Why can nobody speak Irish?

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 06-08-2013 12:05PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

As for the Tir gan teanga...' thing, that is just a piece of empty rhetoric. There is no evidence that it is true.

In fairness, it would have been part of the ideology of 20th Century nationalists that the purpose of the separate Irish State was to give us space to be Irish-speaking, Catholic rural-dwellers.

Now, clearly that all predates EU membership. If the EU is giving us most of our laws, you can ask what the point of having an independent State is. Maybe we don't have any ambition that requires an independent State.

And, sure, don't Irish language enthusiasts do pretty well in the UK?

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 07:28PM

Grayson wrote: »

Plus if we use your argument, it doesn't matter what language we speak just so long as it's different. The irish language itself would hold no value, just the fact that it's different.

Wrong. The point is that what Ireland is as a nation, who the Irish are as a people, the history, literature, folklore, the Identity of Ireland was created largely through the Irish language. That is why the language contains the soul and identity of the nation. Replacing Irish with English or any other language means that this soul is lost. Another may well develop over time, but it will be more English than Irish.

And considering nua-ghaeilge was pretty much conceived in the early 1900's as a language that english speakers could learn. The language has very tenuous ties to the language spoken by the irish 300 years ago or even earlier. We completely ditched the alphabet for a start. The language we learned in school is not the language of the culture you're espousing.

I love how people who cant speak Irish presume to talk about it as if they are an authority (or anything less than ignorent) on the language.

Put simply, what you have said here is false.

Aineoil · 06-08-2013 07:51PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Maith agat a mhic.

Is bean mise! agoa (ag gáire ós árd).

riclad · 06-08-2013 08:22PM

THE irish speak english in a special way ,
theres alot of irish slang.
its part of our culture too.
And ITS great if you speak it, and grew up speaking it outside school.
LIKE some people play hurling etc or playing the fiddle,or do irish dancing .
There,s Some great irish poets ,writers , playrights who mainly write in english.

English is spoken ,and taught in many country,s as an international language.

LET it be voluntary after 1st year in secondary school,
and let kids choose 5 subjects for the leaving .
i reckon most students would choose subjects that have some practical use after they leave school.
Maybe related to their chosen career or university course.

I judge people by their behavior ,not just by the fact they can speak
irish well.

it does not make you a saint or a better irish person than the next man .
eg Some bankers who committed fraud and retired with 80k pensions ,and destroyed the economy were probably good irish speakers .
Speaking irish by itself is not a good indicator of decency or morality.

FOR many people teachers ,broadcasters , speaking irish is part of your job,
like a mechanic needs to know about fixing car engines .
ie they are getting paid for it.

that would be a good comedy show,
do a sketch, go to the bank ,shops etc try and do all your business for 1 day in irish .

90 per cent of people who say, outside the gaeltacht,
I can,t help you ,
i only speak english.

BognarRegis · 06-08-2013 10:34PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Wrong. The point is that what Ireland is as a nation, who the Irish are as a people, the history, literature, folklore, the Identity of Ireland was created largely through the Irish language. That is why the language contains the soul and identity of the nation. Replacing Irish with English or any other language means that this soul is lost. Another may well develop over time, but it will be more English than Irish.

You've got it inside out. Language is just a tool of society, discarded when it is no longer fit for purpose.

If what you say is true, then those who wish to restore Irish as common language of Ireland, by forcing every child to learn Irish also wish to change current Irish culture and society.

The question that must be put is: why do this?

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 10:41PM

Aineoil wrote: »

Is bean mise! agoa (ag gáire ós árd).

Fíor brón orm a bhean uasal.

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 10:46PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

You've got it inside out. Language is just a tool of society, discarded when it is no longer fit for purpose.

I strongly disagree.

If what you say is true, then those who wish to restore Irish as common language of Ireland, by forcing every child to learn Irish also wish to change current Irish culture and society.

The question that must be put is: why do this?

Not necessarily, if the goal was to rid the country of English then this may indeed be the outcome, but I know of no one who actually aims for that.

Tony EH · 06-08-2013 10:52PM

What is the goal then?

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 10:56PM

Tony EH wrote: »

What is the goal then?

