Chinese targets of racism in Africa due too resource buying

Christ the Redeemer · 03-08-2013 05:11PM

Chinese investment in Africa is terrible. They should just build military bases like the yanks and carry out a phony war against muslims as a justification.

Red Nissan · 03-08-2013 05:17PM

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Chinese investment in Africa is terrible. They should just build military bases like the yanks and carry out a phony war against muslims as a justification.

I think the Yanks have the Muslims covered, Obama has put the world on a level 1, conflict imminent for August :rolleyes:

I think the Chinese should just built military bases and carry out a phony war against say Scientology or another sexy religion, or better yet, just invent a new super religion that only the Chinese can take down.

UCDVet · 03-08-2013 05:33PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

I'd have a concern that we should support nationalism. Taken to extreme, we'd see the Jew homeless again, the US returned to the Indian Nations repatriation on a global scale and embargoes, trade restrictions, and global thermonuclear war.

On the other hand the Chinese and Americans take over the two halves of the world and we still end up with global thermonuclear war.

The only way to win is not to play.

It's easy to point to the US and China - but I'd argue that Ireland isn't too different.

If the Irish government decides they have a need for your property - they can take it, by force. Oh sure, they'll 'write you a check' - but they can take it, and you can't stop it. And it's all legal.

It's the same thinking that the US used to justify taking the land of the Native Americans. They even signed legal documents.

AllGunsBlazing · 03-08-2013 06:45PM

Surely we're all culpable in this?

Where else are they going to source the raw materials to build the gadgets we demand and at a price we are willing to pay?

earlyevening · 03-08-2013 06:58PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Rep of Congo. It's happening in Tanzania and Zimbabwe too aparantly. Pm me if you want to know more.

Chinese all over Ethiopia too. I've seen it.

kneemos · 03-08-2013 07:08PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Niall Mellon township trust

Donate at the checkout of your local Dunnes or Tesco to send some 8 stone girl to Africa to build homes. I'm sure she is fit but is she fit enough to labour on a site in hot weather? Maybe. So donate to pay for her flights.

Meanwhile hard working local labourers get some employment but not all of the employment.

But isn't Niall Mellon a saint for doing this and all the while his developments charged full price to Irish buyers and now he is involved with NAMA

Often wondered about that,why don't they employ the locals to build the houses,the cost of the airfares would probably go a long ways out there.

Fox_In_Socks · 03-08-2013 07:13PM

kneemos wrote: »

Often wondered about that,why don't they employ the locals to build the houses,the cost of the airfares would probably go a long ways out there.

Hmmm...I think that they originally wanted to minimise the amount of money being siphoned off due to bribary/corrupption etc, but tbh, I don't see why an Irish person needs to physically build it. They could just oversee the distribution of money to the local labourers better.

ScumLord · 03-08-2013 07:17PM

kneemos wrote: »

Often wondered about that,why don't they employ the locals to build the houses,the cost of the airfares would probably go a long ways out there.

Because a starving African isn't as good at extracting money from mommy, daddy and the extended family as a whining teenage white girl. It's the money they're after, just like paying a high wage to a CEO is seen as worth it in the long run. Spending a lot of money flying out someone who wants to add "saved Africa" to their facebook status is worth it because they will generate enough money to finish the project.

It wouldn't surprise me if most of the work is done by the locals either way. Unless the people going over are getting a safe pass and have some labour skills I don't see them doing anything more dangerous than shoveling sand into a cement mixer. The charities wouldn't risk sending them home injured.

woodoo · 03-08-2013 07:42PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. I find it funny that you can have anti American rhetoric and be thanked for it, yet generally China are a great bunch o lads. Yea this is a place that harvests organs from executed criminals and executes more of it's own people than any other nation on earth. This is a culture with a real imperial mindset. This is a place where the haves and have nots divide is growing exponentially. This is a place that doesn't give two hoots about pollution on an industrial scale, nor cares about it's own people so long as China keeps marching forward. A place where dissenters are silenced, even "disappeared". Yea we should be more like them alright. My arse.

And a place that is destroying the wildlife of Africa in pursuit of their silly potions.

Wibbs · 03-08-2013 07:47PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

China fracturing is a very real alternative, trade embargoes will be met with missiles, though somewhat obsolete and lacking in expertise China had prepared herself to defend against and deliver nuclear exchanges to both the USA and the USSR ~ though she may be ineffective in actual combat, she is at least theoretically more powerful than the rest of the World combined.

