Chinese targets of racism in Africa due too resource buying

steddyeddy

I'm currently in Africa and have noticed that nearly every building over here is built by the Chinese. Local workers arent hired and a lot of tbe continent's resources area being sold. The resources are being sold for short term profit by a corrupt government. As a result the chinese are targets of racism in Africa.

There's a lot of poverty here and it sickens me that the the continent's one chance of prosperity is being robbed. I dont agree with racism but I do thnking local groups should fight back. What does everyone else think?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm currently in Africa and have noticed that nearly every building over here is built by the Chinese. Local workers arent hired and a lot of tbe continent's resources area being sold. The resources are being sold for short term profit by a corrupt government. As a result the chinese are targets of racism in Africa.

There's a lot of poverty here and it sickens me that the the continent's one chance of prosperity is being robbed. I dont agree with racism but I do thnking local groups should fight back. What does everyone else think?

Been going on for years, the French,British,Germans,Portugese,Belgians have all raped Africa.

steddyeddy

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Been going on for years, the French,British,Germans,Portugese,Belgians have all raped Africa.

Actually that's Chinese defence. Still I hope the Africans fight back.

losthorizon

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm currently in Africa and have noticed that nearly every building over here is built by the Chinese. Local workers arent hired and a lot of tbe continent's resources area being sold. The resources are being sold for short term profit by a corrupt government. As a result the chinese are targets of racism in Africa.

There's a lot of poverty here and it sickens me that the the continent's one chance of prosperity is being robbed. I dont agree with racism but I do thnking local groups should fight back. What does everyone else think?

What part of Africa are you in as a matter of interest?

I Think most people think of Africa as one grey mass of unyielding poverty, where every country is exactly the same which of course is not true at all.


Was thinking of going to Namibia myself.

Banjo String

The Africans obviously don't watch father Ted.

If they did they'd realise what a great bunch of lads they have staying with them

Red Nissan

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont agree with racism but I do thnking local groups should fight back. What does everyone else think?

OK I'll meet ye all outside Fota Hotel Resort next month to man the barricades to stop the Kangs taking possession of their purchase?

OH! Do you mean only in Africa?

steddyeddy

losthorizon wrote: »

What part of Africa are you in as a matter of interest?

I Think most people think of Africa as one grey mass of unyielding poverty, where every country is exactly the same which of course is not true at all.


Was thinking of going to Namibia myself.

Rep of Congo. It's happening in Tanzania and Zimbabwe too aparantly. Pm me if you want to know more.

kneemos

The Chinese at least are showing what can be done with proper investment,African Governments seem unable,unwilling or just not bothered to make the same effort.

dr.bollocko

kneemos wrote: »

The Chinese at least are showing what can be done with proper investment,African Governments seem unable,unwilling or just not bothered to make the same effort.

Yeah China's a thriving example of a modern metropolis. Jesus. If only Ireland could be more like China eh? Eh? EH?

Wibbs

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually that's Chinese defence. Still I hope the Africans fight back.

It seems that this time they will as anger and resentment is building up against the Chinese in a few places. I caught a programme on BBC2 a while back and the interviews with the Chinese ex pats in Tanzania(IIRC) were beyond cringeworthy. All they were short of were pith helmets and linens. Real 19th century thinking as far as the locals went.

Plus this time a lot of that continent is growing economically, the population is booming and education is increasing year by year. Now if a few nations kick off an African spring and boot out some of the corrupt bastards that have ruined their own people that would a major bonus.

Wibbs

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Yeah China's a thriving example of a modern metropolis. Jesus. If only Ireland could be more like China eh? Eh? EH?

Indeed. I find it funny that you can have anti American rhetoric and be thanked for it, yet generally China are a great bunch o lads. Yea this is a place that harvests organs from executed criminals and executes more of it's own people than any other nation on earth. This is a culture with a real imperial mindset. This is a place where the haves and have nots divide is growing exponentially. This is a place that doesn't give two hoots about pollution on an industrial scale, nor cares about it's own people so long as China keeps marching forward. A place where dissenters are silenced, even "disappeared". Yea we should be more like them alright. My arse.

losthorizon

steddyeddy wrote: »

Rep of Congo. It's happening in Tanzania and Zimbabwe too aparantly. Pm me if you want to know more.

I can understand Zimbabwe as Mugabe(sp) has been in power for so long. The west has him under sanctions and hes in desperate need of outside help. Plus he is a bit of a tyrant?

I watched that Simon Reeves show which passed through Africa through the Tropic of Capricorn. He is interesting but he has a habit of showing the worst of every country.

