Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

devnull · 07-08-2013 11:09PM

psinno wrote: »

Unless it is paid at normal hourly rates regular overtime is a waste of money.
They should just employ the right number of drivers.

On an average month, how many hours overtime would a worker get on average?

end of the road · 07-08-2013 11:11PM

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

So what's the latest with the strike. The talks going well?

yes

devnull · 07-08-2013 11:11PM

end of the road wrote: »

yes

Source?

Foxtrol · 07-08-2013 11:13PM

cdebru wrote: »

Did I say it was a bad idea ?

Traditionally drivers could work long hours and some did now they can't the reasoning behind it is sound, but that doesn't pay your bills.

Anyone during who plans their budget around overtime is an idiot and the exact kind people who the banks were stupid enough to give mortgages to which played a big part in the mess the country is in.

There should be little to no overtime in a well run company outside of peak periods, how overtime becomes an entitlement and a cut is beyond me.

Gatling · 07-08-2013 11:14PM

cdebru wrote: »

Because your mammy does it ?

Yeah my mother was a dentist, so I can fix your teeth if you want, I obviously would know more than most.

Don't worry I am sure she did love you, it explains the bitterness though.

Zero cuts in five years

1,2,3,4,5 years

JRant · 07-08-2013 11:16PM

I have no idea what a driver earns and frankly don't care. I do know what i earn and how much it costs to use the bus as a means of transport.

If i'm heading into town by myself the bus costs €2:15 e/w, it's only a 10 min trip. If the OH wants to do a shop in town it's €4:30 e/w for the two of us. That's €8:60 to get the bus, so we just jump in the car as parking only costs €2:60 p/hr. Stay there for 3 hours and it's still cheaper than the bus. On nights out if there's 3 or more of us then getting a taxi into town rather than a bus is a no-brainer.

The reason DB are struggling is because they are just too expensive for the shorter trips. Making shorter fares cheaper is the only way to increase numbers using the service.

If we are hit with even more fare increases then the drivers will have a lot more to worry about than overtime rates.

Megatron!! · 07-08-2013 11:19PM

cdebru wrote: »

Because your mammy does it ?

Yeah my mother was a dentist, so I can fix your teeth if you want, I obviously would know more than most.

Don't worry I am sure she did love you, it explains the bitterness though.

@ cdebru

You (I had to edit this line as you are not worth a ban), I cannot believe the crap you have been spouting on here. I have read every single post from the start of this thread and you are totally deluded. You do nothing but troll the argument that the pay is not this or that and then drip feed figures to others expecting them to post what you clearly know but refuse to share. Why is this, maybe because you know the second you said 38.5 was an average EVERONE will know how bloody greedy you are.

You should be earning 30k and like it. It is not a highly skilled job its driving a bus mate. You do your lessons and get your license. Not like you actually have a degree or anything other than a piece of paper that says you drive a larger than normal vehicle. Did you go to university to become qualified????? No I didnt think so. Do your colleagues a favor and stop posting as when people see the outright cheek of you they will associate it with how DB drivers think. All your doing is turning people who did support against yourselves.

As for most of the above I dont believe every bus driver or even a small fraction have your great social skills:rolleyes:. After the tripe you have posted you should be put in the post room as I wouldnt want you driving my bus with your attitude

devnull · 07-08-2013 11:19PM

Foxtrol wrote: »

Anyone during who plans their budget around overtime is an idiot and the exact kind people who the banks were stupid enough to give mortgages to which played a big part in the mess the country is in.

I was going to say the same thing, it's living beyond their means, making calculations and purchases based around overtime that is not certain to be available. The only thing that is certain is what is written in your contract.

There should be little to no overtime in a well run company outside of peak periods, how overtime becomes an entitlement and a cut is beyond me.

Overtime should be used to cover unforseen events, such as sickness, service or traffic disruption, major events that require extra buses or when buses are privately hired for community work.

An efficient business should keep overtime to a minimum, but back during the Bus Eireann strike, there was a guy who was saying he was scheduled to work overtime and had been doing so for several months on regular days when none of the above apply, which is simply bad management, since overtime should never be scheduled and ongoing for months at a time, since if it is, it indicates there is a staffing level problem.

devnull · 07-08-2013 11:21PM

JRant wrote: »

I have no idea what a driver earns and frankly don't care. I do know what i earn and how much it costs to use the bus as a means of transport.