Not even close RN. The single largest organisation in the world is the US military. The largest air fleet in the world is the US air force. The second largest is the US Navy. If China was stupid enough to kick off at them and the Russians? There would be no quarter given and it would be Game Over for China. The Russians alone? Well if history tells us anything it's that you really don't want to fcuk with the Russians. And well they know it. Their posturing is more about local stuff.

She reminds us of that with her Air Craft Carrier programme and the reports of her building her own super carriers with 2015 a possible launch date. Whilst she has been denied technologies she has her own space programme, satellites, mini station and is more than capable of making her fleet battle ready retrofitting them herself.

All of the above are either loaned tech from the Russians over the years or blatant ripoffs of western tech. Sadly given their near unassailable history of previous innovation today they're peddling hand me downs for the most part.

ScumLord wrote: »

That was pretty bizarre, they were at the cusp of global empire and then decided to just not bother. I think it was probably their best chance at it, I don't think they currently have the ingenuity they had back then, their government has seen to eradicating that and despite their global presence they've really only got their toes in the water, I could see them slipping back into isolation at any time.

Red Nissan wrote: »

They were more than capable of ruling the whole place, and they just did not. WTF? It is strange indeed.

Again it helps to contextualise it by again thinking of them not as a country, but an empire. In that context and mindset they already had an empire and a huge one at that. The largest in sheer landmass. They also had little or no local competition for most of their history. Contrast that to Europe and the European long in the saddle mindset of conquest and empire building. Small countries looking to expand and conquer resources. I suspect if Rome had lasted as long as China you'd have seen a similar mindset set in and the Americas may have taken a few more centuries to find. There was much more pressure from local competition too. It even took out Rome itself. You had the "barbarians" and then after that the Muslim world. Europe has been competing internally and at a very intense level for nigh on 3000 years. All this drove innovation and technology and even a very martial mindset in Europe.

Take the example of the Mongols. Fierce fighters and highly mobile. They took China and to paraphrase a line applied to the Normans in Ireland they became more Chinese than the Chinese themselves. They took out the head and the body followed. Now imagine the Mongols had tried to take Europe. They did, but for various reasons it was a damp squib, but imagine those reasons weren't there and they tried the same as worked in China. Big problem. There isn't one head you can take out and claim Europe. There is no center to hold because there is no center in the first place. So you take out the Germans, then you're dealing with the French(the most successful land army in European history), if you take out them, then you have the Spaniards and the Dutch and the Portugese and the Brits and the Polish and Italians are chomping at your flanks and try hold the territory you've already conquered when the Russians see an opportunity to sweep down behind you with their own murderous hordes. Sorry Genghis you're fooked.

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Surely we're all culpable in this?

Where else are they going to source the raw materials to build the gadgets we demand and at a price we are willing to pay?

Indeed we are. We should be going direct to source and engage with the locals in a mutually beneficial way. Learn the lessons of history and build a mutually beneficial "empire" on trade, not near indentured slavery dressed up for the 21st century.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Niall Mellon township trust

Donate at the checkout of your local Dunnes or Tesco to send some 8 stone girl to Africa to build homes. I'm sure she is fit but is she fit enough to labour on a site in hot weather? Maybe. So donate to pay for her flights.

Meanwhile hard working local labourers get some employment but not all of the employment.

Yea good oul guilt tourism. I've known people who were very genuine in going out on such trips and fair play, but like you it would make me uncomfortable to say the least. Far better to sponsor some expert guys and gals to go out and show the locals how they might improve local building techniques and get them to sell stuff back to us. That we we build a customer base for each other and it's all good.

HandsomeJonny · 03-08-2013 07:53PM

I work 50% of the year in Beijing but don't live there. I could never live there. However I find China a fascinating country. The chinese people are wired completely different to us in the west. Our project is really difficult because the chinese colleagues are extremely inefficient and unable to come to a decision by themselves. You can't work with them on a peer level. They are like small children and need to be led. As someone said this is the way china has always been. It's an empire and the communist party is just the latest dynasty.

I also find some similarities to Ireland in China. For one they have a massive property bubble and accomodation in Beijing is insanely expensive. On the other hand I look out my window and can see in certain places empty sky scrapers. It's just a bit surreal. There is so much money in China now that it is incredible. It's common to see teenage girls driving ferrari's and other luxury cars. Chinese people now want everything big and new and better than before. They are making all the mistakes we made. Building huge shopping malls that are complete eyes sores. Like at San li tun or wangfujing but that is just two examples.