From what I have read Namibia is fairly well off . Where you are is not and the Dem Rep of Congo next door is a nightmare and huge (larger than western europe).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZDsRgAiEk

Its funny to see where board members pop up in

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. I find it funny that you can have anti American rhetoric and be thanked for it, yet generally China are a great bunch o lads. Yea this is a place that harvests organs from executed criminals and executes more of it's own people than any other nation on earth. This is a culture with a real imperial mindset. This is a place where the haves and have nots divide is growing exponentially. This is a place that doesn't give two hoots about pollution on an industrial scale, nor cares about it's own people so long as China keeps marching forward. A place where dissenters are silenced, even "disappeared". Yea we should be more like them alright. My arse.

I don't think you should read so much into people putting up clips of Father Ted.

Also one wonders when the Chinese culture of Imperialism arose (maybe re-arose).

kneemos

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Yeah China's a thriving example of a modern metropolis. Jesus. If only Ireland could be more like China eh? Eh? EH?

Never mentioned China.What I said was look what can be done in Africa with the right investment.Somebody should start an anti China thread people are frothing at the mouth.

Red Nissan

I'd have a concern that we should support nationalism. Taken to extreme, we'd see the Jew homeless again, the US returned to the Indian Nations repatriation on a global scale and embargoes, trade restrictions, and global thermonuclear war.

On the other hand the Chinese and Americans take over the two halves of the world and we still end up with global thermonuclear war.

The only way to win is not to play.

losthorizon

Wibbs wrote: »

Now if a few nations kick off an African spring and boot out some of the corrupt bastards that have ruined their own people that would a major bonus.

Excluding Zimbabwe and South Africa a few of the nations in Southern Africa are actually doing ok. There is actually growth in Africa but as you say if they could get rid of the corruption in most of the continent that would be a great step.

For instance Equatorial Guinea a small country is the 69th richest country in the world yet most of the people there are dirt poor its just an elite who see the money. (From oil) - Its a bit like Bahrain.

The other major problem left over from colonial times is the nations themselves. Most of them dont make sense. They contain loads of different ethnic groups with different priorities often with different religions. Nigeria would be a good case Christians and Muslims mixed into one country as well as different nationalities. It would be like putting Germany, France and Spain together into one country and some Muslims. Its not an African failing btw just look at Northern Ireland two sets of Christians cant get on.

biko

A look at how the swell of Chinese globalisation is having an impact on the coast of Africa.

losthorizon

^^^

I haven't watched the above yet but it should be noted also that the French also take a huge interest in Africa as well. Not sure for good or ill though.

suicide_circus

Lacism

Oranage2

Happens everywhere, we complain about the polish, Poland complains again about the old slavic states, south Africans complain about Zimbabwians taking all their jobs.

As for China buying up all the land, it does have benefits, China will build an infrastructure, roads public transport and possibly schools and hospitals.

A lot of these African states government aren't willing, too corrupt or dont have the know how to move forward, china will at least put some of these in but of course it'll be at a cost.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Also one wonders when the Chinese culture of Imperialism arose (maybe re-arose).

It's always been there, from the very foundation of the place. China is not a country in the usual sense, more a land empire, so the mindset is very different. It's always been highly centralised, with particular borders to the empire. It's one reason why the Chinese psyche doesn't see why the west has an issue with tibet. We see it as a separate nation, but for them Tibet is historically within in the boundaries of China the empire. It's also been quite the stagnant, inward looking, bound to tradition kind of place and that even influenced invaders. The Mongols marched in and took over, but rather than making China Mongolian they bought into the Chinese vibe themselves. In Europe I suppose the closest comparison might have been ancient Rome at it's height, centralised, made up of many cultures but Roman.

This imperial nature has made for very long term stability, but also stagnation. Many will say it's amazing that Chinese of hundreds of years ago is still legible today, but I'd say the opposite. China has come up with truly staggering innovations down the centuries, but rarely did they exploit them to the degree others did. EG printing. THey had printing for hundreds of years before Europe(though they didn't invent it), but mostly produced short runs of religious texts. Printing hits Europe and within the span of an average lifetime(even then) the first information revolution kicks off. They had gunpowder too for ages yet didn't see the real game changer it was. Europe gets it and changes world maps. Why? Because of vigorous internal competition within Europe, a competition that wasn't present within China. IMHO and for the above reasons one of the best things to happen to Europe was the rise of Rome, but an even better thing was its fall.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

It's always been there, from the very foundation of the place. China is not a country in the usual sense, more a land empire, so the mindset is very different. It's always been highly centralised, with particular borders to the empire. It's one reason why the Chinese psyche doesn't see why the west has an issue with tibet. We see it as a separate nation, but for them Tibet is historically within in the boundaries of China the empire. It's also been quite the stagnant, inward looking, bound to tradition kind of place and that even influenced invaders. The Mongols marched in and took over, but rather than making China Mongolian they bought into the Chinese vibe themselves. In Europe I suppose the closest comparison might have been ancient Rome at it's height, centralised, made up of many cultures but Roman.

