"Don't feed the Trolls"

Morag · 03-08-2013 07:14PM #1

http://sianandcrookedrib.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/i-wont-apologise-for-not-getting-joke.html?m=1

Just ignore them. Don’t feed the trolls. That’s what they say.

But, you see, when 5,000 of my UK sisters are raped every month, a man telling a woman that he is going to come to her house and rape her at 9pm that night simply isn’t funny. When two of my UK sisters are murdered every week, a man telling a woman that he has planted a bomb designed to kill her outside her house is, actually, a real threat.

When every day I fear I will be harassed, groped, assaulted; men calling me a slag and a bitch and a slut isn’t funny. When I’ve sat there with friends or in discussion groups and heard women disclose the violence committed against them; men telling rape survivors that they’re going to rape them again isn’t funny. When I name the assaults that happened to me as sexual assault; men saying they hope I get kicked in the vagina, they hope I get raped, isn’t funny.

We have to take these threats seriously because as women, we know they are serious. We know that there are thousands of men raping women every month. We know there are over a million men abusing their partners every year. We know that every single day these threats made online are enacted, in fact, offline. They are committed against the women around us. Maybe to us.

So forgive me for taking it seriously.

So there has been a fair bit in the new about the type of sexist abuse which women face on the internet.

Have you ever had sexist abuse or threats?
Do you laugh them off or have you taken them seriously?
Is it easier to do so from a stranger?
If you know the person is it harder?

lazygal · 03-08-2013 07:20PM

In another forum on boards I post on a moderator made a comment on a thread that a female public commentator needed a good seeing to with a dildo in light of her making offensive remarks. I was really taken aback and reported it at the time. The poster always came across as a decent, relatively well informed guy (and I know it was a guy) so it kind of made me do a double take that the go to response to a woman making remarks you don't agree with was to suggest there was a problem with her sexual life. I rarely seem to see the same logic applied to men, that they need a good shag.

I find in other forums the distain and distrust of women, anything to do with women's rights and the sense of men being really hard done by in today's world is barely concealed, and sometimes not concealed at all. I like boards, but I find it a very sexist environment sometimes.

I post on another US based chat site regularly and I don't see the same level of distain for women as I do on here sometimes. Here not being TLL but boards in general.

clairefontaine · 03-08-2013 07:32PM

lazygal wrote: »

In another forum on boards I post on a moderator made a comment on a thread that a female public commentator needed a good seeing to with a dildo in light of her making offensive remarks. I was really taken aback and reported it at the time. The poster always came across as a decent, relatively well informed guy (and I know it was a guy) so it kind of made me do a double take that the go to response to a woman making remarks you don't agree with was to suggest there was a problem with her sexual life. I rarely seem to see the same logic applied to men, that they need a good shag.

I find in other forums the distain and distrust of women, anything to do with women's rights and the sense of men being really hard done by in today's world is barely concealed, and sometimes not concealed at all. I like boards, but I find it a very sexist environment sometimes.

I post on another US based chat site regularly and I don't see the same level of distain for women as I do on here sometimes. Here not being TLL but boards in general.

Do you put that difference down to a difference in culture or a difference in how the two sites are regulated?

TeletextPear · 03-08-2013 07:42PM

I've never had twitter threats myself (I have my account set up so people have to be approved before they can follow me) but I think I'd just try to block and move on if people were threatening. Most of the time it's just some ass who wouldn't say boo to you in real life acting the hard man (or woman) because it's anonymous. I read a good article on it recently:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/colette-browne-dont-give-trolls-satisfaction-of-reacting-to-their-online-venom-29455610.html

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 07:56PM

While of course such bile should not just be allowed to fester, I do think people need to keep remembering that there are people who use the internet for writing things they wouldn't dream of saying/doing in real life.
The important thing IMO is not to react, because that is what they are looking for, and report.

freshpopcorn · 03-08-2013 07:58PM

This stuff can happen to men just as easy as it can happen to women in the same way or in different ways!

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 08:10PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

This stuff can happen to men just as easy as it can happen to women in the same way or in different ways!

No, rape/sexual violence threats and gendered abuse do NOT happen to men as much.

And even if they did, what's the purpose of your comment? Does it change the fact it happens to women?

