that for the majority of Irish people the Irish language is a "foreign" language to their ears and mouth. This would improve the teaching of it for a start, as currently and since the foundation of the Irish educational system the attitude seems to be that it's somehow part of us and we already know it from the womb. Clearly we don't.

IMHO the near century long approach that it's both "official" and "ours" has done the language far more harm than good, yet it's still being peddled as gospel today.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 11:02AM

I am agreeing with you though. English is the most spoken, but Irish is official. Maybe this is why you are bad at languages I mean jesus christ I am agreeing with you and you find a way to disagree. And yet you are talking about god knows what out of nowhere when I am agreeing with you. English is most sppken and irish is official. It is a matter of fact.

This thread has literally went backwards. We were past this at one point.

Grayson · 10-08-2013 11:41AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

What is the point? There isnt one.

English is the language of the US and Irish is the language of Ireland. You can bring up these facts of history but it will not change other ones. It does not matter what is mostly spoken, for the argument of official language.

Secondly, major point here. I mentioned the Constitution in reponse to 2 people. Because they lied and said that English was their natl primary language and I said not according to the constitution. One then lied again and said but since english was spoken in 1922 it makes it the official one. I am not saying it is the most spoken all i am saying is that it the natl language. How this concept evades you people is ridiculous. I am not arguing with you on it at all. We both know irish is primary and english is mostly used. We are past this.

this is ireland, we can hold grudges for centuries.

But regards to official/primary erc.. You're right it doesn't matter.

Weird thing is it might in the US. I read a few articles a while bacjk. And because the hispanic community is growing so fast it means that in the future (like 10 or 20 years, i can't remember exactly) spanish speakers will outnumber english speakers. It's already pretty close.

We're at a point where irish is very much a minority language, but for some reasons it's the "official" one. However in the US english is the "official" language and the most popular one. But it will be overtaken by spanish. It'll be interesting to see if Spanish is put on an equal footing.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 12:00PM

Grayson wrote: »

this is ireland, we can hold grudges for centuries.

But regards to official/primary erc.. You're right it doesn't matter.

Weird thing is it might in the US. I read a few articles a while bacjk. And because the hispanic community is growing so fast it means that in the future (like 10 or 20 years, i can't remember exactly) spanish speakers will outnumber english speakers. It's already pretty close.

We're at a point where irish is very much a minority language, but for some reasons it's the "official" one. However in the US english is the "official" language and the most popular one. But it will be overtaken by spanish. It'll be interesting to see if Spanish is put on an equal footing.

Yeah, that was a bigger issue a while back but I do not really ever hear of it anymore. But Spanish will not overtake English in the U.S. As Wibbs pointed out there were many German speakers in North Dakota and Texas and some other states before WWI but after it they stopped teaching it. Spanish will fade out especially after the borders are secure and they stop coming. The only reason it is so high now is because most are 1st or 2nd generation. They will become Americanized like every other nationality and eventually it will be phased out. They are really concentrated in urban areas too, so it is not like it covers that much land so it will fall like dominoes.

English will remain in both the US and Ireland as most popular I do believe.

But I just think Ireland should overtake the hurdle of becoming a proficient nation in Irish even though it may be inconvenient or time-consuming, and not useful outside of Ireland. And obviously, most of you disagree which I knew was the case beforehand. I lived there. I do not know why I feel this way but I guess I am a very nationalistic type of person so that may be why. I am done debating it though because at the end of the day it is the same points mentioned that the two sides will never agree on.

Grayson · 10-08-2013 12:17PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

Yeah, that was a bigger issue a while back but I do not really ever hear of it anymore. But Spanish will not overtake English in the U.S. As Wibbs pointed out there were many German speakers in North Dakota and Texas and some other states before WWI but after it they stopped teaching it. Spanish will fade out especially after the borders are secure and they stop coming. The only reason it is so high now is because most are 1st or 2nd generation. They will become Americanized like every other nationality and eventually it will be phased out. They are really concentrated in urban areas too, so it is not like it covers that much land so it will fall like dominoes.

English will remain in both the US and Ireland as most popular I do believe.

But I just think Ireland should overtake the hurdle of becoming a proficient nation in Irish even though it may be inconvenient or time-consuming, and not useful outside of Ireland. And obviously, most of you disagree which I knew was the case beforehand. I lived there. I do not know why I feel this way but I guess I am a very nationalistic type of person so that may be why. I am done debating it though because at the end of the day it is the same points mentioned that the two sides will never agree on.

german stopped being spoken because no-one wanted to be associated with germany because of two world wars. Unless Mexico starts a war it'll be a different scenario.

As I've said in a previous post, the reason no-one can speak irish is because of the absolutely useless way it's been taught. Thank fcuk they got Peig off the curriculum. But that was too little too late. When you consider the money that is spent on irish (estimates place it at a billion a year) and the fact that a child starts learning it at 4 and continues till they're 17/18 it's embarrassing that they can hardly speak it. If it was taught properly a child would be fluent by the time they left secondary school.
I think we can split the argument for/against irish into two parts.
One part is should we teach it. The arguments for that are usually cultural. It's our ancient heritage. It's our culture etc...
The other part that doesn't get as much coverage (probably because the cultural aspect is so emotive) is can we teach it successfully? Because if we can't do it we are wasting so much money. There's no point even trying if we're just making the same mistakes over and over again.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-08-2013 12:19PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

But I just think Ireland should overtake the hurdle of becoming a proficient nation in Irish even though it may be inconvenient or time-consuming, and not useful outside of Ireland. And obviously, most of you disagree which I knew was the case beforehand. I lived there. I do not know why I feel this way but I guess I am a very nationalistic type of person so that may be why. I am done debating it though because at the end of the day it is the same points mentioned that the two sides will never agree on.

