Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

Jawgap · 08-08-2013 08:01AM #1

From the Beeb.....

There are more bicycles than residents in The Netherlands and in cities like Amsterdam and The Hague up to 70% of all journeys are made by bike. The BBC's Hague correspondent, Anna Holligan, who rides an omafiets - or "granny style" - bike complete with wicker basket and pedal-back brakes, examines what made everyone get back in the saddle.

The 70s velo-rution
Before World War II, journeys in the Netherlands were predominantly made by bike, but in the 1950s and 1960s, as car ownership rocketed, this changed. As in many countries in Europe, roads became increasingly congested and cyclists were squeezed to the kerb.

The jump in car numbers caused a huge rise in the number of deaths on the roads. In 1971 more than 3,000 people were killed by motor vehicles, 450 of them children.

In response a social movement demanding safer cycling conditions for children was formed. Called Stop de Kindermoord (Stop the Child Murder), it took its name from the headline of an article written by journalist Vic Langenhoff whose own child had been killed in a road accident.

Interesting to contrast the Irish response to improving road safety to the Dutch response.

ednwireland · 08-08-2013 08:16AM

Jawgap wrote: »

From the Beeb.....

Interesting to contrast the Irish response to improving road safety to the Dutch response.

this was on newsnight last night wasnt it, there was a quote from some motoring lobby guy saying that cycling was possibly the most dangerous thing you could do and that everyone should use public transport (no doubt car drivers). pretty much says it all

it also showed how bad londons clue cycle lanes were. too narrow and blocked with traffic

it definitly showed how entrenched anti commuting cyclling views are (and i'm guessing its the same here, i saw 2 cars on my cycle to work so i doubt i'm in much of a postion to comment on what cycling facilities are like as i dont have any )

juansheet · 08-08-2013 08:22AM

Its flat

nordicb · 08-08-2013 08:37AM

It's overpopulated country - easiest way to get to the destination is by bike.

Also their taxes are based on car weight and diesels in contrast to Ireland are way more expensive to tax. Fuel prices are among the highest in Europe.

Have to add, they have quite developed infrastructure for cycling, can cycle from city to city on cycling paths. I've read somewhere they have about 70m of cycle path per person in the country. However it is a highway based and a very restrictive country too. It means if you got a road bike you may never fulfill your desire of going fast as most roads do not allow cycling on them and cycling paths are too slow, or too uneven. Ireland is much more enjoyable to cycle despite having no cycling paths and it also got hills

Oh wait, they might "get" one too here!

galwaycyclist · 08-08-2013 10:21AM

Jawgap wrote: »

From the Beeb.....

Interesting to contrast the Irish response to improving road safety to the Dutch response.

This is the issue. The Stop de Kindermoord campaign got the support of the Dutch National media who highlighted what was going on and made life uncomfortable for the politicians. Eventually the central government paid for people from Stop de Kindermoord to work in the local authorities to advise on making Dutch towns and cities safer.

To compare and contrast with Ireland, in 1998 we had the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe. From memory we kept that record in 1999 and 2001. There was no media campaign. The newspapers and broadcast media did not "investigate" or "demand action". At the time, and to be fair to them, the old National Safety Council (precursors to the RSA) did acknowledge the issue in their press releases on Ireland's safety record. However, I recall this awkward fact being left out of newspaper articles based on those same press releases.

In Ireland we have a journalism profession and a National Media who are open to the accusation that they see themselves as motorists first and as journalists second. They could be accused of treating Irish children's safety as expendable in pursuit of their own lifestyle choices and the commercial interests of key advertising sectors i.e. the motor trade.

This ties in with other themes such as the role of the Irish media in fueling and pushing the property bubble that has left the country in such a mess.

It is also useful to compare and contrast the historical lack of media urgency about child deaths on the roads with the current hand-wringing over cyber bullying and the associated teen suicides.

sbsquarepants · 08-08-2013 10:25AM

2 words.
NO MOUNTAINS

DirkVoodoo · 08-08-2013 10:51AM

Dublin is not a hilly city to get around, the success of the Dublin bike scheme has showed that.

The problem is that many people still cling to their cars as the best way to get around, or as some kind of identity/status symbol.