This particular discussion is about women, on a women's forum - what actual value does the "contribution" that it happens to men also have?

If you are concerned about it happening to men, start a thread on it in The Gentlemen's Club or Humanities?

Or... is it just you wanting to have a bit of an auld whataboutery/one-upmanship session? This sh1t is like a ****ing epidemic.

freshpopcorn · 03-08-2013 08:21PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

No, rape/sexual violence threats and gendered abuse do NOT happen to men as much.

This is a reason why a lot of men don't talk about sexual abuse/assault because of attitudes like this. It doesn't happen to men really. Well it does.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

And even if they did, what's the purpose of your comment? Does it change the fact it happens to women?

No, it doesn't but it doesn't change the fact that it happens to women but it also doesn't change the fact that it happens to men.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

This particular discussion is about women, on a women's forum - what actual value does the "contribution" that it happens to men also have?

I was just highlighting that it is a problem that men experience as well in their lives as well as women.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

If you are concerned about it happening to men, start a thread on it in The Gentlemen's Club or Humanities?

I will consider taking your advise.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Or... is it just you wanting to have a bit of an auld whataboutery/one-upmanship session? This sh1t is like a ****ing epidemic.

It is not. I was just highlighting the point that abuse of any forum can happen to both men and women. Their is also no need to use bad language to get your point across.

banquo · 03-08-2013 08:24PM

Not to turn this into a "Who's less equal'' thread, but no, threats of violence - and, you know, actual violence - happen more to men, online and in real life.

The perpetrators of these threats are assholes, no doubt about that. But that's what the Block button, the security options to not be able to receive messages or mentions from anyone who don't approve, and the Report Spam button are for. And now the new Report Abuse button.

What bothers me is that we're pretending that this issue affects one gender only or even in significantly higher numbers than the other, when it doesn't and it never has.

A lady on Sky News today said that ''We have to take threats of violence very seriously, especially threats against women". Actual quote.

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 08:24PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

This is a reason why a lot of men don't talk about sexual abuse/assault because of attitudes like this. It doesn't happen to men really.

Nope, I did not say whatsoever that it doesn't happen to men. It does, but not as much as it happens to women, which is what you waltzed in here to say.
And actually, some of the very people who make it difficult for men to talk about experiencing sexual assault... are men.

I was just highlighting that it is a problem that men experience as well in their lives as well as women.

But we know that, and have compassion for those men (unlike a lot of their "brothers") however this discussion, on a women's forum, is about it happening to women.

shleedance · 03-08-2013 08:25PM

Trolling is people doing it for pure shock value, rather than outputting their true views on the matter. Online, it really is advised to ignore trolling for such reasons.

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 08:30PM

banquo wrote: »

Not to turn this into a "Who's less equal'' thread, but no, threats of violence - and, you know, actual violence - happen more to men, online and in real life.

The perpetrators of these threats are assholes, no doubt about that. But that's what the Block button, the security options to not be able to receive messages or mentions from anyone who don't approve, and the Report Spam button are for. And now the new Report Abuse button.

What bothers me is that we're pretending that this issue affects one gender only or even in significantly higher numbers than the other, when it doesn't and it never has.

Nope, you're the one pretending this thread is about violence in general.

It is specifically about sexual violence threats.

It's absolutely true, men are threatened more with violence like being beaten up, and it actually happens to them too. One of the things that struck me about a recent house break-in by masked raiders was the way the father was beaten with an iron-bar and a rifle butt - it really drove home that men are very vulnerable in these situations because they are the ones who are expected to have the physical stamina for these kinds of attacks, and it made me scared thinking about my brothers and dad.

But I wouldn't be so obnoxious as to walk into the Gentlemen's Club where there's a discussion on same and yell "Well women get threatened with being beaten up too you know!" :rolleyes:

And in such a situation as the above, the woman would be more at risk of being raped.

Hermione* · 03-08-2013 08:30PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

This stuff can happen to men just as easy as it can happen to women in the same way or in different ways!

banquo wrote: »

Not to turn this into a "Who's less equal'' thread, but no, threats of violence - and, you know, actual violence - happen more to men, online and in real life.