Get more people speaking Irish generally. Did you actually think people aimed to get rid of English? There is such a thing as bilingualism, when you learn a new language it does'nt push the old one out of your head.

epluribusunum · 06-08-2013 11:08PM

Generally, the vast majority only know English, have a mediocre sense of global geography and political affairs, and are addicted to UK and American cultures. They have lost their identity really. They mine as well become part of the UK at this point if you think about it. Plus, most do not even know a second language at all and out of all of the second languages sought Irish is at the end. I also find it strange that the domestic language has a negative connotation, only place I know that is like this. I mean most other nations know their language plus English but I guess they would rather just learn one. So I guess it is out of convenience and perhaps a lack of nationalism as well.

Na Zdrowie!

BognarRegis · 06-08-2013 11:10PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Not necessarily, if the goal was to rid the country of English then this may indeed be the outcome, but I know of no one who actually aims for that.

You might not know anyone of that mind, but there is an organisation called Conradh na Gaeilge which has the Restoration of Irish as Common Tongue of Ireland as its main aim.

Have you ever heard of them? They were once known as the Gaelic League and were behind the Gaelic Revival and had many high-profile historical figures as members.

Tony EH · 06-08-2013 11:12PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Get more people speaking Irish generally. Did you actually think people aimed to get rid of English? There is such a thing as bilingualism, when you learn a new language it does'nt push the old one out of your head.

No, I obviously didn't. Such an endeavour would fail miserably.

But then again, forcing people to learn it has failed miserably too.

Tony EH · 06-08-2013 11:18PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

Generally, the vast majority only know English, have a mediocre sense of global geography and political affairs, and are addicted to UK and American cultures. They have lost their identity really. They mine as well become part of the UK at this point if you think about it. Plus, most do not even know a second language at all and out of all of the second languages sought Irish is at the end. I also find it strange that the domestic language has a negative connotation, only place I know that is like this. I mean most other nations know their language plus English but I guess they would rather just learn one. So I guess it is out of convenience and perhaps a lack of nationalism as well.

Na Zdrowie!

But, this is the point...a lot of other nations learn English to be able to converse with people outside their own nation.

The primary language of Ireland, however, is English. Learning Irish therefore constitutes nothing more than an interesting hobby for the few. It has absolutely no communicative value, except among an extreme minority.

One would simply be better off learning French, German or Spanish.

PopePalpatine · 06-08-2013 11:21PM

Here's a question for An Coilean: would you consider the works of Joyce, Beckett, Yeats etc. as inferior in "Irishness" to any Irish language literature?

Hell, Joyce could have written Ulysses in Chinese without changing anything else about the book, and it'd still be Irish to me.

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 11:22PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

You might not know anyone of that mind, but there is an organisation called Conradh na Gaeilge which has the Restoration of Irish as Common Tongue of Ireland as its main aim.

Have you ever heard of them? They were once known as the Gaelic League and were behind the Gaelic Revival and had many high-profile historical figures as members.

Aha.

Yes I am well aware of them, are you suggesting that restoring Irish and getting rid or English are one and the same objectives?

Welcome back by the way.

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 11:25PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Here's a question for An Coilean: would you consider the works of Joyce, Beckett, Yeats etc. as inferior in "Irishness" to any Irish language literature?

Hell, Joyce could have written Ulysses in Chinese without changing anything else about the book, and it'd still be Irish to me.

Not having read them all, I could not possibly pass judgement on them.
But just so you know, I dont tend to spend much time worrying about how Irish thing are, I'm an Irish speaker not an Irish evaluater;)

Tony EH · 06-08-2013 11:26PM

BTW, what does "An Coilean" mean?

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 11:27PM

Tony EH wrote: »

BTW, what does "An Coilean" mean?

The pup/cub

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-08-2013 11:32PM

OK, going to pull you up on a few things here:

An Coilean wrote: »

Wrong. The point is that what Ireland is as a nation, who the Irish are as a people, the history, literature, folklore, the Identity of Ireland was created largely through the Irish language. That is why the language contains the soul and identity of the nation. Replacing Irish with English or any other language means that this soul is lost. Another may well develop over time, but it will be more English than Irish.

I have pointed out twice now that langauge is not the be-all and end-all. I gave you the name of an Irish visual artist: did you even look at his work? I also made the point that visual art transcends written/spoken langauge. I'd see it as far more expressive AND universal for that reason.