This imperial nature has made for very long term stability, but also stagnation. Many will say it's amazing that Chinese of hundreds of years ago is still legible today, but I'd say the opposite. China has come up with truly staggering innovations down the centuries, but rarely did they exploit them to the degree others did. EG printing. THey had printing for hundreds of years before Europe(though they didn't invent it), but mostly produced short runs of religious texts. Printing hits Europe and within the span of an average lifetime(even then) the first information revolution kicks off. They had gunpowder too for ages yet didn't see the real game changer it was. Europe gets it and changes world maps. Why? Because of vigorous internal competition within Europe, a competition that wasn't present within China. IMHO and for the above reasons one of the best things to happen to Europe was the rise of Rome, but an even better thing was its fall.

Yeah it's the bolded bit that is difficult to reconcile with their apparent Imperialism/colonialism.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah it's the bolded bit that is difficult to reconcile with their apparent Imperialism/colonialism.

They've previous with looking outward for a time, but it rarely lasts for very long. One emperor sent out a fleet of huge junks to map the known world, likely made it to Australia and the Americas before Europeans did. So one by one they came back reporting of the outside world and then they stopped and scuttled the ships in their harbours and looked inward again.

Nailz

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. I find it funny that you can have anti American rhetoric and be thanked for it, yet generally China are a great bunch o lads. Yea this is a place that harvests organs from executed criminals and executes more of it's own people than any other nation on earth. This is a culture with a real imperial mindset. This is a place where the haves and have nots divide is growing exponentially. This is a place that doesn't give two hoots about pollution on an industrial scale, nor cares about it's own people so long as China keeps marching forward. A place where dissenters are silenced, even "disappeared". Yea we should be more like them alright. My arse.

QFT.

I lived in Hong Kong for a while up until recently and with that I made my fair share of trips into the mainland. A very bleak place indeed, not once did I feel comfortable being around it. On an economic level I've never experienced such a gulf between the classes in all of my travels, and this from a supposedly classless society? Visiting landmarks, particularly those of a state/governmental significance just turned my stomach, the sinister feel was just too much.

I've never felt so unwelcome either – now I'm a 6"4 pale ginger dude, straight from Paddyland one might say – but I was gazed at with dead stares by every set of eyes walking past me on the street, I've had people trying to sneak photos of me when I wasn't looking, I was even preached at by a middle-aged man with surprisingly good English, telling me how Maoist Communism defeated Western societies. He didn't look the better off of the two of us anyway, I would've thrown out facts that he didn't know (or wasn't allowed to speak of), but I preferred to spare myself the execution.

A lot of the Chinese in the mainland are really scumbags with an imperialist mentality, and the majority of mainland China is a great big grey polluted ****hole, and shares the same crappy characteristics with other communist environments I've experienced. If themselves and the Japanese ever have a wee scuff again, I know who I'm going for.

Capt'n Midnight

There are two big differences between Chinese money and Western money

There are no human rights conditions attached to the Chinese money, and even if there were it would be at most the rights they get at home. It's a straight up business deal.

Yes there is corruption but at the end of the day the stuff gets built.



There's an old Chinese saying about to build wealth you must first build roads.

China plays the long game. Roll back to 1967
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAZARA_Railway

Wibbs

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There's an old Chinese saying about to build wealth you must first build roads.

Must not be that old a saying Cap as when the West went in in any numbers to view(and rape) the place the country had very few paved roads outside the cities(and it was largely the Germans who built their rail network). It was to all intents and purposes a medieval kingdom. A peasant from say 1100 AD wouldn't have seen much of a change if he or she had gone forward in time to 1800. Indeed contrary to popular, China has only had one period where it was ahead of Europe in per capita wealth and that was in the 'dark ages' after Rome fell and that gap only lasted about a century.