The perpetrators of these threats are assholes, no doubt about that. But that's what the Block button, the security options to not be able to receive messages or mentions from anyone who don't approve, and the Report Spam button are for. And now the new Report Abuse button.

What bothers me is that we're pretending that this issue affects one gender only or even in significantly higher numbers than the other, when it doesn't and it never has.

A lady on Sky News today said that ''We have to take threats of violence very seriously, especially threats against women". Actual quote.

MOD:
As per the Charter: tLL is also not the place for men to respond to a thread on a women's point of view with "what about men?", this is considered "whataboutery" and off topic posting. If you want to discuss such subjects there are other forums on Boards where you can.

Please acquaint yourselves with the Charter before posting again in the Forum.

Hermione*

freshpopcorn · 03-08-2013 08:36PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Nope, I did not say whatsoever that it doesn't happen to men. It does, but not as much as it happens to women, which is what you waltzed in here to say.

What I actually said is It is just as easy for it to happen to men as well as women. It could happen to a lot of men and women so you'll never know the really static.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

And actually, some of the very people who make it difficult for men to talk about experiencing sexual assault... are men.
But we know that, and have compassion for those men (unlike a lot of their "brothers") however this discussion, on a women's forum, is about it happening to women.

This you now you generalizing men as not being able to deal with serious issues and I consider it very offensive.

I would like to say we have different views on the matter and I consider abuse to effect everyone as do you. I will be unsubscribing to this thread because this conversation could go on for the night but I wish ye all the best.

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 08:39PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

What I actually said is It is just as easy for it to happen to men as well as women. It could happen to a lot of men and women so you'll never know the really static.

Look at wars - who gets raped more? It's a simple reality - women are more at risk of being raped. For a man to feel that that is an unequal view of the genders... well that is one scary attitude. Are the anti feminist crowd REALLY venturing into that territory of questioning who is more likely to be raped...?

This you now you generalizing men as not being able to deal with serious issues and I consider it very offensive.

You can read what you like into it but that is not what I said. I didn't say anything about men in general being xyz. I said some men feel uncomfortable with discussing being sexually assaulted by a woman (probably should have emphasised that) because of the attitudes from some men, which is again, a reality.

banquo · 03-08-2013 08:41PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Nope, you're the one pretending this thread is about violence in general.

It is specifically about sexual violence threats.

It's absolutely true, men are threatened more with violence like being beaten up, and it actually happens to them too. One of the things that struck me about a recent house break-in by masked raiders was the way the father was beaten with an iron-bar and a rifle butt - it really drove home that men are very vulnerable in these situations because they are the ones who are expected to have the physical stamina for these kinds of attacks, and it made me scared thinking about my brothers and dad.

But I wouldn't be so obnoxious as to walk into the Gentlemen's Club where there's a discussion on same and yell "Well women get threatened with being beaten up too you know!" :rolleyes:

And in such a situation as the above, the woman would be more at risk of being raped.

If you include sexual assault in prisons, then the genders of victims are almost equal.

But I love how 83% of murders are male, more than two thirds of regular assaults are against men, about half of sexual assaults are against men, but a female gets threats of sexual assault over Twitter and suddenly it's something worth getting angry about.

Hermione* · 03-08-2013 08:43PM

Mod:

Please do not engage with whataboutery with posters. Where it happens, it will be actioned. Please do not allow it to derail the thread.

Banquo, please take heed of my warning above or you will be banned from the thread, if you cannot post as per the Charter.

Thanks. As you were, so.

Hermione*

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 08:45PM

banquo wrote: »

If you include sexual assault in prisons, then the genders of victims are almost equal.

But I love how 83% of murders are male, more than two thirds of regular assaults are against men, about half of sexual assaults are against men, but a female gets threats of sexual assault over Twitter and suddenly it's something worth getting angry about.

The word is "woman". Is it not possible to get angry about them all? We're talking about gendered violence and threats here - something people experience because of their gender.
Where are you getting the "about half of sexual assaults are against men" from?

03-08-2013 08:58PM

banquo wrote: »

If you include sexual assault in prisons, then the genders of victims are almost equal.