If i'm heading into town by myself the bus costs €2:15 e/w, it's only a 10 min trip. If the OH wants to do a shop in town it's €4:30 e/w for the two of us. That's €8:60 to get the bus, so we just jump in the car as parking only costs €2:60 p/hr. Stay there for 3 hours and it's still cheaper than the bus. On nights out if there's 3 or more of us then getting a taxi into town rather than a bus is a no-brainer.

The reason DB are struggling is because they are just too expensive for the shorter trips. Making shorter fares cheaper is the only way to increase numbers using the service.

If we are hit with even more fare increases then the drivers will have a lot more to worry about than overtime rates.

The trouble with cheap short trip fares is people pay the lowest possible fare and then stay on the bus for the length of it's journey. That is why such cheap fares are withdrawn in many cities and countries abroad, since too many people abuse it. So I have to take DB's side here.

The fact is true, the fine has been increased to 100 euro if you do this, but seeing as it's rare to see inspectors around at all, even if you got a 100 euro fine once a year, the revenue cheating passenger would still have saved more money than they lost by the find over the course of the year if they're taking two drips a day.

devnull · 07-08-2013 11:25PM

How many hours is a Dublin Bus driver contracted for at normal rates?

The reason I ask is so I know after how many hours overtime rates apply.

If someone is working overtime constantly the same hours, then surely it would make sense to increase the contracted hours to reflect this from a company point of view, so they pay normal rates rather than overtime rates, since they know that staff member is going to work those hours anyway every week.

This provides the staff member with a certain number of hours they work per week that is higher, meaning they are certain of getting work for such hours, meaning that they have some certainty over their income, rather than overtime which may be offered, but is not certain.

Or would the drivers say that ahh, I'd rather have less hours, since that gives me capacity to earn 1.5x pay (if offered) for the extra hours where being contracted would ensure I was paid for the hours whether work was there are not, but just at a lower rate.

JRant · 07-08-2013 11:31PM

cdebru wrote: »

I agree, but that does not mean it has not had any affect on earnings, if they decided that drivers should only work 25 hours a week for safety reasons and paid drivers just for the 25 hours it would obviously affect your earnings even if it improved safety.

You could look at the upper pay limit available in your job, within those hours, and come to the conclusion that you're not being paid enough. That's a perfectly normal thing to experience. Now you have two options:
1: Suck it up and make do or
2: retrain into a profession with a greater capacity for higher earnings.

To call a safety measure, that is in the best interest of the drivers, a pay cut is simply wrong.

JRant · 07-08-2013 11:37PM

devnull wrote: »

The trouble with cheap short trip fares is people pay the lowest possible fare and then stay on the bus for the length of it's journey. That is why such cheap fares are withdrawn in many cities and countries abroad, since too many people abuse it. So I have to take DB's side here.

The fact is true, the fine has been increased to 100 euro if you do this, but seeing as it's rare to see inspectors around at all, even if you got a 100 euro fine once a year, the revenue cheating passenger would still have saved more money than they lost by the find over the course of the year if they're taking two drips a day.

That's a fair enough point. Unfortunately it is also driving people away from the service.

KyussBishop · 08-08-2013 12:01AM

Eoin wrote: »

No, the public interest is broader than just employment issues. And there's the fact that a lot of workers do NOT support the workers in this dispute.

I never said the public interest is limited to employment issues. I said the vast majority of the public are workers, and thus the interests of those workers the majority of the public, are in the public interest.

I didn't say anything about employment issues.

Eoin wrote: »

No you don't. It's not for workers' unions to look at non-employment issues. There will be a conflict of interests somewhere. It's simply not their place, and given that they all share, by their very nature, the same political position, it makes no sense whatsoever for them to be the voice of the people on topics that are not related to employment. It's a ludicrous suggestion.

Listen - I understand the strike; it's a members' club doing what their fees require them to do. I and many others don't agree with it, but that's a different thing. But unions are not for all workers, and they are certainly not who a lot of people want representing them on non-employment issues.

Please stop trying to dress this up as something that's good for the public. It's not. It's an inherently self-serving action that is demonstrably not in the public interest. Let's at least be honest here.