I remember at school there was a teacher who cycled in every day, students used to ask why he couldn't afford a car. We still have the perception that bikes are for poor people and cars show you are a success. Must be a hangover from the Celtic Tiger, but I know people who will drive even a walking distance.

Granted, in parts of rural Ireland it just isn't that feasible to cycle everywhere.

Squidgy Black · 08-08-2013 11:23AM

Town isn't hilly, but the suburbs are, the Netherlands are flat like a pancake. Less of a social pressure to drive as well.

ford2600 · 08-08-2013 11:27AM

Lots of social reasons, but also cycling is much cheaper. Every see a dutch person buy a round?

Morgan · 08-08-2013 11:29AM

Here's an interesting episode of The Bike Show covering Dutch cycling:

http://thebikeshow.net/what-it-really-means-to-go-dutch/

monument · 08-08-2013 11:35AM

To all those saying the Netherlands is flat --

This might be a reason for you or a reason in your mind why others don't cycle, but, at a population level, survey after survey ranks danger far, far higher a reason why more people don't cycle here.

Tails142 · 08-08-2013 11:37AM

It's flat, hills are dangerous... dangeously tiring

hfallada · 08-08-2013 11:38AM

In Dublin in the 1950s a lot of people used to cycle everywhere. Look at a old photo of O Connell St. and there a ton of people on bikes but only a few on cars. But back then a majority of people living in the city only were really only 4/5kms from the city centre.

I went to School in Germany for 4 weeks and everyone in small towns cycle everywhere. Outside most shops is a proper bicycle rack( good luck finding a chain a bike to in Dublin 1). In the school there was space for over 300 bicycles in the yard and the basement had over 300 more sheltered from the rain. All footpaths have a lane for bicycles meaning you arent dodging trucks like in Dublin.

I would cycle to town more, but I find it hand to find a place to chain a bike. There is very few new bicycle racks to chain a bike to in Dublin. But yet there is more bikes than ever in it. Its a pity that DCC wouldnt replace some of the useless tiny grass strips in the city with places to park bicycles.

PerrDub · 08-08-2013 11:42AM

I would say Dublin is reasonably hilly in places...

Cycling around Dutch cities you hardly break a sweat it's so flat...

But to answer the OP's question... It's embedded in the culture over there, however don't be fooled, the Motoring lobby is still powerful and is always battling with the local government and cycling groups for more access to town/city centres and more controls on cyclists....

Chips Lovell · 08-08-2013 11:45AM

Dutch cycling numbers have always been very high when compared to other countries, even going back to the beginning of the 20th century.

So while stuff like Stop de Kindermoord that the BBC mentioned probably helped halt and reverse somewhat the slide in cycling numbers, they were coming off a much, much higher base than most other European countries.

Cyclepath · 08-08-2013 11:45AM

Dutch motorists don't appear to believe they have a superior right to use the road. In my experience cycling in the Netherlands (both rurally and in the city) cars and bikes have equal status. Motorists don't think they can blow their horn simply because a bike is in front of them, nor do they exhibit exaggerated responses to the slightest perceived mistake on the part of a cyclist.

It's about status and rights in the public mindset. The excellent infrastructure for cyclists reinforces this notion of equality for all road users.

DirkVoodoo · 08-08-2013 11:48AM

Where is Dublin hilly? Seriously, show me.

I cycled in Sydney last year, that is seriously hilly. Not so much long drags, but short sharp 20% type inclines. Those are seriously tiring when you are commuting. Long drags are not so bad: Foster's Avenue, etc. and can mostly be bypassed.

The city centre is as flat as a pancake.

monument · 08-08-2013 11:57AM

hfallada wrote: »

In Dublin in the 1950s a lot of people used to cycle everywhere. Look at a old photo of O Connell St. and there a ton of people on bikes but only a few on cars. But back then a majority of people living in the city only were really only 4/5kms from the city centre.

In 2006 almost 100,000 people in Dublin drove 4km or less to work!

We really have to get past the myth that the majority are now doing really long commutes.

EB_2013 · 08-08-2013 11:59AM

They also cycle those old style dutch bikes which I hear rarely get nicked and they can leave them unlocked so that probably helps encourage a bit towards the high numbers cycling.

ford2600 · 08-08-2013 12:03PM

EB_2013 wrote: »

They also cycle those old style dutch bikes which I hear rarely get nicked and they can leave them unlocked so that probably helps encourage a bit towards the high numbers cycling.

