Why can nobody speak Irish?

Aineoil · 05-08-2013 09:08PM

Grayson, on that we can agree, I don't like the Donegal accent either.
Princess, I agree with you too. Irish will never be the mother tongue of Ireland. Because we all are fluent in English. But there are a few of us that use Irish daily.......and we are far and few between.

Bognar
Wanting people to "see the light". I couldn't care less whether you saw the light or not. If you speak Irish, fine....if you don't then I will talk to you in English. I don't have an agenda. Language is for communication.....not to make a point. If I spoke to my nieces in English, the parents would be annoyed with me, because their children only speak Irish.

Back to Grayson,
You make an excellent point on the music thing. Languages for me about the melody and then the words. I like to hear the melody of the language first...then I learn the words.

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 09:14PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Now, you see, there's the problem. If I have misunderstood you,how about pointing out the mistake instead of preferring to get in some wiseass comment...? I'm human, I make mistakes, I accept it. But when you decide that your main aim is to get a quip in, then you're just going to look immatre and in need of some form of self-validation rather then adult debate.

Sorry. It's just this thread is full of "Oh so you are saying this" or "you said that" when people are saying nothing of the sort, it is mind-numbingly tedious to try and have a discussion like that, and the result is frustration.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 09:15PM

Grayson wrote: »

Should a language determine who you are? I'd like to think that whatever language I spoke I'd still be the same person. For example, I don't think I'd grow any less compassionate because I spoke German.

Language can shape certain preconceptions. I've done work on the concepts of the meaning of time and how the language has changed as we've changed our opinions, and occasionally how we develop those ideas based on the language used. But the language is a reflection of the prevailing ideas. Someone nowadays who learns about Time in irish will have the same ideas imparted as they would have in english because they are the prevailing thoughts in western europe.

Basically I'm saying for example that if you were a child in a house full of racists, you have a pretty good chance of growing up with racist attitudes. I don't think that it matters whether your parents impart those opinions in irish/english/german/etc... that won't make you more or less racist. We are who we are based on numerous things but language isn't one of them.

The languages you grow up with and speak have a significant impact on who you are, the way of saying things, the folklore and literature contained in that language will all form how you percieve the world.

I grew up with English and that has had a significant influence on me, I am now exploring the Irish language and that is having its effect on how I percieve the world too.

'Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam' is not a meaningless soundbyte used to make people feel guilty. Its a sentiment that can be found in many languages that goes back centuries, each language is a unique medium through which our perception of the world around us is moulded.

Aineoil · 05-08-2013 09:20PM

A Choileaín,
Aontaím leat! Is cuma liomsa cén teanga a labhraíonn aon duine. Cosúil leatsa níl m'aitheantas mar caitheamh aimsire domsa, ach an amhlaidh.

Rubeter · 05-08-2013 09:22PM

An Coilean wrote: »

The languages you grow up with and speak have a significant impact on who you are, the way of saying things, the folklore and literature contained in that language will all form how you percieve the world.

Also because people can only converse properly with others who speak the same language/s it a very big part of your identity.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 09:23PM

Aineoil wrote: »

A Choileaín,
Aontaím leat! Is cuma liomsa cén teanga a labhraíonn aon duine. Cosúil leatsa níl m'aitheantas mar caitheamh aimsire domsa, ach an amhlaidh.

Maith agat a mhic.

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 09:27PM

An Coilean wrote: »

'Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam'

I despise that proverb. It implies Brazil, the US, Austria and Switzerland have no soul.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 09:33PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I despise that proverb. It implies Brazil, the US, Austria and Switzerland have no soul.

I dont think so. Brazil speaks Brazillian Portugese,and always has, as such the soul of the nation is in that language, if they stopped speaking Brazillian Portugeseand started speaking Chinease instead, the soul of the nation would be lost and they would no longer be truely Brazillian.

Without the Irish language, Ireland will have lost part of its soul and will no longer be able to call itself truely Irish.

As they say, the English government never committed a useless crime, there is a reason it was official English policy to kill the Irish language for so many years.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 09:40PM

An Coilean wrote: »

I dont think so. Brazil speaks Brazillian Portugese,and always has, as such the soul of the nation is in that language, if they stopped speaking Brazillian Portugeseand started speaking Chinease instead, the soul of the nation would be lost and they would no longer be truely Brazillian.

Without the Irish language, Ireland will have lost part of its soul and will no longer be able to call itself truely Irish.

As they say, the English government never committed a useless crime, there is a reason it was official English policy to kill the Irish language for so many years.

What about the other countries on the list? We are very different to Britain, with or without the Irish langauge and most people will notice that.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 09:43PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What about the other countries on the list? We are very different to Britain, with or without the Irish langauge and most people will notice that.