I think when the chinese economy crashes the impact it will have on the world as a whole will make the financial crisis of 2008 look like a drop in the ocean.

And China's pollution is incredible. After about 2 days in China you can feel it in your lungs. You have no energy. I was there last week. It was around 38% with very humid weather. That combined with the pollution and you can just feel your life expectancy decreasing.

China only cares about China. Maybe in the short term Africa will benefit but long term the Africas need to build an economy to sustain themselves if possible.

ScumLord · 03-08-2013 08:07PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Europe has been competing internally and at a very intense level for nigh on 3000 years. All this drove innovation and technology and even a very martial mindset in Europe.

I suppose, nothing drives innovation and greed like competition. I was only thinking about it last night watching a documentary on machu picchu, compared to Europe the south Americans were over 1000 years behind the technology curve but then those people had to deal with establishing themselves on two new continents while the middle east was settling down to farm.

dsmythy · 03-08-2013 08:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

It seems that this time they will as anger and resentment is building up against the Chinese in a few places. I caught a programme on BBC2 a while back and the interviews with the Chinese ex pats in Tanzania(IIRC) were beyond cringeworthy. All they were short of were pith helmets and linens. Real 19th century thinking as far as the locals went.

Plus this time a lot of that continent is growing economically, the population is booming and education is increasing year by year. Now if a few nations kick off an African spring and boot out some of the corrupt bastards that have ruined their own people that would a major bonus.

I recall that (or a similar) documentary. The Chinese bosses thought of themselves as doing Africans a favour that they should be grateful for. When pushed as to what they thought of the Africans as workers 'lazy' seemed to be their preferred word.

losthorizon · 03-08-2013 08:40PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

I doubt if Western minds could understand, and seemingly we don't have the reports either, were they also burnt with the fleet?

So we are left wondering if they reported that the rest of the world was occupied by monsters, vultures and undesirables.

Its not long ago that the west felt like this as well. Maybe 500 years ago. Which is not so long in human terms.

I work for a Japanese company. Now, I'm not for important in my company but the Japs are supposed to be nice to visit when guys go over to Japan and will mix socially when the come over here.

We also have offshoots in the USA and China , Vietnam and Singapore (I think).

The Americans are mad drinkers. Management have said that the Chinese cities they have visited have been dives and they do a proccess in Vietnam which is outlawed in the EU for us.

Red Nissan · 03-08-2013 08:50PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Not even close RN. The single largest organisation in the world is the US military. The largest air fleet in the world is the US air force. The second largest is the US Navy. If China was stupid enough to kick off at them and the Russians?

The Russians are now a fraction of the force that China prepared to engage, and there is no friction there currently, North Korea is allegedly a different country armed with Chinese nuclear tipped artillery munitions.

The US air force could use and lose it's entire wing, even with nuclear weapons and still not impart enough damage to neutralise China. A land army with conventional and nuclear tipped weapons could and probably would emerge that the US could not counter.

If an exchange of ICBMs occured, and assuming China's worked, let alone hit their targets, the US would be obliterated, left with a nuclear submarine force and a navy with little or no carrier support.

Which is why Dong can mouth off so evocatively and threaten New York with nuclear obliteration, because he can do it. Or his cousin can, you know better than me the way China works.

It puts into perspective the real threat and the tom foolery that an invented non existent terrorist force can and cannot really do.

The one thing is time, the longer we go the less likely the Chinese weapons will even launch, whilst we know the US are maintaining their declared supply, Russia went broke and her fleet is ineffective and her nuclear deterrent is rusted away, the Chinese seemed to have done nothing.

Red Nissan · 03-08-2013 09:06PM

This is a racism comment, but it has been referred to already in this thread.

But many of the comments about the Africans v Chinese, that is what the Chinese are saying about their hosts are repeated on Cork Streets and Dublin Streets.

Whilst I don't think the Chinese invasion should succeed, there seems to be certain generalizations emerging and having watched the video link provided above, we could make that documentary in St Patrick's Street in the morning and get precisely that same comments.

We need to look at the global picture here, we can't all be saying the same things about the same ethnic groups.

Wibbs · 03-08-2013 09:38PM

losthorizon wrote: »

Its not long ago that the west felt like this as well. Maybe 500 years ago. Which is not so long in human terms.

