Why can nobody speak Irish?

Grayson · 03-08-2013 09:48PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

The Irish lovers like to blame poor teaching on the unpopularity of the Irish language when we know there's more important factors i.e. the general lack of interest in a language that no one wants to speak.

I don't like or speak irish, but lets face it the curriculum is fcuking awful. It may actually be that if it was taught in a different way we'd all be able to speak it by primary school finishes.

conorhal · 03-08-2013 11:41PM

Wibbs wrote: »

God not Hebrew again. It's a completely different historical environment and the comparison is lazy and ill informed.

The will wasn't the thing, the need was. The returning Jewish diaspora were made up of many different groups with different languages. They required a lingua franca in a deeply practical way and Hebrew was it. We already have a lingua franca it just happens not to be Irish.

I'm sure there is an equivalent to "apples and oranges" as Gaelige and it applies to this argument.

It's not lazy or ill informed, it's an example of what can be done when there is a will to do it. If a lingua franca was required, it would have been far easier to have made that lingua franca Russian, the majority of imigrants spoke it.
The Israelis however were building a state and recognised that far more then a mere lingua franca was required to do that, a common identity was required and hebrew helpd created that. We however are so self loating as a nation we're actively demolishing or state and ripping apart our common identity, demonizing our history and ploughing under our language. It's shameful but reflective of the society we live in today, atomized and selfish.

conorhal · 03-08-2013 11:43PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

@Conorhal. And what about people who simply don't want to learn Irish?

The question that has to be asked is why though? And how can that be turned around?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-08-2013 11:56PM

conorhal wrote: »

We however are so self loating as a nation we're actively demolishing or state and ripping apart our common identity, demonizing our history and ploughing under our language. It's shameful but reflective of the society we live in today, atomized and selfish.

No, we're not. We just put more emphasis on other expressions of national pride. Football, for example.

conorhal wrote: »

The question that has to be asked is why though? And how can that be turned around?

There's no point asking "why" until you're ready to hear and accept honest answers.

As for turning it around: are you sure people want this? Accusing people of "self-loathing" simply because they don't share your view sounds like denial and makes it look like you're approriating blame. Some people don't like the langauge for very valid reasons, be it education, lifestyle or whatever. You can't turn anything around until you accept and understand this.

Carlos Orange · 04-08-2013 12:00AM

conorhal wrote: »

We however are so self loating as a nation we're actively demolishing or state and ripping apart our common identity, demonizing our history and ploughing under our language. It's shameful but reflective of the society we live in today, atomized and selfish.

Irish isn't part of our common identity except as something we are forced to learn. It is about as much a part of who I am as the 3 years of Latin I did in secondary school. Significantly less part of my cultural make up than reading XKCD.

Iwasfrozen · 04-08-2013 12:39AM

conorhal wrote: »

The question that has to be asked is why though? And how can that be turned around?

I would counter that with none of your business and why should it be turned around?

BognarRegis · 04-08-2013 06:25AM

conorhal wrote: »

The Israelis however were building a state and recognised that far more then a mere lingua franca was required to do that, a common identity was required and hebrew helpd created that. .... It's shameful but reflective of the society we live in today, atomized and selfish.

You want us to be more like Israel? A country that, to put it politely, has a robust relationship with its neighbours, a controversial human rights record and a language that alienates it from non Jews? And at the same time, you deplore societies that are atomised and selfish?

Modern Irish people speak an internationally popular language and strive to get along with their neighbours and accomodate those of different religious views. Using English has helped us avoid isolation.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 06:40AM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Modern Irish people speak an internationally popular language and strive to get along with their neighbours and accomodate those of different religious views. Using English has helped us avoid isolation.

Yea, all those non English speaking countries in Europe are very isolated and insular.
Population of Europe 700,000,000.... Population of English speaking countries in Europe 68,000,000

You want us to be more like Israel? A country that, to put it politely, has a robust relationship with its neighbours, a controversial human rights record and a language that alienates it from non Jews? And at the same time, you deplore societies that are atomised and selfish?

Can you have a discussion without making things up and claiming people said things they didn't? All he did was mention the language, he said nothing about being more like Israel politically or socially.