Ar we? It seems to me that we are a cheap facsimile of Anglo/American Culture and growing more so every day.

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 09:49PM

An Coilean wrote: »

I dont think so. Brazil speaks Brazillian Portugese,and always has, as such the soul of the nation is in that language, if they stopped speaking Brazillian Portugeseand started speaking Chinease instead, the soul of the nation would be lost and they would no longer be truely Brazillian.

Brazilian Portuguese is not a language. Brazil does not have its own language but I think we can both agree it has soul. As does Switzerland, Austria, Australia and many other examples.

Without the Irish language, Ireland will have lost part of its soul and will no longer be able to call itself truely Irish.

That's not true. Ireland is Ireland with or without the Irish language. We should be self assured enough in our own national identity that we don't evaluate it by how English we are.

As they say, the English government never committed a useless crime, there is a reason it was official English policy to kill the Irish language for so many years.

Imagine using the apparatus of the state to forcefully educate children in another language. Those bastards!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 09:57PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Ar we? It seems to me that we are a cheap facsimile of Anglo/American Culture and growing more so every day.

We are.

The probelm here is that you see the langauge as a be-all and end-all, cimpletely dismissing all other forms of Irish culture. We have a plethora of literature, theater, cimema, music, dance, art, personality, lifestyle, even food and drink, that is unique to this country, but you seem to dismiss it all simply because it's either not as important as the langauge in your eyes or because you're scared that it will downgrade it in some way.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 10:00PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Brazilian Portuguese is not a language. Brazil does not have its own language but I think we can both agree it has soul. As does Switzerland, Austria, Australia and many other examples.

So you refuse to consider the idea that you dont have to have your own unique language for the soul of your nation to be contained in the language spoken by that people since the concept of them being a nation was established?

That's not true. Ireland is Ireland with or without the Irish language.

I disagree.

Imagine using the apparatus of the state to forcefully educate children in another language. Those bastards!

Not to mention hanging, disenfranchising, and generally treating as second class citizens, if citizens at all, people who could not speak the language. Bastards indeed.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 10:06PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

We are.

The probelm here is that you see the langauge as a be-all and end-all, cimpletely dismissing all other forms of Irish culture. We have a plethora of literature, theater, cimema, music, dance, art, personality, lifestyle, even food and drink, that is unique to this country, but you seem to dismiss it all simply because it's either not as important as the langauge in your eyes or because you're scared that it will downgrade it in some way.

I am not dismissing them on account of the language, I am dismissing them, or at least much of it because as I said, it seems to me to be a cheap facsimile of Anglo/American culture rather than anything that could be described as unique to this country or indeed worthwhile on its own merit.
The Irish language is, some of the store of works from the Anglo-Irish tradition is, but much of what passes for culture in Ireland today is nothing more than the inept aping of what has already been done and done better elsewhere.

Capercaille · 05-08-2013 10:08PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What about the other countries on the list? We are very different to Britain, with or without the Irish langauge and most people will notice that.

If I'm out foreign (non-english speaking Country) and speaking english almost all people will think I'm a Brit. If I'm speaking Irish they don't. Granted they wouldn't know what nationality I am when I'm spaeaking as Gaeilge.

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 10:12PM

An Coilean wrote: »

So you refuse to consider the idea that you dont have to have your own unique language for the soul of your nation to be contained in the language spoken by that people since the concept of them being a nation was established?

Now you're shifting the goal posts. You said "a country without a language is a country without a soul." Now I've proved that wrong you're trying to say "the country without the language it originally spoke when it was conceived as a nation is a country without a soul." Which is very different from your original position.

I disagree.

Be confident in your national identity. Don't evaluate it by how not English you are.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 10:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Now you're shifting the goal posts. You said "a country without a language is a country without a soul." Now I've proved that wrong you're trying to say "the country without the language it originally spoke when it was conceived as a nation is a country without a soul." Which is very different from your original position.

Indeed, I could have coined a new phrase and said something like 'a country that looses its language(Though not necessarly its own unique language) and replaces it with another language looses its soul'. But I thought I would be a traditionalist and go with the established phrase.
Lets not forget that the phrase was formulated before Brazil existed and possibly before the new world was even discovered.
And of course there was the habit at the time among Irish people to simply identify peoples by the language they spoke. Ie they did not tend to recognise this or that different kingdom, but rather just the people who shared the same language.

Be confident in your national identity. Don't evaluate it by how not English you are.