You do NOT need a LANGUAGE to express your IDENTITY or your NATIONALITY. It can be described as a useful but not essential tool, but nothing more.

An Coilean wrote: »

Get more people speaking Irish generally. Did you actually think people aimed to get rid of English? There is such a thing as bilingualism, when you learn a new language it does'nt push the old one out of your head.

In that case, can you tell me how the below - which ws posted by you earlier in this thread - is supposed to achieve this?

An Coilean wrote: »

Perhaps the Irish language movement should try to emulate the Welsh language movement, ie mass protests, civil disobediance, vandalism of public and private property, destruction of monolingual signage, wrecking the offices of politicians who fail to toe the line, hunger strikes and breaking the law to attract media attention to ongoing campaigns.

The Welsh Language movement have done all of that and more, many members have served multiple Jail terms and regard their time in prison as a badge of honor, perhaps the Irish language movement needs to become more militant, it seems to be working for Welsh.

riclad · 06-08-2013 11:37PM

WE have irish sport ,gaa, traditional music, song, poetry etc
WE are not just a province of the uk.
OF course there,s young people that just watch american tv, and listen to american pop music.

WE are an open society.
WE can still have a vibrant irish culture , even if only 1 per cent speak irish.
WE will have irish artists, writers and musicians anyway ,
whether they use the english or irish language is their choice.

I would not look down on beckett ,or yeats just because they wrote
in english.

WE have an economy in crisis,
its simply crazy to force every student to spend 5 plus years
learning irish in school.
ITS a waste of money.
IF i was a cynic i,d say theres many people out there who can hardly
speak english,
never mind speak irish.
ie they have a limited vocabulary .

epluribusunum · 06-08-2013 11:40PM

Tony EH wrote: »

But, this is the point...a lot of other nations learn English to be able to converse with people outside their own nation.

The primary language of Ireland, however, is English. Learning Irish therefore constitutes nothing more than an interesting hobby for the few. It has absolutely no communicative value, except among an extreme minority.

One would simply be better off learning French, German or Spanish.

According to your Constitution Irish is the primary national language. But English is the mostly widely used statistically.

Yes, most other European nations know their own language + English. So most would expect the Irish to know Irish + English, and not just English. I really do not care, but from an outsider perspective it seems as though Irish should be used throughout Ireland, and they should also learn English for the importance of it. Instead, their national language is more or less dead and unwanted, and most of Ireland speaks only English. I think most would say that you mine as well become British at that time. Language is the main part of a nation and its culture. I do not think Irish will ever come back, but I do think Ireland will become part of the UK. There is no longer an identity and as that continues over the decades or even less it will lead you to become British in my opinion. Which is not a bad thing I guess for some people.

How important is Polish outside of Poland? Not really at all if you know it. It does not lead to a high paycheck or a great life by simply knowing it, but it is part of a nation and its culture. And it is still taught just like the rest of Europe where their language is not often used outside of their demarcations.

An Coilean · 06-08-2013 11:49PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

OK, going to pull you up on a few things here:

I have pointed out twice now that langauge is not the be-all and end-all. I gave you the name of an Irish visual artist: did you even look at his work? I also made the point that visual art transcends written/spoken langauge. I'd see it as far more expressive AND universal for that reason.

You do NOT need a LANGUAGE to express your IDENTITY or your NATIONALITY. It can be described as a useful but not essential tool, but nothing more.

I did and it was quite interesting, but it does not take away from the fact that language is one of the fundementals of being a human being, Identity and Nationality cannot be expressed without language, it is fundemental to what we are as a race(Human Race).

Language is the essential tool of life, it being limited in any way is a major impediment, not having it is of such dire impact as to fundementally alter your perception of life and make it esentially impossibe to function in society.
Note that I am talking specifically about language, not about having Irish or not. The point is that language is one of the most vital part of who anyone is, try for an instant to think of what you would be without it.

Language is of fundemental importance, what language we speak, how we communicate and who we communicate with is also of fundemental importance to our identity.
The close connection between language and identity is widely recognised the world over. It seems to me that the reason you are trying to deminish this connection between language and Identity, and stress other aspects of identity is that it does not sit well with your desire to maintain a perception of Irish as an Identity without the language.
Ie, you are deminishing the connection because it is convienient to your chosen viewpoint to do so.