BognarRegis · 04-08-2013 10:30AM

Rubeter wrote: »

Yea, all those non English speaking countries in Europe are very isolated and insular.
Population of Europe 700,000,000.... Population of English speaking countries in Europe 68,000,000

Can you have a discussion without making things up and claiming people said things they didn't?.

Rubeter wrote: »

Can you have a discussion without making things up and claiming people said things they didn't? All he did was mention the language, he said nothing about being more like Israel politically or socially.

Why would one would want to make an obscure language the common language of your country? It's an important question.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 11:05AM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Can you have a discussion without making things up. I never said the non-English speaking countries were insular?

This comment shows you can't argue the point I made. Rubeter-1 BognarRegis-0
This is too easy.

Why would one would want to make an obscure language the common language of your country? It's an important question.

That depends on the language, country and people, and a better question is why not? Have a look at this and see if you can find a correlation between the language of a country and it's wealth. Off you go now and tell the people of Norway they would be better of if they spoke English or Mandarin.

Carlos Orange · 04-08-2013 11:10AM

Rubeter wrote: »

This comment shows you can't argue the point I made. Rubeter-1 BognarRegis-0
This is too easy.

That depends on the language, country and people, and a better question is why not? Have a look at this and see if you can find a correlation between the language of a country and it's wealth. Off you go now and tell the people of Norway they would be better of if they spoke English or Mandarin.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population 89% of people in Norway can speak English already so I'm sure the improvement would be fairly marginal.

Grayson · 04-08-2013 11:15AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, we're not. We just put more emphasis on other expressions of national pride. Football, for example.

Yep. There's no self loathing at all. Most people are incredibly proud to have an irish accent. Even cork people

It's strange, I, like most people across the globe, hate the sound of my voice but I still like having an irish accent

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 04-08-2013 11:16AM

Rubeter wrote: »

Yea, all those non English speaking countries in Europe are very isolated and insular.
Population of Europe 700,000,000.... Population of English speaking countries in Europe 68,000,000

And the population of people in Europe that speak English is about 250,000,000

Grayson · 04-08-2013 11:18AM

Rubeter wrote: »

This comment shows you can't argue the point I made. Rubeter-1 BognarRegis-0
This is too easy.

That depends on the language, country and people, and a better question is why not? Have a look at this and see if you can find a correlation between the language of a country and it's wealth. Off you go now and tell the people of Norway they would be better of if they spoke English or Mandarin.

How about we tell them to learn an obscure language to replace the one they already speak? As has been pointed out, they learn english as an additional language so they can communicate with foreigners. But you're asking us to ditch our native language, like Norwegian, to develop a different native language.

Ulsteryank · 04-08-2013 11:27AM

mickeyk wrote: »

Can't argue with your last point, perhaps he is the exception.

He might be an exception, because those kids make me stutter! lol Gaelscoileanna know how to do it(at least up North anyway) Obviously the numbers are far drastically lower by a long shot compared to English, but I do encounter kids speaking Irish in the streets to each other frequently.

Friend Computer · 04-08-2013 11:30AM

Rubeter wrote: »

This comment shows you can't argue the point I made. Rubeter-1 BognarRegis-0
This is too easy.

That depends on the language, country and people, and a better question is why not? Have a look at this and see if you can find a correlation between the language of a country and it's wealth. Off you go now and tell the people of Norway they would be better of if they spoke English or Mandarin.

Norway is rich primarily because of its massive oil deposits. Oh and correlation != causation, etc.. Maybe you should try reading up on these things yourself, first.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 11:36AM

psinno wrote: »

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population 89% of people in Norway can speak English already so I'm sure the improvement would be fairly marginal.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And the population of people in Europe that speak English is about 250,000,000

Woosh, right over your heads.

Grayson wrote: »

But you're asking us to ditch our native language, like Norwegian, to develop a different native language.

More makey uppy stuff.

Friend Computer wrote: »

Norway is rich primarily because of its massive oil deposits. Oh and correlation != causation, etc.. Maybe you should try reading up on these things yourself, first.

What on earth are you on about?

Can anyone here actually read English.

Grayson · 04-08-2013 12:52PM

Rubeter wrote: »

More makey uppy stuff.

Where did I make it up? There are many people advocating the use of irish as a first language for the entire population.

UCDVet · 04-08-2013 12:57PM

I think we should focus on learning Chinese and English. Seem like the two best choices currently.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 01:34PM

Grayson wrote: »

Where did I make it up?
There are many people advocating the use of irish as a first language for the entire population.