Where did I say that I evaluate my identity by how English or not I am? I said that Ireland without the language that was spoken by the people throughout the thousands of years that we came to consiousness of ourselves as a people, through which our culture and identity developed for so long, is no longer Irish. You may call it Irish, but you could also call a cat a Flamingo, that does not make it so.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 10:26PM

An Coilean wrote: »

I am not dismissing them on account of the language, I am dismissing them, or at least much of it because as I said, it seems to me to be a cheap facsimile of Anglo/American culture rather than anything that could be described as unique to this country or indeed worthwhile on its own merit.
The Irish language is, some of the store of works from the Anglo-Irish tradition is, but much of what passes for culture in Ireland today is nothing more than the inept aping of what has already been done and done better elsewhere.

Are you fmailiar with the art of Jim Fitzpatrick?

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 10:29PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Are you fmailiar with the art of Jim Fitzpatrick?

Are you familiar with Tallafornia?

Iwasfrozen · 05-08-2013 10:35PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Indeed, I could have coined a new phrase and said something like 'a country that looses its language(Though not necessarly its own unique language) and replaces it with another language looses its soul'. But I thought I would be a traditionalist and go with the established phrase.
Lets not forget that the phrase was formulated before Brazil existed and possibly before the new world was even discovered.
And of course there was the habit at the time among Irish people to simply identify peoples by the language they spoke. Ie they did not tend to recognise this or that different kingdom, but rather just the people who shared the same language.

My goal was to disprove that horrid proverb. I've succeeded in my goal.

Where did I say that I evaluate my identity by how English or not I am? I said that Ireland without the language that was spoken by the people throughout the thousands of years that we came to consiousness of ourselves as a people, through which our culture and identity developed for so long, is no longer Irish. You may call it Irish, but you could also call a cat a Flamingo, that does not make it so.

You seemingly do since you lament how Anglo American we have become. But why is that even a bad thing? What's wrong with being culturally and socially anglophone?

Stop evaluating your national identity by how different you are to everyone else ( in particular perfidious Albion).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 05-08-2013 10:37PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Are you familiar with Tallafornia?

Can not say that I am, so you'll have to tell me what it is, how it connects to the artist I mentioned and how it disproves my initial point.

An Coilean · 05-08-2013 10:47PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You seemingly do since you lament how Anglo American we have become. But why is that even a bad thing? What's wrong with being culturally and socially anglophone?

Stop evaluating your national identity by how different you are to everyone else ( in particular perfidious Albion).

It is mainly because I consider that being anglophone makes us dependant on a recieved culture, it ties us to the opinions, the trends, the tastes of other peoples rather than looking to ourselves and our own creativity and identity.
As it is there is a tendancy to ape the output we recieve from the anglosphere, the good and the bad indescriminatly. Just look at TV3 any night of the week to see the truth of this.

The simple fact is that we have or at least had our own culture and our own identity, one that was truely creative and stuningly literate. We have the capacity as a people to be more than just a tarnished reflection of that around us.

I lament our being subsumed and drowned in the anglosphere because that is what is happening, if it was the francosphere in which our own identity was submerged and lost, I would lament it just the same.

LordSutch · 05-08-2013 11:05PM

An Coilean wrote: »

As it is there is a tendancy to ape the output we recieve from the anglosphere, the good and the bad indescriminatly. Just look at TV3 any night of the week to see the truth of this.

The simple fact is that we have or at least had our own culture and our own identity, one that was truely creative and stuningly literate. We have the capacity as a people to be more than just a tarnished reflection of that around us.

I lament our being subsumed and drowned in the anglosphere because that is what is happening, if it was the francosphere in which our own identity was submerged and lost, I would lament it just the same.

Thing is An Coilean, like it or not we are part of the Anglosphere, we always have been, and we always will be, thank's to geography & our DNA.

As regards the Irish language, I hope it flourishes in the coming decades 'a la' the Welsh language, but the trick will be to find the magic key which unlocks Irish heads into wanting to speak Irish, for at this moment in time + all of the last eight decades, most of us (not all of us) do not want or need to speak Irish > because English suits most Irish people perfectly well.

Tony EH · 05-08-2013 11:42PM

An Coilean wrote: »

I dont think so. Brazil speaks Brazillian Portugese,and always has...

You couldn't be more wrong.

Of the original indigenous peoples of Brazil, there are over 100 different languages alone.

Brazillian Protugese has never been "always" spoken in that region.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-08-2013 12:30AM

An Coilean wrote: »

It is mainly because I consider that being anglophone makes us dependant on a recieved culture, it ties us to the opinions, the trends, the tastes of other peoples rather than looking to ourselves and our own creativity and identity.
As it is there is a tendancy to ape the output we recieve from the anglosphere, the good and the bad indescriminatly. Just look at TV3 any night of the week to see the truth of this.

The simple fact is that we have or at least had our own culture and our own identity, one that was truely creative and stuningly literate. We have the capacity as a people to be more than just a tarnished reflection of that around us.

I lament our being subsumed and drowned in the anglosphere because that is what is happening, if it was the francosphere in which our own identity was submerged and lost, I would lament it just the same.