In that case, can you tell me how the below - which ws posted by you earlier in this thread - is supposed to achieve this?

I was responding to a post that was suggesting that perhaps the Irish are just not interested in the Irish language, and using the comparative success of the Welsh language movement as a suggestion of this, the Idea being that one of the reasons that they are having more success than us is that the general Welsh population just care more about their language than we do.

My post was ment to highlight the difference of methods used as a possible counter explanation to the difference in success enjoyed.

shruikan2553 · 06-08-2013 11:51PM

I dont understand how having a different language gives a country a "soul". Do the counties each need a different language for a soul too?
You say tamayto and I say tomato but it doesnt change the object. It is still the same no matter what you call it. Music, books and sport dont change with another language. Culture changes over time, we no longer paint on cave walls and we have begun adapting aspects of other cultures with technology making the world smaller and smaller. Maybe you need to feel like a special snowflake with your own culture that nobody else can have but I dont mind if everyone belongs to one community where we take aspects of everyones culture and are each individually unique choosing which parts to follow ourselves instead of blindly following GAA or speaking Irish but because you were born on a certain rock.

riclad · 06-08-2013 11:59PM

IF you look at irish writers, musicians ,poets , music,
for such a small country we have a big influence on world culture.
ITS not as if we just take in anglo/ american culture and send nothing back .
Most people could not afford to go to gaelscoil ,
they send their kids to the local school ,whichever is nearest to them.

ITS easy for someone from the gaeltacht to say everyone should be able to speak irish ,all the time.
ITS a dead language, because most ordinary people do not speak it.

ITS like fashion,
most women no longer wear woolen shawls ,most men do not wear trilby or bowler hats anymore .
speaking irish is gone, as regards being used in everday life ,at least
Outside the gaeltacht.

I have no interest in watching gaa, football ,or hurling ,
DOES that mean i,m not fully irish ?
I don,t think so.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-08-2013 12:04AM

An Coilean wrote: »

I did and it was quite interesting, but it does not take away from the fact that language is one of the fundementals of being a human being, Identity and Nationality cannot be expressed without language, it is fundemental to what we are as a race(Human Race).

Language is the essential tool of life, it being limited in any way is a major impediment, not having it is of such dire impact as to fundementally alter your perception of life and make it esentially impossibe to function in society.
Note that I am talking specifically about language, not about having Irish or not. The point is that language is one of the most vital part of who anyone is, try for an instant to think of what you would be without it.

Language is of fundemental importance, what language we speak, how we communicate and who we communicate with is also of fundemental importance to our identity.

The close connection between language and identity is widely recognised the world over. It seems to me that the reason you are trying to deminish this connection between language and Identity, and stress other aspects of identity is that it does not sit well with your desire to maintain a perception of Irish as an Identity without the language.
Ie, you are deminishing the connection because it is convienient to your chosen viewpoint to do so.

I was responding to a post that was suggesting that perhaps the Irish are just not interested in the Irish language, and using the comparative success of the Welsh language movement as a suggestion of this, the Idea being that one of the reasons that they are having more success than us is that the general Welsh population just care more about their language than we do.

My post was ment to highlight the difference of methods used as a possible counter explanation to the difference in success enjoyed.

1 - We need to sperate the practical and cultral implications of lnaguage here.
Practically - yes we need a langauge. It is an essential tool of life, as you say - but to communicate, and that is all.
Cultrually - no, it most certainly is not "of funtamentl importance". Visual art is just as important and requires no language.

2 - I am not tryign to demnish the connection, you are trying to hype it up. What i am trying to do is keep things in perspective. I'm trying - and have succeded in doign so - is to point out that there are EQUALLY VALUABLE ways of expressing a cultrual identity. Equally - not better, not worse. Equally.

3 - Entirely possible that the Irish are not as interested. But militant action and hunger strikes is hardly going to make them care more, is it?

Tony EH · 07-08-2013 12:09AM

epluribusunum wrote: »

According to your Constitution Irish is the primary national language.