Bike theft in Amsterdam is mental

PerrDub · 08-08-2013 12:04PM

Maybe not hilly to someone like you Dirk...I meant more of an average commuter...

Anywhere West of D1, D2, parts of D4 is defo quicker one way than the other... I'm not saying it's San Franciso, but still, compared to a flat Dutch city there are plenty of places where your average commuter would have to use a lower gear...

PerrDub · 08-08-2013 12:07PM

ford2600 wrote: »

Bike theft in Amsterdam is mental

Yes... that's why everyone cycles those ancient old bikes, rarely will you ever see someone on a shiny new bike unless they are out training, defo not commuting on a modern hybrid bike

EB_2013 · 08-08-2013 12:10PM

ford2600 wrote: »

Bike theft in Amsterdam is mental

Is it that bad? I thought that with so many bikes nobody would bother. Also the bikes are pretty basic.

Squidgy Black · 08-08-2013 12:13PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Where is Dublin hilly? Seriously, show me.

I cycled in Sydney last year, that is seriously hilly. Not so much long drags, but short sharp 20% type inclines. Those are seriously tiring when you are commuting. Long drags are not so bad: Foster's Avenue, etc. and can mostly be bypassed.

The city centre is as flat as a pancake.

Majority of the northside as you head north from town isn't flat. The Malahide road, Swords road and Gracepark road are all a pain in the arse when you're cycling home full clothed after a days work.

Bike theft in Amsterdam is mental, much worse than over here.

Chips Lovell · 08-08-2013 12:21PM

ford2600 wrote: »

Bike theft in Amsterdam is mental

EB_2013 wrote: »

Is it that bad? I thought that with so many bikes nobody would bother. Also the bikes are pretty basic.

Over 100,000 bikes stolen in the Netherlands in 2011.

5,176 stolen in Ireland in 2011.

Those figures would needs to be weighted for population (16.6 million vs 4.6m million) and bike ownership levels

DirkVoodoo · 08-08-2013 12:23PM

stetyrrell wrote: »

Majority of the northside as you head north from town isn't flat. The Malahide road, Swords road and Gracepark road are all a pain in the arse when you're cycling home full clothed after a days work.

Bike theft in Amsterdam is mental, much worse than over here.

Yeah, but no one cycles on the northside, right?

I had to commute from Paddington to Mosman in Sydney 4-5 days per week. That was torture on a singlespeed, even a geared bike made it hard. Constantly up and down the whole way, very little flat if any.

Dublin is far easier by comparison, the hardest part is the wind here can be tough at times.

Squidgy Black · 08-08-2013 12:28PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Yeah, but no one cycles on the northside, right?

It's all changing now, easier to get away from the Garda on our bikes now, and we get new bikes any time we visit Drury street.

monument · 08-08-2013 12:37PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Dutch cycling numbers have always been very high when compared to other countries, even going back to the beginning of the 20th century.

So while stuff like Stop de Kindermoord that the BBC mentioned probably helped halt and reverse somewhat the slide in cycling numbers, they were coming off a much, much higher base than most other European countries.

I guess you're thinking or half thinking of this chart or one like it: http://mighkwilson.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/dutch-cycling-history.jpg

The numbers cycling in many cities in the Netherlands keeps rising -- some notable rises too.

In many ways the current Dutch cycling numbers are as or more impressive than figures from the 50s etc... As today they have on adverage far longer commutes, wide-spread access to cars and the likes of Amsterdam has metro lines and good rail services.

Across Ireland cycling has some hope of getting people out of cars while public transport can't be provided well in many of our cities, never mind towns. In Co Dublin cycling numbers could well reach bus user type modal share within the next decade - that should be a wake up call. So-far cycling paths and lanes are dismal but yet cycling share is climbing despite what's in the ground!

seamus · 08-08-2013 12:39PM

We should probably have gotten this out of the way earlier. Someone else can post the links:

Myths:

1. Dublin is too hilly (the elevation difference between two points inside the M50 boundary is rarely more than 0.5%, which is practically flat)
2. It rains too much in Dublin (rains more in Amsterdam)
3. Bike theft in Dublin is too big*
4. Commutes are too long (the majority of commutes are 10km or less)

Any others?