I don't think the public should so readily discard with the political power of unions (what other public lobby groups have nearly as much political power?), when they are the most powerful way the public can push back against bad economic policy.

Bad economic policy, is an employment issue too in the end, seeing as it leads to massive unemployment.

Eoin · 08-08-2013 12:24AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

I never said the public interest is limited to employment issues. I said the vast majority of the public are workers, and thus the interests of those workers the majority of the public, are in the public interest.

I didn't say anything about employment issues.

This whole thing is nothing but an employment issue for a small number of workers. It's not for the greater good, nor in the interests of the public. I can't see how that's so hard to admit.

KyussBishop wrote: »

I don't think the public should so readily discard with the political power of unions (what other public lobby groups have nearly as much political power?), when they are the most powerful way the public can push back against bad economic policy.

Bad economic policy, is an employment issue too in the end, seeing as it leads to massive unemployment.

Bad economic policy leads to lots of things. Bad public service management leads to way too many people employed in many public sector organisations. Will the unions fight for streamlining them for the good of the public? Will the unions argue in favour of reducing the minimum wage to make it more affordable for small businesses to hire people? No - because it's contrary to their purpose.

Stabshauptmann · 08-08-2013 12:59AM

Megatron!! wrote: »

@ cdebru

You (I had to edit this line as you are not worth a ban), I cannot believe the crap you have been spouting on here. I have read every single post from the start of this thread and you are totally deluded. You do nothing but troll the argument that the pay is not this or that and then drip feed figures to others expecting them to post what you clearly know but refuse to share. Why is this, maybe because you know the second you said 38.5 was an average EVERONE will know how bloody greedy you are.

You should be earning 30k and like it. It is not a highly skilled job its driving a bus mate. You do your lessons and get your license. Not like you actually have a degree or anything other than a piece of paper that says you drive a larger than normal vehicle. Did you go to university to become qualified????? No I didnt think so. Do your colleagues a favor and stop posting as when people see the outright cheek of you they will associate it with how DB drivers think. All your doing is turning people who did support against yourselves.

As for most of the above I dont believe every bus driver or even a small fraction have your great social skills:rolleyes:. After the tripe you have posted you should be put in the post room as I wouldnt want you driving my bus with your attitude

Truer words never been spoken, cdebru does more for the anti union lobbey than a PD's wet dream. You think any other DB drivers would have taken his shovel away by now

Stabshauptmann · 08-08-2013 01:23AM

cdebru wrote: »

Where did I say average driver earnings were 38.5k ?

I said basic salary including shift allowances is 38.5k

Wait, are you saying that 38.5k is the minimum a driver earns? Surely not?!

Bottom line

1 on 190k
9 on over 100k
7 depots with at least 4 or 5 managers per depot about 70- 90k
20 odd chief inspectors on about 80k
150 odd inspectors on about 60k
Other head office staff
Supervisors
Clerical execs
Lead hands etc etc etc all on basic salaries higher than a drivers basic wage.

So

So let me get this straight; after using YOUR figures I said that for a driver to earn 38.5k, that means that the average salary for non-drivers in Dublin Bus is 61K.

So you've given us updated figures which, guess what, still shows the average non-driver in Dublin Bus earns 61K!! :P:P:P

Approx Avg Salary No. Employees Net
CEO 190 1 190
Senior Management 110 9 990
Depo Manager 80 32 2,560
Chief Inspector 80 20 1,600
Inspector 60 150 9,000
"Other staff all paid more than a driver"* 60 867 51,603
Bus Drivers 39 2,157 83,057

Total 3,236 149,000

* Using your figure of only 2/3s of employees are drivers we can infer the number of remaining employees after deducting all the ones you listed. We can do likewise for total pay and average pay.

Way to prove your point!! :pac:

cdebru · 08-08-2013 04:57AM

devnull wrote: »

I was going to say the same thing, it's living beyond their means, making calculations and purchases based around overtime that is not certain to be available. The only thing that is certain is what is written in your contract.

Overtime should be used to cover unforseen events, such as sickness, service or traffic disruption, major events that require extra buses or when buses are privately hired for community work.