Only by artificial means. The actual wording in the consistution on the matter is bull****. The primary national language is English, both in theory and practice.

epluribusunum wrote: »

Yes, most other European nations know their own language + English. So most would expect the Irish to know Irish + English, and not just English.

Why? Given the history of the nation.

epluribusunum wrote: »

Language is the main part of a nation and its culture.

I disagree, I think the history of the country is the main aspect of a nation and its culture.

epluribusunum wrote: »

I do not think Irish will ever come back

Neither do I, beacuase the majority of the people do not want it.

epluribusunum wrote: »

...but I do think Ireland will become part of the UK.

No offence, but that's madness.

epluribusunum wrote: »

How important is Polish outside of Poland?

Is wouldn't be, other than communicating with other Poles. That's where your English comes in handy.

However, As English is our primary language for communicating domestically, learning Irish is both pointless for such at home and abroad.

As I said, we'd be better off learning French, German or Spanish.

An Coilean · 07-08-2013 12:28AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

1 - We need to sperate the practical and cultral implications of lnaguage here.
Practically - yes we need a langauge. It is an essential tool of life, as you say - but to communicate, and that is all.
Cultrually - no, it most certainly is not "of funtamentl importance". Visual art is just as important and requires no language.

I dont think we do, life is not so easy to compartmentalise. If I discuss love, politics etc. Is that practical or cultural communication? What if I do so through poetry or debate or just over a few pints in the pub?

Language certainly is of fundemental importance to culture. I am not arguing that it is the only means through which culture can be expressed, but it is certainly the primary means. It is inconcivable that any nation or individual could have an identity not primarily founded upon and communicated through language.

2 - I am not tryign to demnish the connection, you are trying to hype it up. What i am trying to do is keep things in perspective. I'm trying - and have succeded in doign so - is to point out that there are EQUALLY VALUABLE ways of expressing a cultrual identity. Equally - not better, not worse. Equally.

Again, there are other valid ways of expressing culture and Identity, i never argued otherwise, however that does not mean that language is not fundemental to culture and Identity.
Again this link between language and identity is widely recognised and that you are trying so hard to minimise its suggests to me that you see it as a threat to an 'Irish identity without Irish'.

Entirely possible that the Irish are not as interested. But militant action and hunger strikes is hardly going to make them care more, is it?

Worked for the Welsh, their language was in rapid decline before the started their campaign of positive action.

Carlos Orange · 07-08-2013 12:38AM

An Coilean wrote: »

Worked for the Welsh, their language was in rapid decline before the started their campaign of positive action.

Some Irish people hold a dim view of political violence.

epluribusunum · 07-08-2013 12:40AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Only by artificial means. The actual wording in the consistution on the matter is bull****. The primary national language is English, both in theory and practice.

Why? Given the history of the nation.

I disagree, I think the history of the country is the main aspect of a nation and its culture.

Neither do I, beacuase the majority of the people do not want it.

No offence, but that's madness.

Is wouldn't be, other than communicating with other Poles. That's where your English comes in handy.

However, As English is our primary language for communicating domestically, learning Irish is both pointless for such at home and abroad.

As I said, we'd be better off learning French, German or Spanish.

You cannot just call you Constitution wording artificial because you disagree with it. If it says Irish is the primary national language then it is. It may not match your argument but it is a fact of the matter. It is clearly stated.

If history was such a big role then most people would reject English, given the history as you said. But instead people now look up to the UK. Communication is how people identify and connect, and it always will be so that is why language is imperative.

Currently, Irish is pointless but it does not have to be that way. Are you incapable of knowing 2 languages? Why not have your language from your Constitution and respect your past patriots and then teach English in school as well. The possibility is there but people dont seem to care. i have studied Irish independence and it is a shame to see a nation not respect its past. Not just the language aspect either.

The Irish worship the UK culture. The coverage of the royal family was enough right there. It will make sense for both parties. It is only a matter of time. A nation of 4 million with the same language, close proximity, very similar cultural and family ties, it is only a matter of time my friend. Maybe not in our lifetime but it is inevitable.

An Coilean · 07-08-2013 12:40AM

psinno wrote: »

Some Irish people hold a dim view of political violence.

As i said before, its more on the vandalism side of the spectrum than violence, they spraypaint walls rather than going around kneekapping non Welsh speakers.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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