Why can nobody speak Irish?

Tony EH wrote: »

You've done no such thing.

Ignoring it won't make it go away.

Other than the fact that we are.

Not learning a second language is not proof someone is or would be bad at it, no more than my not playing tennis is proof I would be bad at it if I decided to learn.

Even if we take, alone, the years of having Irish practically beaten into us, along with how "important" it was/is, and yet there are only an extreme minority of people in the country that can speak it speaks volumes. I remember as a kid being constantly told that without Irish, one couldn't "pass" the Leaving cert and still there are a piddling amount of people that can actually use the language in anything other than a few basic words.
In fact, there aren't too many irish people that can claim a second language at all.

So you are ignoring the fact that this is a trait we share with other English speaking countries. Don't you find it odd that English speaking countries are all populated by people who are inherently unable to learn other languages, do you not think this might have something to with the fact that English is such a widespread language?

This is getting silly now because all you are doing is repeating the same thing over and over without actually addressing the points raised that show your idea to be deeply flawed.

Tony EH wrote: »

It's hardly the same thing.

But say tennis was taught to every student from childhood to school leaving age and told how important and essential it was and still, there were only a tiny few that could play it...one could conclude that something was wrong somewhere.



I'm not ignoring anything at all. You just not paying attention. In fact, I clearly stated that our use of English as our primary language is a possible factor. It has made us somewhat lazy in our outlook.



Just because you don't understand, doesn't mean it's silly

How come Irish people who want to learn a language and who put the effort into it can? (this is the most important question).
By what mechanism does this inherent inability travel through the population?
Is the same problem in other English speaking countries caused by the same process?
How long must someone live on the island before this mild retardation manifests itself?
Would it continue if someone left the island, and would it continue through the generations of people living abroad?
Does it stop at the border with NI and is it also in the Unionist population or is it only for people with Gaelic ancestry?
What makes people like me special with our superior ability?

Tony EH wrote: »

I can't say why the Irish haven't been good at learning languages. But observational evidence available suggests that we aren't great masters of such study in general.

Our lack of Irish, despite the language being drumming into us as children for years, being a perfect example. Or, the fact that a lot of us cannot claim any second language at all.

Well, MY lack of Irish stems from having had 11 different Irish teachers from the age of 4 till Leaving Cert, plus the teaching of grammar as opposed to conversation. I changed primary schools twice and the teachers each spoke a different dialect, as was the case in secondary. All started me again with pronunciation, although the grammar was the same. I can still recite all my verbs, but never spoke a sentence without help. My total lack of motivation might have had something to do with it.....as did Peig

As for another language - I learned German in secondary and got on fine with it but, after years of no practice if I attempt to recall any, what comes out is Irish. Verbs, mostly It's a case of early brainwashing, seeing as all I can pull up is "liom, leat, leis, lei, linn, libh, leo", etc.

I'm thinking that the learning by rote system that Irish was taught by (my kids have a better grasp, and are taught in a more conversational manner) is so off putting and so time wasting that it affects learning another language in secondary.

Tony EH wrote: »

Yes, I can, if the practicalities of the matter prove it so. Irish is only the primary langauge of Ireland, in as much as it was spoken before English hundreds of years ago. But today, English is the primary form of communication in Ireland and it has been for quite some time. It doesn't matter what some bozo wrote on a bit of paper. The reality of the situation dictates otherwise.



No, it really doesn't. If a tiny percentage of the nation can speak Irish and mostly badly, but 100% can speak English, then I'll go with the latter. Anything else is just silly.



Of course they wouldn't. Our use of English as our primary form of communication has prevented us from being some backwater state. It has allowed us to communicate with the nations of the world and to trade with whomever we wish. Our use of English was and is essential to our economy and our everyday dealings with the entire planet. Given that, historically, the Irish have been woeful at learning languages, if Irish was our basic form of communication, we would, quite frankly...be fucked.



I think that such a sentiment would meet with complete rejection from the vast majority of people in this country. Sure there is lots to admire about Britain, as there is with all nations, but there is nobody that universially "looks up to the UK".



...and that is why our use of English as our primary language has been so important for us. It has allow us to connect with the people of the world and continues to do so. Put it like this...I'm Irish and from your use of "Na Zdrowie" is an earlier post, I presume you are Polish...

...and yet English has allowed both of us to communicate successfully.



Historically, the Irish have been awful at learning languages. I did French and Irish in school and I don't know much of either. In fact, I've learned more German since leaving school than I have of either of the aforementioned languages. The simple fact is that the Irish have just never been that great at picking up another tongue. It's changing these days, but you'd be barking up the wrong tree, if you think that Irish is what people will be wanting to learn as a second language. It would be much more likely that a European language would be chosen in the future, considering the more outward looking focus that most nations are taking. Learning Irish has no practical use, it would simply be a hobby, or some bogus, fake, nationalistic badge of some sort.



I'd wager that the men who fought the war of independence spoke mostly in English in their everyday dealings

But either way, Irish HAS been taught in schools...for YEARS and still it is very much the minority language in this country. People DON'T care, because it would be, quite simply, a useless accusition to one's knowledge and just because people don't see any practical use for bothering with Irish, doesn't mean that they do "not respect" the nations "past". I just cannot agree with that kind of binary assertion.



Sorry lad, but the above paragraph is absolute nonsense. :pac:

Well then I guess your country should alter your Constitution to saying English is your national primary language. Just because it is convenient for you. It may be practical for use, but Irish is still listed as the national primary language so until that changes Irish should be spoken fluently by all born citizens. I do not know any other nation like this.