Are you for real?
You incorrectly stated that I am "....asking us to ditch our native language, like Norwegian, to develop a different native language."
You made that up, the proof is there for all (including you) to see.

I'm not going to reply to any more stupidity.

Grayson · 04-08-2013 01:39PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Are you for real?
You incorrectly stated that I am "....asking us to ditch our native language, like Norwegian, to develop a different native language."
You made that up, the proof is there for all (including you) to see.

I'm not going to reply to any more stupidity.

You said Norwegians speak Norwegian and are therefore more economically successful. I won't comment on the stupidity of that.

That implies that if the irish spoke irish, we'd be more successful. That's what you were saying.

04-08-2013 01:40PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Are you for real?
You incorrectly stated that I am "....asking us to ditch our native language, like Norwegian, to develop a different native language."
You made that up, the proof is there for all (including you) to see.

I'm not going to reply to any more stupidity.

Ah go on.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 01:43PM

Grayson wrote: »

You said Norwegians speak Norwegian and are therefore more economically successful. I won't comment on the stupidity of that.

No I didn't.

The only stupidity here is people constantly claiming people said things they didn't and then arguing against those things, highly stupid indeed.

Tony EH · 04-08-2013 02:03PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Woosh, right over your heads.

More makey uppy stuff.

What on earth are you on about?

Can anyone here actually read English.

Perhaps you should have typed it in Irish, maybe more people would have understood what you were on about....

...ah no, wait a sec....they wouldn't...

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 02:14PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Perhaps you should have typed it in Irish, maybe more people would have understood what you were on about....

...ah no, wait a sec....they wouldn't...

That post is akin to a 5 year old saying "na na na na na my daddy is bigger than yours". Amusing but a bit pathetic.

Friend Computer · 04-08-2013 03:19PM

Rubeter wrote: »

No I didn't.

Do you... actually understand English? Because that's exactly what you implied. I mean, do you know what the word "correlation" means? Because I'm guessing you don't if you think you weren't implying there's a correlation between the language they speak and their economic success.

Rubeter wrote: »

Have a look at this and see if you can find a correlation between the language of a country and it's wealth.

See? "find a correlation between the language of a country and it's [sic] wealth", here you imply that there's some kind of connection between the wealth and language spoken.

The only stupidity here is people constantly claiming people said things they didn't and then arguing against those things, highly stupid indeed.

Well maybe if you knew how to actually use the language there wouldn't be any confusion. Or just avoid the big words since they seem to be giving you trouble.

Iwasfrozen · 04-08-2013 04:29PM

Rubeter wrote: »

That depends on the language, country and people, and a better question is why not? Have a look at this and see if you can find a correlation between the language of a country and it's wealth.

Actually just by eyeballing that map I can see a correlation between the Anglophone world and prosperity.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 04:34PM

Friend Computer wrote: »

Do you... actually understand English? Because that's exactly what you implied. I mean, do you know what the word "correlation" means? Because I'm guessing you don't if you think you weren't implying there's a correlation between the language they speak and their economic success.

If I didn't know what the word meant how could I have used it in a correct fashion?

See? "find a correlation between the language of a country and it's [sic] wealth", here you imply that there's some kind of connection between the wealth and language spoken.

No it doesn't. Showing a list where there is obviously no correlation and asking someone to point out the correlation speaks for itself. Mind-numbingly simple.

Well maybe if you knew how to actually use the language there wouldn't be any confusion. Or just avoid the big words since they seem to be giving you trouble.

What trouble? I was talking about a link between language and wealth, the word correlation is perfect for that, whether there is or isn't (there isn't) is quite irrelevant to the use of the word. Logic fail on your part there.

It's like shooting fish in a barrel here.

Rubeter · 04-08-2013 04:39PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Actually just by eyeballing that map I can see a correlation between the Anglophone world and prosperity.

Try reading the list instead.

Iwasfrozen · 04-08-2013 04:41PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Try reading the list instead.

When you read the list you get bogged down in details. Just eyeball the graph, most countries in the Anglophone world are prosperous and prosperous countries that aren't tend to have a high population of English speakers. Now I'm not saying correlation = causation but there is a correlation.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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