An efficient business should keep overtime to a minimum, but back during the Bus Eireann strike, there was a guy who was saying he was scheduled to work overtime and had been doing so for several months on regular days when none of the above apply, which is simply bad management, since overtime should never be scheduled and ongoing for months at a time, since if it is, it indicates there is a staffing level problem.

I agree in Dublin bus that is 33k however the vast majority work shifts so it would be 38.5k.

That is exactly how overtime is operated in DB there is no contracted or guaranteed overtime.

There is a staffing shortage at the moment as they have not hired new staff for 5 years but I believe they will start again next month.

cdebru · 08-08-2013 05:01AM

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

Wait, are you saying that 38.5k is the minimum a driver earns? Surely not?!

So let me get this straight; after using YOUR figures I said that for a driver to earn 38.5k, that means that the average salary for non-drivers in Dublin Bus is 61K.

So you've given us updated figures which, guess what, still shows the average non-driver in Dublin Bus earns 61K!! :P:P:P

Approx Avg Salary No. Employees Net
CEO 190 1 190
Senior Management 110 9 990
Depo Manager 80 32 2,560
Chief Inspector 80 20 1,600
Inspector 60 150 9,000
"Other staff all paid more than a driver"* 60 867 51,603
Bus Drivers 39 2,157 83,057

Total 3,236 149,000

* Using your figure of only 2/3s of employees are drivers we can infer the number of remaining employees after deducting all the ones you listed. We can do likewise for total pay and average pay.

Way to prove your point!! :pac:

Again 38.5k is the basic salary not the average, an average earnings would include overtime, but that is both voluntary and depends on demand even so average, including overtime would not be 46k as that would be impossible due to the 48 hour maximum working week.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 08-08-2013 05:12AM

How much do the intercity Bus Eireann drivers earn? It seems like a decent job compared to how bus drivers are paid in other countries.

I've always heard that Dart and Iarnrod Eireann train drivers are payed very well also. When I was in school a lot of the boys joined the railway through the family connections and have now worked their way up to drivers.

cdebru · 08-08-2013 05:50AM

JRant wrote: »

I have no idea what a driver earns and frankly don't care. I do know what i earn and how much it costs to use the bus as a means of transport.

If i'm heading into town by myself the bus costs €2:15 e/w, it's only a 10 min trip. If the OH wants to do a shop in town it's €4:30 e/w for the two of us. That's €8:60 to get the bus, so we just jump in the car as parking only costs €2:60 p/hr. Stay there for 3 hours and it's still cheaper than the bus. On nights out if there's 3 or more of us then getting a taxi into town rather than a bus is a no-brainer.

The reason DB are struggling is because they are just too expensive for the shorter trips. Making shorter fares cheaper is the only way to increase numbers using the service.

If we are hit with even more fare increases then the drivers will have a lot more to worry about than overtime rates.

I agree, fares are too high, but when a third of the adult population are given free travel and that is not properly funded, then the fare paying passengers are the ones who pay for it.

cdebru · 08-08-2013 05:58AM

Megatron!! wrote: »

@ cdebru

You (I had to edit this line as you are not worth a ban), I cannot believe the crap you have been spouting on here. I have read every single post from the start of this thread and you are totally deluded. You do nothing but troll the argument that the pay is not this or that and then drip feed figures to others expecting them to post what you clearly know but refuse to share. Why is this, maybe because you know the second you said 38.5 was an average EVERONE will know how bloody greedy you are.

You should be earning 30k and like it. It is not a highly skilled job its driving a bus mate. You do your lessons and get your license. Not like you actually have a degree or anything other than a piece of paper that says you drive a larger than normal vehicle. Did you go to university to become qualified????? No I didnt think so. Do your colleagues a favor and stop posting as when people see the outright cheek of you they will associate it with how DB drivers think. All your doing is turning people who did support against yourselves.

As for most of the above I dont believe every bus driver or even a small fraction have your great social skills:rolleyes:. After the tripe you have posted you should be put in the post room as I wouldnt want you driving my bus with your attitude

Your opinion of me as an anonymous internet poster is irrelevant.

what you don't like is having the nonsense that people were posting here challenged, we started off with people claiming drivers were on 54k when that was pointed out to be nonsense we had the nonsense of 46k.

You obviously prefer to just be able to throw out nonsense and not have it challenged.

Simple fact drivers basic salary is 38.5k that nets to 28k after tax, prsi , usc etc.