The problem with anyone wishing that is that they do not take into account the will of the people. If something - anything - is inconvenient, time-consuming and not useful, people well tend not to want to do it - that's just common sense!

Until that point is accepted, yes - there can be no agreement.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 12:24PM

Grayson wrote: »

german stopped being spoken because no-one wanted to be associated with germany because of two world wars. Unless Mexico starts a war it'll be a different scenario.

As I've said in a previous post, the reason no-one can speak irish is because of the absolutely useless way it's been taught. Thank fcuk they got Peig off the curriculum. But that was too little too late. When you consider the money that is spent on irish (estimates place it at a billion a year) and the fact that a child starts learning it at 4 and continues till they're 17/18 it's embarrassing that they can hardly speak it. If it was taught properly a child would be fluent by the time they left secondary school.
I think we can split the argument for/against irish into two parts.
One part is should we teach it. The arguments for that are usually cultural. It's our ancient heritage. It's our culture etc...
The other part that doesn't get as much coverage (probably because the cultural aspect is so emotive) is can we teach it successfully? Because if we can't do it we are wasting so much money. There's no point even trying if we're just making the same mistakes over and over again.

There is no way Spanish will overtake the U.S.

Yeah, the second part is consistent with what I was saying. Rehabilitate the educational aspect. It can be done, no question. It is really a matter of is it worth it to the people? The answer is no. That is fine.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 12:26PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The problem with anyone wishing that is that they do not take into account the will of the people. If something - anything - is inconvenient, time-consuming and not useful, people well tend not to want to do it - that's just common sense!

Until that point is accepted, yes - there can be no agreement.

You do not know what we were debating, because we are really in agreement on all of the issues to be honest.

hotmail.com · 10-08-2013 12:29PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

I am agreeing with you though. English is the most spoken, but Irish is official. Maybe this is why you are bad at languages I mean jesus christ I am agreeing with you and you find a way to disagree. And yet you are talking about god knows what out of nowhere when I am agreeing with you. English is most sppken and irish is official. It is a matter of fact.

This thread has literally went backwards. We were past this at one point.

English is also the official langauge of the State.

hotmail.com · 10-08-2013 12:32PM

Grayson wrote: »

german stopped being spoken because no-one wanted to be associated with germany because of two world wars. Unless Mexico starts a war it'll be a different scenario.

As I've said in a previous post, the reason no-one can speak irish is because of the absolutely useless way it's been taught. Thank fcuk they got Peig off the curriculum. But that was too little too late. When you consider the money that is spent on irish (estimates place it at a billion a year) and the fact that a child starts learning it at 4 and continues till they're 17/18 it's embarrassing that they can hardly speak it. If it was taught properly a child would be fluent by the time they left secondary school.
I think we can split the argument for/against irish into two parts.
One part is should we teach it. The arguments for that are usually cultural. It's our ancient heritage. It's our culture etc...
The other part that doesn't get as much coverage (probably because the cultural aspect is so emotive) is can we teach it successfully? Because if we can't do it we are wasting so much money. There's no point even trying if we're just making the same mistakes over and over again.

Wrong.

Kids realise from a young age that Irish is pointless and just don't bother to learn it properly and only go along with it because they are forced to.

So let's not blame the way it's taught. It's such a cop out.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 12:35PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

English is also the official langauge of the State.

Not the primary.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 10-08-2013 12:38PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

You do not know what we were debating, because we are really in agreement on all of the issues to be honest.

If you're debating that English is not the primary lanaguge of the State in any way other than what's written on a piece of paper, and that it's in the interests of ALL Irish people to force Irish into a comeback, then no...

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 12:42PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The problem with anyone wishing that is that they do not take into account the will of the people. If something - anything - is inconvenient, time-consuming and not useful, people well tend not to want to do it - that's just common sense!

Until that point is accepted, yes - there can be no agreement.

I seriously hope this is not how you live your life. There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going Princess.

Most people do time-consuming, not useful, inconvenient things as their pastimes. What about the 30 year old who plays football on the weekend? Time-consuming, not useful, inconvenient. Or the person that volunteers on weeknights? Time-consuming, not-useful, inconvenient.

Terrible excuses on how to live a life really.

However, we already past this point as well. We have agreed these are the reasons and I do not think they suffice but I am fine with them not wanting to change for those reasons because I really do not care to be honest. It is not my home, and it is all inevitable anyway.

hotmail.com · 10-08-2013 12:44PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

Not the primary.

Your last post said that English was not official. That was wrong. English and Irish are the official languages of the State.

epluribusunum · 10-08-2013 12:48PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Your last post said that English was not official. That was wrong. English and Irish are the official languages of the State.

They knew what I was getting at as we had been discussing it back and forth. Way to nit-pick, how special do you feel? Big win for ya, atta boy.

Plus it is more official than English anyway. 1 is better than 2.

hotmail.com · 10-08-2013 12:50PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

They knew what I was getting at as we had been discussing it back and forth. Way to nit-pick, how special do you feel? Big win for ya, atta boy.

Plus it is more official than English anyway. 1 is better than 2.

99% speak English. I think that clears up the order of officialness.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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