True but Europe had so many killer apps that it was near a given it would streak ahead. We had the geography and the politics that stemmed from that. We had christianity, which was at once a unifying force(the continuation of Roman empire, only for the soul of Europe) but also allowed for separate development within Europe. Then we had the various plagues that both got people questioning heaven's authority and the status quo and kicked feudalism squarely in the nuts. We had a renaissance(actually more than one), then we had an enlightenment, which really revved up science. Not having just one centralised European culture also tended to mean we'd hoover up outside ideas and because of internal competition make them better.

Printing is a very good example of Europe being fertile ground for this stuff. Obviously it hit the Islamic world first, but because Arabic is so complex a text movable type is a bitch to accommodate. Plus the scribes/copyists were a powerful religious lobby so game over there and because it was an empire it was game over throughout said empire. The first printed Quran came from Russia and it was the 20th century before it was printed in the Islamic world in any numbers. So it hits Europe with it's simple alphabet, right in the middle of a religious and political internal spat and Whammo it goes stratospheric. European religious texts which were about the first thing to be printed. Then the arguments started and were printed and then other arguments started, then we had an explosion of knowledge in many languages, even down to daily flyers for your ordinary folks. This happened within the guts of 30 years too. If you're 20 today it's kinda hard to remember a world without this interweb, you kinda have to be 30 plus before that lack of same comes into focus. Well back in the day printing wasn't far off that. A 50 year old could recall a time before books and printed stuff everywhere*.

Red Nissan wrote:

The US air force could use and lose it's entire wing, even with nuclear weapons and still not impart enough damage to neutralise China.

I don't think you realise the sheer scale of the American war machine. The "war on terror" stuff is mostly a policing action with some constraints attached. An all out war? Jesus. The Yanks could bring to bear a level of utter murderous destruction that would beggar belief and one would hope and pray it never happens.

The land army wouldn't mean jack really. The Yanks would control the skies. Take an historical example. The French whipped England's butt so many times in land engagements it wasn't funny. "Remember Agincourt!" the Brits may say, but seem to forget they lost nearly every other battle of that war and lost the war itself. The Brits many years later won in the end because of superior sea power. The Yanks air power and ordinance delivery power is of a magnitude greater than anything the Chinese could muster on their best day. That would be the decider today.

I'd not rule out the Russians either. If China got even a little previous with those folks and their motherland, I'd not give them great odds. Consider a peacetime moment where the motherland was threatened. Chernobyl. When it went bang and the core was highly unstable and threatened to cause even more widespread catastrophe, tens of thousands of Russian men and women volunteered to go into the molten core to help dig it out. To a certain death. We may joke about the meme "in Russia X fcuks you", but it has more than a kernal of truth. They are hard buggers. Without them Godwinning a thread would have no meaning(see what I did there

)).

We need to look at the global picture here, we can all be saying the same things about the same ethnic groups.

Oh most certainly yes RN. It's an all too easy and convenient trap to fall into too. However and it's only IMHO, I think you can draw with a broad brush some cultural differences between different parts of the world and how these diffs may impact larger social, geographical, economic and political changes over time.

*aside; interestingly Leo da Vinci didn't dig printing one little bit and he was living in the crucible of the new tech. He refused to publish his works and his only foray into the new tech was knocking up a frontispiece for book written by a good mate of his, who twisted his arm over a few vinos(he was well liked as a bloke who'd give a mate a dig out). Imagine today, someone like I dunno Steve Hawking(only a brainiac across ten disciplines) who didn't have email or a computer.

03-08-2013 09:51PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Imagine a scenario where western nations think eh hang on lads, enough is enough and slap a trade embargo or punitive taxes(and they wouldn't have to be that punitive to have an effect) on Chinese made goods. Pretty much game over for China and her export market.

And what'll it do to western economies?

03-08-2013 09:53PM

Wibbs wrote: »

killer apps

Please. No.

Wibbs · 03-08-2013 10:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And what'll it do to western economies?

Likely reinvigorate them after a period of WTF. IMHO for too long the western economies have concentrated on the abstract money markets and quarterly reports, ever looking for a way to make money from money and too much of that money was ephemeral. Let's get back to making the stuff that is imagined and designed in the "west". Put it another way, where would China et al be if those innovations and designs never happened. Nowhere, that's where.

Deleted User wrote: »

Please. No.

I know, I know, please don't hate me.