Us and most of the world then. American culture extends well into a clot of countries that don't speak English as their main language.

Also, you never came back to me on the art point (Tallfornia, if it is what wikipedia tells me it is - sounds like a Big Brother style show, which was originally Dutch, not American - and does not make your point that all culture outside of langauge is dependent on Anglo/American inflences).

I'd also like to further my point by saying that visual art does not require a written or spoken langauge in order to make a point and therefore is an even truer universal expression of culture. Agree or disagree?

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 06-08-2013 12:31AM

An Coilean wrote: »

My identity is not a hobby.

But is the Irish language your hobby horse?

An Coilean wrote: »

It is mainly because I consider that being anglophone makes us dependant on a recieved culture, it ties us to the opinions, the trends, the tastes of other peoples rather than looking to ourselves and our own creativity and identity.

But, hang on, isn't the "us" you're talking about just your ready assumption that we should all see the world in a nationalist perspective. Nationalism, in the eyes of many of us, is just a recent invention. There isn't some Irish Adam and Eve from which we're all descended. It's not automatically the natural order of things.

Also, your use of language is too rhetorical. Surely the point (which obviously doesn't suit the Irish language enthusiasts' agenda) is that peoples own creativity, identity and choice is not to limit themselves by turning in from the world.

So, I'm afraid, you're just in the situation of having to tell us why your particular cult is better than Scientology.

BognarRegis · 06-08-2013 07:02AM

An Coilean wrote: »

but much of what passes for culture in Ireland today is nothing more than the inept aping of what has already been done and done better elsewhere.

Much of what passes for 'Gaelic' culture was invented as part of the Gaelic Revival. Many of our 'traditional' dance styles are adapted from England and elsewhere.

As for the Tir gan teanga...' thing, that is just a piece of empty rhetoric. There is no evidence that it is true.

We are what we have become. The language we speak is just an item of clothing, used to adapt us to the present conditions.

Rubeter · 06-08-2013 07:06AM

Grayson wrote: »

Just butting in here, but logic is my passion and since you're invoking it....

You're misquoting him. He said it shouldn't be done because it's stupid. not that someone shouldn't do something because he(Iwasfrozen) thought it's stupid.
What you're doing is avoiding the gist of his argument by trying to say it's his opinion. And therefore trying to imply that he's infringing someone rights by enforcing his opinions.

You're also trying to imply that it therefore nullifies his opinion and this is because of a perceived bias. However if you're willing to nullify someone opinion about a language just because it's based on a preference, then you have to also nullify the opinion of a speaker who's learning it because their ancestors spoke it. Obviously that learner is doing it for some reason of interest say possibly an emotional response (possibly due to nationalism). They have a perceived bias towards the language they're learning.

But you still haven't actually defended the position of the person who's learning a language because their ancestors spoke it. All you did was attack the person who proffered an opinion that it was wrong.

People shouldn't collect stamps because it is stupid.
People shouldn't play soccer because it is stupid.
Or to put this another way, People should not do X because I think it is stupid, hardly an argument for someone not to do something.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Name calling? Looking at my posting history? I really don't have anything else to say to you. It's obvious that your hostility towards me originates from some unknown pre conceived animosity and I really don't feel like arguing in circles with you.

I haven't been looking at your posting history I've been reading this forum for years.

Grayson · 06-08-2013 10:28AM

An Coilean wrote: »

The languages you grow up with and speak have a significant impact on who you are, the way of saying things, the folklore and literature contained in that language will all form how you percieve the world.

The language we use can influence certain things, but that's true about the English we speak. Irish people use the word feck with relish. Not to mention Jaysus and the langers in the south. We love the idioms that separate ourselves from the rest of the English speaking world.

The stories and folklore are still passed on and taught in schools but through english. There's sports we have that no-one else practices. We don't need a language for any of those things. The central bits of being irish are no different under english than irish.

Plus if we use your argument, it doesn't matter what language we speak just so long as it's different. The irish language itself would hold no value, just the fact that it's different. And considering nua-ghaeilge was pretty much conceived in the early 1900's as a language that english speakers could learn. The language has very tenuous ties to the language spoken by the irish 300 years ago or even earlier. We completely ditched the alphabet for a start. The language we learned in school is not the language of the culture you're espousing.

To quote an english poet, that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet. language is a tool that we use for communication, nothing more. The heart and soul of a country is not the language it uses but rather what it says. Rather than irish being a part of our culture, it is used by some as a tool to try and delineate our cultures.

Wibbs · 06-08-2013 10:34AM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Much of what passes for 'Gaelic' culture was invented as part of the Gaelic Revival.

Spare a thought for the Scots, the vast majority of what is regarded as Scottish culture is a late 19th century lash up.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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