I do not think a certain ethnic group can be naturally bad at learning languages. That does not make sense. The Irish have contributed many things to the world outside of alcohol and it is a bad excuse to claim that you are just bad at learning languages. James Joyce was mentioned earlier and he is one of the greatest writers of all time, I would wager that he could learn multiple languages at ease.

You say that your nation would be fcuked if you did not speak English as your first language. THIS IS THE REASON WHY YOU WILL BECOME PART OF THE UK. You are too dependent on their culture. If it benefits America and the UK (strong allies), and Ireland is in a hole one day the agreement will happen it is inevitable. You just said you would be screwed if you did know English for practicality and business so your reliance on English is overwhelming. Plus, that logic does not work because then you are saying that pretty much every other nation who does not have English as their primary language is fcuked. So you are basically saying that all off Europe is fcuked because English is not their first language. But yet most Europeans countries have a very high standard of living. And that all nations with English as their first language are not fcuked. Norway is among the best in standard of living and English is not their first language, and much better than Belize whose first language is English. So you would not be fcuked if you had Irish as your first language, but yes you would also have to know English but this would not be an issue for Ireland because you are a rich nation. I guess the problem stems from the schooling system as others have said, but if it could rehabilitated (which you could afford) then it is most definitely possible.

They may have spoken English, but the point I was getting at was that they cared about preserving their culture and nation. I think you have lost a bit of your nationalistic pride, which is fine if you are fine with it but I am just pointing out a common observation.

I am not saying it is practical at the moment. What I am saying is that it could be reintroduced as the primary language and there would be no effect on your standard of living. If everyone knew Irish and English then they could use Irish in Ireland and English abroad. Like most other nations, it is this simple.

Do you know while colonizers throughout history removed religion and language from the domestic people when they came? Because those are those 2 things that people connect with in their respective lands. This is proven through social sciences. This is why South America speaks mostly Spanish and is Catholic because of the Spanish, and Australia, New Zealand, USA, Belize, etc. speak English. Brazil speaks Portuguese and is Catholic because of Portugal, and the list goes on and on. They did this because once you take someones language away they lose a major part of their identity. It may not seem important because you grew up with English as your first language, but over time Irish will die throughout the nation. We both know this. This is another reason why I think going to part of the UK is inevitable, it may not be for a long time but I think it will happen I know it sounds crazy today though.

BognarRegis wrote: »

Conradh's main aim is for just one common language - Irish. Their use of the word 'Restore' indicates tht they want to bring us back to a past situation where Irish was the common language in this country. How far back they want to bring us, I don't know.

So you withdraw your claim that there can only be one common language?

You are basing claims on the organisation on the word choice in a translation of their mision statement. This is a fairly week argument to me, perhaps if you could show statements they have made or actions they have taken to push Irish as a sole common language outside of their mission statement it would be a more substantial argument.

LordSutch wrote: »

Add to that^ most Irish people seem to show an apathy towards the Irish language (before, during, and after) they leave school. "Irish" is almost like a dormant gene that needs a radical solution to 'reinvigorate' the graw for the old language. Every initiative over the last eight decades since independance has failed miserably, & the only idea that hasn't been tried (Enda's idea) is always shot down in flames every time its talked about :cool:

Surely it was tried between the establishment of the school system and 1924?

Crea wrote: »

How about the intiative of having no Irish schoolbooks until 4th class but the teachers speak Irish to the children all the time outside of specific lessons. So class instructions and conversations are in Irish but maths, history, geograpy etc are done through English. Kind of like a half gaelscoil. I can tell you that this would significantly improve the level of Irish of the average student.

Interesting idea, but it would have to be properly implemented across all schools in a fun and imaginative way, that would bring on board children & parents alike! I hate the current farcical situation wherby 1000s of school hours are totally wasted from Primary school right through to leaving cert, and what do most of us have to show for it? Cupla bloody Focall.

Children should either soak up an interesting and fun language through speech, or the pressure should be taken off the failed mandatory curriculum to see how the language finds its natural level in Irish society, therby making it attractive by choice . . .

psinno wrote: »

Makes sense. Austria is part of Germany after all.

Of course it will not make sense to you. I am telling you that your nation will be conglomerated into the UK. Most people who are not in tune with Western Europe already think this has happened, and do not know the differences of the island of Ireland. Not that global perception matters, but if the Rep. of Ireland was added to the UK it would not make that much of a difference to political affairs but instead it would just be part of it like Scotland and Wales and eventually smoothed out. Now, we see people calling Andy Murray mistakenly English even though he is Scottish because it is all the same to most people. I feel as though it is inevitable because one day Ireland will be of need and the UK will gladly accept additional resources. The timeline is of question of course.

Language and religion my friend, you did a great job of keeping religion but the language has all but left. By the time it occurs religious attitudes will be far more tolerant though and it will not be an issue.

BognarRegis wrote: »

Not at all, in all practicality we all should speak the same language, it's a small country and we do need to live and work together.

So you believe that it is not possible for there to be more than one common language amongst a group of people?
You do realise that there are many examples of this in the world?

It's not as if it was an amateur site put up by some secondary students. It's the web site of a major national lobby group with a long and eventful history that includes many prominent literate and well educated people.

Nothing could be stronger than examining their own mission statement, given freely by themselves. It's their own translation, they've put it up on their web site and they've had over 100 years to get the translation right. Surely they would not make a fundamental mistake in stating what their main aim was?

I know, but it is hardly a fundemental error, a minor semantic one really.
Anyway, is there any actions that they have taken that would support your argument? Its one thing to have not updated your mission statement in 120 years, quite another to have not updated how the organisation actually opperates.

Have they been known to argue against Ireland becoming bilingual or indeed taken actions that would intentionally work against this?