Will they do it differently this time? Maybe, they're resilient folks with lots of very clever people, but I doubt it. Time is against them. They're gonna become old before they become rich for a start. The youth demographic that fueled their remarkable growth is contracting and fast and with that costs go up. Their profit margins are very vulnerable. Corruption is rife, much of it state sponsored. They over compete with each other to the detriment of the whole. Wholesale counterfeiting is a very real issue. They've built the largest commodities bubble in history and on top of all that you have the urban peasants the "old hundred names" who are not getting enough of a bite of the pie and you ignore those folks at your peril. They may have interesting times ahead

Red Nissan

Wibbs wrote: »

They had gunpowder too for ages yet didn't see the real game changer it was. .

Seemingly they did and had made canon saw the destruction and imposed an arms embargo on itself. Also the code of conduct for fighting was held in high regard by the various religion-like groups.

It saw Western influences as a threat and closed up the country, it would have done that for maybe thousands of years, the Great Wall was a physical barrier built to save resources for other wars.

It is odd as in amusing, that whilst the First World has been under invasion from the Third World for decades, they have obviously left a gap to be filled, and it's being filled by perhaps the only nation and philosophy that possibly could do so and much more.

I think the Africans have a right to be fearful, in one hundred years it will be a Chinese province, and Africa a displaced peoples living in Europe and displacing the Europeans ~ so, where will WE go?

Wibbs

Red Nissan wrote: »

Seemingly they did and had made canon saw the destruction and imposed an arms embargo on itself. Also the code of conduct for fighting was held in high regard by the various religion-like groups.

Laudable, if dumb.

It is odd as in amusing, that whilst the First World has been under invasion from the Third World for decades,

Invasion? Hardly. Taking Europe alone it's always had people from elsewhere heading into it at various times throughout history. Little has changed in that respect.

they have obviously left a gap to be filled, and it's being filled by perhaps the only nation and philosophy that possibly could do so and much more.

I seriously doubt it.

I think the Africans have a right to be fearful, in one hundred years it will be a Chinese province, and Africa a displaced peoples living in Europe and displacing the Europeans ~ so, where will WE go?

Eh. No. Not going to happen. In one hundred years the Chinese won't be within spitting distance of making anywhere a province. Indeed I could even see China itself fracturing before that happens. Imagine a scenario where western nations think eh hang on lads, enough is enough and slap a trade embargo or punitive taxes(and they wouldn't have to be that punitive to have an effect) on Chinese made goods. Pretty much game over for China and her export market. Sure they could continue to sell to themselves in ever increasing ways to stave off the fall, but that doesn't work for long. Hell it's not working now. There are many millions, yes millions of living spaces currently empty in China today. It makes our building boom look like we weren't really trying and is very similar to it too.

Watched another doc on the beeb which follwed the fate of a small town in China over a decade. Some very interesting parallels. The town turned into a small city with huge paper investment. Some got very rich, many got richer and all were either in investment, building, or landlords. The city itself appeared to be booming, but there was only one factory actually making "stuff" for local and export use. The rest was a beast feeding itself. The high street shops, outside of a few new fancy restaurants were in the building housing trade. When you see more than one bathroom, sofa or tile emporium springing up, that's when you know it's time to leg it before the crap comes crashing down.

Africa and especially South America are going to be strongly emerging markets and able to supply cheap manufacturing at better rates than the Chinese. Why do you think the Chinese themselves want a piece of that action?

Red Nissan

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh. No. Not going to happen. In one hundred years the Chinese won't be within spitting distance of making anywhere a province. Indeed I could even see China itself fracturing before that happens. Imagine a scenario where western nations think eh hang on lads, enough is enough and slap a trade embargo or punitive taxes

China fracturing is a very real alternative, trade embargoes will be met with missiles, though somewhat obsolete and lacking in expertise China had prepared herself to defend against and deliver nuclear exchanges to both the USA and the USSR ~ though she may be ineffective in actual combat, she is at least theoretically more powerful than the rest of the World combined.

She reminds us of that with her Air Craft Carrier programme and the reports of her building her own super carriers with 2015 a possible launch date. Whilst she has been denied technologies she has her own space programme, satellites, mini station and is more than capable of making her fleet battle ready retrofitting them herself.

ScumLord

losthorizon wrote: »

Excluding Zimbabwe and South Africa a few of the nations in Southern Africa are actually doing ok. There is actually growth in Africa but as you say if they could get rid of the corruption in most of the continent that would be a great step.

Best of luck to them, it's taken Europe centuries to get to our current level of corruption hopefully they can move faster in a modern world.