Frank Black · 08-08-2013 07:07AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

I don't think the public should so readily discard with the political power of unions (what other public lobby groups have nearly as much political power?), when they are the most powerful way the public can push back against bad economic policy.

You seem to be under the impression that if you keep posting that the DB union is a "public lobby group", you'll somehow make it true.

Let me explain it again for you slowly.

They're not a 'public lobby group'.

They're a private members club solely interested in feather-bedding their members and protecting Celtic Tiger perks at the expense of 'the public', who have to fund these perks and suffer delay and disruptions as a result of their tantrums.

Chattastrophe! · 08-08-2013 07:37AM

cdebru wrote: »

Simple fact drivers basic salary is 38.5k that nets to 28k after tax, prsi , usc etc.

That's quite a bit more than myself and many others are on, after years of education.

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge them their high salaries ... I do, however, begrudge the fact that their strike put myself and so many others out of pocket when we had to find alternative ways to get to work, when the cuts being proposed are fairly trivial.

Striking should have been reserved as an absolute last resort, perhaps if major unjustified job cuts or base pay cuts were being implemented - it's shocking that such action was taken, affecting so many uninvolved people, over the proposed policy changes (which, to me, make perfect sense anyways.)

cdebru · 08-08-2013 07:48AM

Tlachtga wrote: »

That's quite a bit more than myself and many others are on, after years of education.

Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge them their high salaries ... I do, however, begrudge the fact that their strike put myself and so many others out of pocket when we had to find alternative ways to get to work, when the cuts being proposed are fairly trivial.

Striking should have been reserved as an absolute last resort, perhaps if major unjustified job cuts or base pay cuts were being implemented - it's shocking that such action was taken, affecting so many uninvolved people, over the proposed policy changes (which, to me, make perfect sense anyways.)

But who decides what is a legitimate reason to strike ? Only the workers involved can decide that. It might not seem like a good enough reason for you but then it is not your contract.

Frank Black · 08-08-2013 08:13AM

cdebru wrote: »

But who decides what is a legitimate reason to strike ? Only the workers involved can decide that. .

Wrong.
The bus drivers 'decide' whether to strike or not.
But, we're all entitled to 'decide' whether that strike action is warranted or not. Even more so if that strike action impacts on us.

Strikes need public support to succeed, which is why the DB strike was a massive failure.
I expected to see a lot of public support for this strike and was pleasantly surprised how little it got. The only people who beeped their horns in support of the picketers at the Ringsend depot were taxi drivers from what I could see (probably delighted at how much extra custom they were picking up).

I'd imagine those workers got a harsh dose of reality on Tuesday at how their actions were viewed by the vast majority of the general public. I can only imagine the shame and embarrassment they must have felt as people drove past in silence.
There's no way they could have faced another day of that and I don't think you'll see another DB picket for a long, long time.

The real action taken on Tuesday was by the general public. Who got their message across in no uncertain terms. The Celtic Tiger days are long gone. How these guys have managed to hang onto their perks for the last 5 years is astonishing.
It's baby steps, but things are slowly changing.

cdebru · 08-08-2013 08:44AM

Frank Black wrote: »

Wrong.
The bus drivers 'decide' whether to strike or not.
But, we're all entitled to 'decide' whether that strike action is warranted or not. Even more so if that strike action impacts on us.

Strikes need public support to succeed, which is why the DB strike was a massive failure.
I expected to see a lot of public support for this strike and was pleasantly surprised how little it got. The only people who beeped their horns in support of the picketers at the Ringsend depot were taxi drivers from what I could see (probably delighted at how much extra custom they were picking up).

I'd imagine those workers got a harsh dose of reality on Tuesday at how their actions were viewed by the vast majority of the general public. I can only imagine the shame and embarrassment they must have felt as people drove past in silence.
There's no way they could have faced another day of that and I don't think you'll see another DB picket for a long, long time.

The real action taken on Tuesday was by the general public. Who got their message across in no uncertain terms. The Celtic Tiger days are long gone. How these guys have managed to hang onto their perks for the last 5 years is astonishing.
It's baby steps, but things are slowly changing.

Are you trying to convince yourself or other people?

Public support never won any strike, it is nice if it happens but if you are removing what for some is a vital service you would not want to be depending on it.