:D

Capt'n Midnight · 03-08-2013 11:06PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Niall Mellon township trust

Don't get me started.

Lots of places in Africa have red clay which they make bricks from. There's a hole in the ground and a stack of clay bricks made into an oven. It's not a million miles away from cutting and stacking turf. Fire the bricks. You don't need to make huge investments until you need to buy a bag of cement and at that stage you're half way home. Just need to add corrugated roof , doors and windows to taste.

Red Nissan · 03-08-2013 11:08PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The Yanks air power and ordinance delivery power is of a magnitude greater than anything the Chinese could muster on their best day. That would be the decider today..

No they can't and that's not what I'm saying, they could shoot down the entire US air-force if the US committed to an attack, the point being that China would emerge stronger.

China could absorb the entire US arsenal and still emerge a powerful force.

Hense, the US's ignoring of Dong's threat to nuke New York. China can't attack the US apart from ICBMs, nuking NY would necessitate a response, but the US can attack China, but they can't as it's the losing move.

The US has no super weapons, the state of China's ICBMs is not known, probably dysfunctional, if they are not, they outnumber the best the US can deliver.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-08-2013 11:27PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Not even close RN. The single largest organisation in the world is the US military. The largest air fleet in the world is the US air force. The second largest is the US Navy.

US and UK spend more on defence than everyone else put together.

To give some perspective here is a picture of some US amphibious assault ships in the North Arabian Gulf
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_030420-N-7128D-011_The_amphibious_assault_ships_of_Commander,_Task_Force_Fifty_One_%28CTF-51%29_come_together_in_an_unprecedented_formation.jpg

They are NOT carriers. (even though they are bigger and more capable than almost everyone else's carriers)
each one can carry more warplanes than our airforce ( the UK sold them all their Harriers )
The number of troops that lot could carry is about the same as our Army, including the FCA

And they have lots more of them , as well as some mothballed ones.

No you don't want to challenge the US navy on the high seas.

southsiderosie · 03-08-2013 11:32PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There are two big differences between Chinese money and Western money

There are no human rights conditions attached to the Chinese money, and even if there were it would be at most the rights they get at home. It's a straight up business deal.

Yes there is corruption but at the end of the day the stuff gets built.

Well, it does and it doesn't. One of the key drivers of anti-Chinese sentiment is shoddy construction. To be fair, this is a huge problem in China as well - greedy, politically connected developers do crappy work, pack up and leave, and a few years later dozens of children are killed when their school collapses.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-08-2013 11:36PM

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Chinese investment in Africa is terrible. They should just build military bases like the yanks and carry out a phony war against muslims as a justification.

But it's much cheaper to build roads :pac:

losthorizon · 03-08-2013 11:37PM

@ Capt Midnight And yet the Vietnamese beat them

Capt'n Midnight · 03-08-2013 11:37PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Must not be that old a saying Cap as when the West went in in any numbers to view(and rape) the place the country had very few paved roads outside the cities

What about the Great Wall, and the canals and bridges ?

Don't forget when the west went in it was during a time of civil war which was possibly the most lethal one ever.

Frank Lee Midere · 03-08-2013 11:37PM

That Niall ferguson killer apps thing is nonsense. A just so theory retrofitted onto the historical facts.

As for China and Africa it's hardly a colonial invasion. They are companies invited in. Like we invite in Google.

Frank Lee Midere · 03-08-2013 11:40PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

No they can't and that's not what I'm saying, they could shoot down the entire US air-force if the US committed to an attack, the point being that China would emerge stronger.

China could absorb the entire US arsenal and still emerge a powerful force.

Hense, the US's ignoring of Dong's threat to nuke New York. China can't attack the US apart from ICBMs, nuking NY would necessitate a response, but the US can attack China, but they can't as it's the losing move.

The US has no super weapons, the state of China's ICBMs is not known, probably dysfunctional, if they are not, they outnumber the best the US can deliver.

Until America completes Star Wars

crockholm · 03-08-2013 11:46PM

They're even proposing to build a 450 M high skyscraper in Addis Abbaba called the Menes Zanawi (iirc,I am drunk on poitin now)centre. And only a few years ago we were giving our pennies there. So,they are planning on building a tower the size of Sears/Willis Tower in Chicago,while we have Liberty Hall?

Maybe the Chinese are right,do business-not aid.

Chinese targets of racism in Africa due too resource buying

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