Wibbs wrote: »

They've previous with looking outward for a time, but it rarely lasts for very long. One emperor sent out a fleet of huge junks to map the known world, likely made it to Australia and the Americas before Europeans did. So one by one they came back reporting of the outside world and then they stopped and scuttled the ships in their harbours and looked inward again.

That was pretty bizarre, they were at the cusp of global empire and then decided to just not bother. I think it was probably their best chance at it, I don't think they currently have the ingenuity they had back then, their government has seen to eradicating that and despite their global presence they've really only got their toes in the water, I could see them slipping back into isolation at any time.

Red Nissan

ScumLord wrote: »

That was pretty bizarre, they were at the cusp of global empire and then decided to just not bother.

I doubt if Western minds could understand, and seemingly we don't have the reports either, were they also burnt with the fleet?

So we are left wondering if they reported that the rest of the world was occupied by monsters, vultures and undesirables.

Or maybe they have a precious secret and they decided the rest of the world was not ready for it's discovery.

They were more than capable of ruling the whole place, and they just did not. WTF? It is strange indeed.

Christ the Redeemer

Chinese investment in Africa is terrible. They should just build military bases like the yanks and carry out a phony war against muslims as a justification.

Red Nissan

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Chinese investment in Africa is terrible. They should just build military bases like the yanks and carry out a phony war against muslims as a justification.

I think the Yanks have the Muslims covered, Obama has put the world on a level 1, conflict imminent for August :rolleyes:

I think the Chinese should just built military bases and carry out a phony war against say Scientology or another sexy religion, or better yet, just invent a new super religion that only the Chinese can take down.

UCDVet

Red Nissan wrote: »

I'd have a concern that we should support nationalism. Taken to extreme, we'd see the Jew homeless again, the US returned to the Indian Nations repatriation on a global scale and embargoes, trade restrictions, and global thermonuclear war.

On the other hand the Chinese and Americans take over the two halves of the world and we still end up with global thermonuclear war.

The only way to win is not to play.

It's easy to point to the US and China - but I'd argue that Ireland isn't too different.

If the Irish government decides they have a need for your property - they can take it, by force. Oh sure, they'll 'write you a check' - but they can take it, and you can't stop it. And it's all legal.

It's the same thinking that the US used to justify taking the land of the Native Americans. They even signed legal documents.

AllGunsBlazing

Surely we're all culpable in this?

Where else are they going to source the raw materials to build the gadgets we demand and at a price we are willing to pay?

earlyevening

steddyeddy wrote: »

Rep of Congo. It's happening in Tanzania and Zimbabwe too aparantly. Pm me if you want to know more.

Chinese all over Ethiopia too. I've seen it.

kneemos

mikemac1 wrote: »

Niall Mellon township trust

Donate at the checkout of your local Dunnes or Tesco to send some 8 stone girl to Africa to build homes. I'm sure she is fit but is she fit enough to labour on a site in hot weather? Maybe. So donate to pay for her flights.

Meanwhile hard working local labourers get some employment but not all of the employment.

But isn't Niall Mellon a saint for doing this and all the while his developments charged full price to Irish buyers and now he is involved with NAMA

Often wondered about that,why don't they employ the locals to build the houses,the cost of the airfares would probably go a long ways out there.

Fox_In_Socks

kneemos wrote: »

Often wondered about that,why don't they employ the locals to build the houses,the cost of the airfares would probably go a long ways out there.

Hmmm...I think that they originally wanted to minimise the amount of money being siphoned off due to bribary/corrupption etc, but tbh, I don't see why an Irish person needs to physically build it. They could just oversee the distribution of money to the local labourers better.

ScumLord

kneemos wrote: »

Often wondered about that,why don't they employ the locals to build the houses,the cost of the airfares would probably go a long ways out there.

Because a starving African isn't as good at extracting money from mommy, daddy and the extended family as a whining teenage white girl. It's the money they're after, just like paying a high wage to a CEO is seen as worth it in the long run. Spending a lot of money flying out someone who wants to add "saved Africa" to their facebook status is worth it because they will generate enough money to finish the project.

It wouldn't surprise me if most of the work is done by the locals either way. Unless the people going over are getting a safe pass and have some labour skills I don't see them doing anything more dangerous than shoveling sand into a cement mixer. The charities wouldn't risk sending them home injured.

woodoo

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed. I find it funny that you can have anti American rhetoric and be thanked for it, yet generally China are a great bunch o lads. Yea this is a place that harvests organs from executed criminals and executes more of it's own people than any other nation on earth. This is a culture with a real imperial mindset. This is a place where the haves and have nots divide is growing exponentially. This is a place that doesn't give two hoots about pollution on an industrial scale, nor cares about it's own people so long as China keeps marching forward. A place where dissenters are silenced, even "disappeared". Yea we should be more like them alright. My arse.