*Bike theft in Netherlands is also big, but a post here a while back suggested that there was a kind of pseudo-sharing scheme in operation. Go to a Dutch city and you will see hundreds, literally, of bikes parked at the side of the road unlocked. Etiquette if you find your bike has been stolen, is to simply take the closest bike to it which is unlocked and cycle off. Because there are so many bikes, bike theft basically becomes a non-problem because nobody is left without a bike. If you have a bike that you really want to hold onto, you either don't ride it into the city or you lock it

Squidgy Black · 08-08-2013 12:54PM

seamus wrote: »

We should probably have gotten this out of the way earlier. Someone else can post the links:

Myths:

1. Dublin is too hilly (the elevation difference between two points inside the M50 boundary is rarely more than 0.5%, which is practically flat)
2. It rains too much in Dublin (rains more in Amsterdam)
3. Bike theft in Dublin is too big*
4. Commutes are too long (the majority of commutes are 10km or less)

Any others?

*Bike theft in Netherlands is also big, but a post here a while back suggested that there was a kind of pseudo-sharing scheme in operation. Go to a Dutch city and you will see hundreds, literally, of bikes parked at the side of the road unlocked. Etiquette if you find your bike has been stolen, is to simply take the closest bike to it which is unlocked and cycle off. Because there are so many bikes, bike theft basically becomes a non-problem because nobody is left without a bike. If you have a bike that you really want to hold onto, you either don't ride it into the city or you lock it

Parts of the Malahide road hit 4% according to mapmyride. Amsterdam also has much better facilities for cyclists, with a lot of bike paths that aren't on roads, so the myth of cycling being extremely dangerous is non existent over there, in fact helmets are a rare commodity. Bike theft in Dublin isn't a problem if people just lock their bikes properly, how many posts in the Stolen Bikes thread have we seen that people are still using cheap cable locks and combo locks?

Iwannahurl · 08-08-2013 12:59PM

seamus wrote: »

We should probably have gotten this out of the way earlier. Someone else can post the links:

Myths:

1. Dublin is too hilly (the elevation difference between two points inside the M50 boundary is rarely more than 0.5%, which is practically flat)
2. It rains too much in Dublin (rains more in Amsterdam)
3. Bike theft in Dublin is too big*
4. Commutes are too long (the majority of commutes are 10km or less)

Any others?

*Bike theft in Netherlands is also big, but a post here a while back suggested that there was a kind of pseudo-sharing scheme in operation. Go to a Dutch city and you will see hundreds, literally, of bikes parked at the side of the road unlocked. Etiquette if you find your bike has been stolen, is to simply take the closest bike to it which is unlocked and cycle off. Because there are so many bikes, bike theft basically becomes a non-problem because nobody is left without a bike. If you have a bike that you really want to hold onto, you either don't ride it into the city or you lock it

Correct: topography is a red herring, imo.

For that to be a real causal factor you would have to see a consistent correlation in and between countries in terms of modal share for cycling versus 'hilliness'.

You'd also have to factor in time trends. The modal share for cycling in Ireland dropped inexorably over many years.

According to the CSO, close to 20,000 fewer people cycled to work in 2011 compared with 1986, when the number of cyclists was at its peak. The share of commuters cycling to work in 2006 was 2.4 per cent, as opposed to 7.2 per cent recorded in 1986.

With regard to children cycling the CSO says in its 2011 report on commuting patterns:

The number of secondary school students travelling to school on a bicycle has decreased from a peak of 50,648 in 1986 to 6,592 in 2011, a fall of 87 per cent. The decline in the number of girls using a bicycle has been particularly stark, falling from over 19,000 in 1986 to only 529 in 2011.

Likewise the proportion of Third Level students cycling to college dropped precipitously from around 25% in 1986 to 5% in 2006.

Did Ireland suddenly start to get hillier in the 70s and 80s? No, it was societal change that made the difference.

A point made earlier was that there was already a substantial number of cyclists in the Netherlands. They were, like Irish cyclists, put under serious pressure by mass motorisation, but in the Netherlands the civic and political response was clearly different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

Why is cycling so popular in the Netherlands?

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