Strikes are won or lost on numerous factors mainly how united and determined the strikers are. How much pressure they can exert and most importantly is what they are looking for possible.

As to your claim it was a failure time will tell, but what is certain is that it went back before the labour court which would not have happened without the dispute.

Lastly the dispute ended because the labour court predictably intervened, not because not enough people were beeping ffs grow up.

Frank Black · 08-08-2013 09:03AM

cdebru wrote: »

Public support never won any strike, it is nice if it happens but if you are removing want for some is a vital service you would not want to be depending on it..

Name me one strike in the history of industrial relations disputes which has succeeded in the absence of widespread public support.

cdebru wrote: »

Strikes are one or lost on numerous factors mainly how united and determined the strikers are. How much pressure they can exert and most importantly is what they are looking for possible...

Points 1 and 2 are influenced massively by public support or lack thereof, so you're kinda proving my point.

Don't understand what 'possible' has to do with it - Is 'realistic' or 'reasonable' the word you're looking for?

cdebru wrote: »

As to your claim it was a failure time will tell, but what is certain is that it went back before the labour court which would not have happened without the dispute....

Well it had already been before the Labour Court before the dispute - so wow, they'll recommend the same deal with a couple of cosmetic changes to allow a bit of pride salvaging.

cdebru wrote: »

Lastly the dispute ended because the labour court predictably intervened, not because not enough people were beeping ffs grow up .

The dispute ended because the workers realised the strike action wasn't going to work. The labour court invitation merely provides them with a little cloak to cover their shame at slinking away.

KyussBishop · 08-08-2013 09:04AM

Eoin wrote: »

This whole thing is nothing but an employment issue for a small number of workers. It's not for the greater good, nor in the interests of the public. I can't see how that's so hard to admit.

That's because we weren't talking about the bus strike unions, but co-operation between a wider set of unions that are more representative of all workers.

Eoin wrote: »

Bad economic policy leads to lots of things. Bad public service management leads to way too many people employed in many public sector organisations. Will the unions fight for streamlining them for the good of the public? Will the unions argue in favour of reducing the minimum wage to make it more affordable for small businesses to hire people? No - because it's contrary to their purpose.

Unemployment is an employment issue, and any bad economic policy that causes unemployment, falls under 'employment issues' - that makes a lot of political/economic topics fall under 'employment issues' as well.

This is true regardless of what bad unions may support, or conflicts of interest bad unions may have.

KyussBishop · 08-08-2013 09:15AM

Frank Black wrote: »

You seem to be under the impression that if you keep posting that the DB union is a "public lobby group", you'll somehow make it true.

Let me explain it again for you slowly.

They're not a 'public lobby group'.

They're a private members club solely interested in feather-bedding their members and protecting Celtic Tiger perks at the expense of 'the public', who have to fund these perks and suffer delay and disruptions as a result of their tantrums.

Then setup your own unions, and replace the bad ones with better ones - doesn't change the fact, that these unions hold more political power that can be exercised in the publics interest with the right framework of unions co-operating, than the population can do alone.

You have a weak or corrupt set of unions, you have weak political power for the public - you have a widespread/competent set of unions, working together and representing most/nearly-all of the workforce, you have immense public lobbying power.

Frank Black · 08-08-2013 09:30AM

KyussBishop wrote: »

Then setup your own unions, and replace the bad ones with better ones - doesn't change the fact, that these unions hold more political power that can be exercised in the publics interest with the right framework of unions co-operating, than the population can do alone.

You have a weak or corrupt set of unions, you have weak political power for the public - you have a widespread/competent set of unions, working together and representing most/nearly-all of the workforce, you have immense public lobbying power.

Once again, who is this 'public' you keep mentioning which can be represented by Unions?

There are numerous public lobby groups which already exist, from Father's Rights groups to People with disabilites to Travellers rights groups.
The country is littered with public lobby groups which tend to be small by nature because it's not possible to effectivly represent the views of large number of people, because people tend to hold different views and opinions than other people.

You expose yourself as a left wing ideologue with your references to 'the public' (the proletariat is what you actually mean) as if we're a homogenus mass that can be represented by a single lobby group.

Time for you to throw away you Communist manifisto I think.

Do you support the Dublin Bus workers?

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