And a place that is destroying the wildlife of Africa in pursuit of their silly potions.

Wibbs

Red Nissan wrote: »

China fracturing is a very real alternative, trade embargoes will be met with missiles, though somewhat obsolete and lacking in expertise China had prepared herself to defend against and deliver nuclear exchanges to both the USA and the USSR ~ though she may be ineffective in actual combat, she is at least theoretically more powerful than the rest of the World combined.

Not even close RN. The single largest organisation in the world is the US military. The largest air fleet in the world is the US air force. The second largest is the US Navy. If China was stupid enough to kick off at them and the Russians? There would be no quarter given and it would be Game Over for China. The Russians alone? Well if history tells us anything it's that you really don't want to fcuk with the Russians. And well they know it. Their posturing is more about local stuff.

She reminds us of that with her Air Craft Carrier programme and the reports of her building her own super carriers with 2015 a possible launch date. Whilst she has been denied technologies she has her own space programme, satellites, mini station and is more than capable of making her fleet battle ready retrofitting them herself.

All of the above are either loaned tech from the Russians over the years or blatant ripoffs of western tech. Sadly given their near unassailable history of previous innovation today they're peddling hand me downs for the most part.

ScumLord wrote: »

That was pretty bizarre, they were at the cusp of global empire and then decided to just not bother. I think it was probably their best chance at it, I don't think they currently have the ingenuity they had back then, their government has seen to eradicating that and despite their global presence they've really only got their toes in the water, I could see them slipping back into isolation at any time.

Red Nissan wrote: »

They were more than capable of ruling the whole place, and they just did not. WTF? It is strange indeed.

Again it helps to contextualise it by again thinking of them not as a country, but an empire. In that context and mindset they already had an empire and a huge one at that. The largest in sheer landmass. They also had little or no local competition for most of their history. Contrast that to Europe and the European long in the saddle mindset of conquest and empire building. Small countries looking to expand and conquer resources. I suspect if Rome had lasted as long as China you'd have seen a similar mindset set in and the Americas may have taken a few more centuries to find. There was much more pressure from local competition too. It even took out Rome itself. You had the "barbarians" and then after that the Muslim world. Europe has been competing internally and at a very intense level for nigh on 3000 years. All this drove innovation and technology and even a very martial mindset in Europe.

Take the example of the Mongols. Fierce fighters and highly mobile. They took China and to paraphrase a line applied to the Normans in Ireland they became more Chinese than the Chinese themselves. They took out the head and the body followed. Now imagine the Mongols had tried to take Europe. They did, but for various reasons it was a damp squib, but imagine those reasons weren't there and they tried the same as worked in China. Big problem. There isn't one head you can take out and claim Europe. There is no center to hold because there is no center in the first place. So you take out the Germans, then you're dealing with the French(the most successful land army in European history), if you take out them, then you have the Spaniards and the Dutch and the Portugese and the Brits and the Polish and Italians are chomping at your flanks and try hold the territory you've already conquered when the Russians see an opportunity to sweep down behind you with their own murderous hordes. Sorry Genghis you're fooked.

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Surely we're all culpable in this?

Where else are they going to source the raw materials to build the gadgets we demand and at a price we are willing to pay?

Indeed we are. We should be going direct to source and engage with the locals in a mutually beneficial way. Learn the lessons of history and build a mutually beneficial "empire" on trade, not near indentured slavery dressed up for the 21st century.

mikemac1 wrote: »

Niall Mellon township trust

Donate at the checkout of your local Dunnes or Tesco to send some 8 stone girl to Africa to build homes. I'm sure she is fit but is she fit enough to labour on a site in hot weather? Maybe. So donate to pay for her flights.

Meanwhile hard working local labourers get some employment but not all of the employment.

Yea good oul guilt tourism. I've known people who were very genuine in going out on such trips and fair play, but like you it would make me uncomfortable to say the least. Far better to sponsor some expert guys and gals to go out and show the locals how they might improve local building techniques and get them to sell stuff back to us. That we we build a customer base for each other and it's all good.

HandsomeJonny

I work 50% of the year in Beijing but don't live there. I could never live there. However I find China a fascinating country. The chinese people are wired completely different to us in the west. Our project is really difficult because the chinese colleagues are extremely inefficient and unable to come to a decision by themselves. You can't work with them on a peer level. They are like small children and need to be led. As someone said this is the way china has always been. It's an empire and the communist party is just the latest dynasty.

I also find some similarities to Ireland in China. For one they have a massive property bubble and accomodation in Beijing is insanely expensive. On the other hand I look out my window and can see in certain places empty sky scrapers. It's just a bit surreal. There is so much money in China now that it is incredible. It's common to see teenage girls driving ferrari's and other luxury cars. Chinese people now want everything big and new and better than before. They are making all the mistakes we made. Building huge shopping malls that are complete eyes sores. Like at San li tun or wangfujing but that is just two examples.

I think when the chinese economy crashes the impact it will have on the world as a whole will make the financial crisis of 2008 look like a drop in the ocean.

And China's pollution is incredible. After about 2 days in China you can feel it in your lungs. You have no energy. I was there last week. It was around 38% with very humid weather. That combined with the pollution and you can just feel your life expectancy decreasing.

China only cares about China. Maybe in the short term Africa will benefit but long term the Africas need to build an economy to sustain themselves if possible.

ScumLord

Wibbs wrote: »

Europe has been competing internally and at a very intense level for nigh on 3000 years. All this drove innovation and technology and even a very martial mindset in Europe.

I suppose, nothing drives innovation and greed like competition. I was only thinking about it last night watching a documentary on machu picchu, compared to Europe the south Americans were over 1000 years behind the technology curve but then those people had to deal with establishing themselves on two new continents while the middle east was settling down to farm.

dsmythy

Wibbs wrote: »

It seems that this time they will as anger and resentment is building up against the Chinese in a few places. I caught a programme on BBC2 a while back and the interviews with the Chinese ex pats in Tanzania(IIRC) were beyond cringeworthy. All they were short of were pith helmets and linens. Real 19th century thinking as far as the locals went.

Plus this time a lot of that continent is growing economically, the population is booming and education is increasing year by year. Now if a few nations kick off an African spring and boot out some of the corrupt bastards that have ruined their own people that would a major bonus.

I recall that (or a similar) documentary. The Chinese bosses thought of themselves as doing Africans a favour that they should be grateful for. When pushed as to what they thought of the Africans as workers 'lazy' seemed to be their preferred word.

losthorizon

Red Nissan wrote: »

I doubt if Western minds could understand, and seemingly we don't have the reports either, were they also burnt with the fleet?

So we are left wondering if they reported that the rest of the world was occupied by monsters, vultures and undesirables.

Its not long ago that the west felt like this as well. Maybe 500 years ago. Which is not so long in human terms.

I work for a Japanese company. Now, I'm not for important in my company but the Japs are supposed to be nice to visit when guys go over to Japan and will mix socially when the come over here.

We also have offshoots in the USA and China , Vietnam and Singapore (I think).

The Americans are mad drinkers. Management have said that the Chinese cities they have visited have been dives and they do a proccess in Vietnam which is outlawed in the EU for us.

Red Nissan

Wibbs wrote: »

Not even close RN. The single largest organisation in the world is the US military. The largest air fleet in the world is the US air force. The second largest is the US Navy. If China was stupid enough to kick off at them and the Russians?

The Russians are now a fraction of the force that China prepared to engage, and there is no friction there currently, North Korea is allegedly a different country armed with Chinese nuclear tipped artillery munitions.

The US air force could use and lose it's entire wing, even with nuclear weapons and still not impart enough damage to neutralise China. A land army with conventional and nuclear tipped weapons could and probably would emerge that the US could not counter.

If an exchange of ICBMs occured, and assuming China's worked, let alone hit their targets, the US would be obliterated, left with a nuclear submarine force and a navy with little or no carrier support.

Which is why Dong can mouth off so evocatively and threaten New York with nuclear obliteration, because he can do it. Or his cousin can, you know better than me the way China works.

It puts into perspective the real threat and the tom foolery that an invented non existent terrorist force can and cannot really do.

The one thing is time, the longer we go the less likely the Chinese weapons will even launch, whilst we know the US are maintaining their declared supply, Russia went broke and her fleet is ineffective and her nuclear deterrent is rusted away, the Chinese seemed to have done nothing.

Red Nissan

This is a racism comment, but it has been referred to already in this thread.

But many of the comments about the Africans v Chinese, that is what the Chinese are saying about their hosts are repeated on Cork Streets and Dublin Streets.

Whilst I don't think the Chinese invasion should succeed, there seems to be certain generalizations emerging and having watched the video link provided above, we could make that documentary in St Patrick's Street in the morning and get precisely that same comments.

We need to look at the global picture here, we can't all be saying the same things about the same ethnic groups.

Wibbs

losthorizon wrote: »

Its not long ago that the west felt like this as well. Maybe 500 years ago. Which is not so long in human terms.

True but Europe had so many killer apps that it was near a given it would streak ahead. We had the geography and the politics that stemmed from that. We had christianity, which was at once a unifying force(the continuation of Roman empire, only for the soul of Europe) but also allowed for separate development within Europe. Then we had the various plagues that both got people questioning heaven's authority and the status quo and kicked feudalism squarely in the nuts. We had a renaissance(actually more than one), then we had an enlightenment, which really revved up science. Not having just one centralised European culture also tended to mean we'd hoover up outside ideas and because of internal competition make them better.

Printing is a very good example of Europe being fertile ground for this stuff. Obviously it hit the Islamic world first, but because Arabic is so complex a text movable type is a bitch to accommodate. Plus the scribes/copyists were a powerful religious lobby so game over there and because it was an empire it was game over throughout said empire. The first printed Quran came from Russia and it was the 20th century before it was printed in the Islamic world in any numbers. So it hits Europe with it's simple alphabet, right in the middle of a religious and political internal spat and Whammo it goes stratospheric. European religious texts which were about the first thing to be printed. Then the arguments started and were printed and then other arguments started, then we had an explosion of knowledge in many languages, even down to daily flyers for your ordinary folks. This happened within the guts of 30 years too. If you're 20 today it's kinda hard to remember a world without this interweb, you kinda have to be 30 plus before that lack of same comes into focus. Well back in the day printing wasn't far off that. A 50 year old could recall a time before books and printed stuff everywhere*.

Red Nissan wrote:

The US air force could use and lose it's entire wing, even with nuclear weapons and still not impart enough damage to neutralise China.

I don't think you realise the sheer scale of the American war machine. The "war on terror" stuff is mostly a policing action with some constraints attached. An all out war? Jesus. The Yanks could bring to bear a level of utter murderous destruction that would beggar belief and one would hope and pray it never happens.

The land army wouldn't mean jack really. The Yanks would control the skies. Take an historical example. The French whipped England's butt so many times in land engagements it wasn't funny. "Remember Agincourt!" the Brits may say, but seem to forget they lost nearly every other battle of that war and lost the war itself. The Brits many years later won in the end because of superior sea power. The Yanks air power and ordinance delivery power is of a magnitude greater than anything the Chinese could muster on their best day. That would be the decider today.

I'd not rule out the Russians either. If China got even a little previous with those folks and their motherland, I'd not give them great odds. Consider a peacetime moment where the motherland was threatened. Chernobyl. When it went bang and the core was highly unstable and threatened to cause even more widespread catastrophe, tens of thousands of Russian men and women volunteered to go into the molten core to help dig it out. To a certain death. We may joke about the meme "in Russia X fcuks you", but it has more than a kernal of truth. They are hard buggers. Without them Godwinning a thread would have no meaning(see what I did there )).

We need to look at the global picture here, we can all be saying the same things about the same ethnic groups.

Oh most certainly yes RN. It's an all too easy and convenient trap to fall into too. However and it's only IMHO, I think you can draw with a broad brush some cultural differences between different parts of the world and how these diffs may impact larger social, geographical, economic and political changes over time.




*aside; interestingly Leo da Vinci didn't dig printing one little bit and he was living in the crucible of the new tech. He refused to publish his works and his only foray into the new tech was knocking up a frontispiece for book written by a good mate of his, who twisted his arm over a few vinos(he was well liked as a bloke who'd give a mate a dig out). Imagine today, someone like I dunno Steve Hawking(only a brainiac across ten disciplines) who didn't have email or a computer.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Imagine a scenario where western nations think eh hang on lads, enough is enough and slap a trade embargo or punitive taxes(and they wouldn't have to be that punitive to have an effect) on Chinese made goods. Pretty much game over for China and her export market.

And what'll it do to western economies?

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

killer apps

Please. No.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

And what'll it do to western economies?

Likely reinvigorate them after a period of WTF. IMHO for too long the western economies have concentrated on the abstract money markets and quarterly reports, ever looking for a way to make money from money and too much of that money was ephemeral. Let's get back to making the stuff that is imagined and designed in the "west". Put it another way, where would China et al be if those innovations and designs never happened. Nowhere, that's where.

Deleted User wrote: »

Please. No.

I know, I know, please don't hate me. :D