But I love how 83% of murders are male, more than two thirds of regular assaults are against men, about half of sexual assaults are against men, but a female gets threats of sexual assault over Twitter and suddenly it's something worth getting angry about.

Not again.

I just can't be bothered reading or dealing with this stuff any
more today. It's just relentless.

fits · 03-08-2013 09:03PM

IT is relentless. And destroys so many threads in tLL. I dont bother posting on a lot of these threads anymore. So sick of it.

meeeeh · 03-08-2013 09:05PM

I'm on another a lot less pc male dominated forum (created by computer, gaming and similar mag) and I was told on some football or F1 forums quite a few times that women haven't got a clue, go back to the kitchen and similar. They are easy to deal with, after a while you are able to judge who is just an idiot and who is joking. I don't mind that kind of jokes if I can see that they take me seriously otherwise.

However I did get a lot nastier abuse and threats of rape from some spotty wannabe marxist poster. I wasn't overly complimentary about his political views and after that my mail box was full of abuse. I'm probably socially liberal and conservative in my economic views (in European context) so I usually zig zag on which side I am. Most of the gender based insults come from leftist posters that would in another thread proclaim their support for women, gay or whatever rights. I don't have any special knowledge or talents but I can put together a decent insult in a sentence or two. So yea I do feed the trolls.

I don't use report button often mostly only for people who are trying to advertise or sell something.

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 09:09PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Most of the gender based insults come from leftist posters that would in another thread proclaim their support for women's gay or whatever rights.

This is something I've noticed too.

jill_valentine · 03-08-2013 09:11PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

While of course such bile should not just be allowed to fester, I do think people need to keep remembering that there are people who use the internet for writing things they wouldn't dream of saying/doing in real life.
The important thing IMO is not to react, because that is what they are looking for, and report.

That works for 99% of trolls, and it's always the best advice, but I know from experience of modding on other sites, that actually, there are some particular creeps for whom it really does have no effect at all. That 1% who are the ones worth worrying about will literally never, ever stop unless they start fixating on something else or something happens in their real life that's big enough to disrupt their behaviour. It doesn't matter that nobody ever responds, doesn't matter how many times they're banned, they keep coming back, pouring an enormous amount of energy into posting something gross under different proxies to no discernable end.

Invariably, those types have some serious stuff obviously wrong in how they communicate, their typing style tends to be quite strange even apart from the subject matter, but I don't think I've ever encountered one who wasn't fixated on either race or women (particularly feminists or lesbians), for whatever reason.

meeeeh · 03-08-2013 09:22PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

This is something I've noticed too.

Yeah I don't know why. That being said a lot of general forums probably have left wing bias (in numbers) or at least leftist posters tend to be younger, immature and more likely to act like idiots. The guy I mentioned above is now perfectly well behaved so I guess couple of years in real world away from mummy's cooking helped.

Femme_Fatale · 03-08-2013 09:26PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Yeah I don't know why. That being said a lot of general forums probably have left wing bias (in numbers) or at least leftist posters tend to be younger, immature and more likely to act like idiots.

And even though chivalrous, more "traditional" etc kinda guys are deemed sexist/chauvinistic in some quarters (probably only by extremists to be fair) they never seem to have a crappy attitude towards women.
I definitely think a handful of guys who claim to be all concerned about women's rights are (a) trying to get into knickers, and (b) hiding a far less appetising attitude.

banquo · 03-08-2013 09:41PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I definitely think a handful of guys who claim to be all concerned about women's rights are (a) trying to get into knickers, and (b) hiding a far less appetising attitude.

*meekly* I always thought this too about some of the extremists out there but never said it out loud because I've never heard anyone else say it and thought it might be up there with ''Queen Elizabeth is a lizard."

Sulla Felix · 03-08-2013 10:31PM

I think part of the problem is that it's very hard to differentiate between the different types of people who make threats like this.

Person A says I hope you're raped, I put a bomb under your car etc. Person A is a troll. They're looking for a reaction. They're hoping the target freaks out, goes to the papers, starts screaming on twitter etc.
Ignoring Person A is the right tactic.

Person B says I hope you're raped, I put a bomb under your car etc. Person B is a lunatic who honestly holds these convictions. They may or may not also be a troll looking for a reaction, but really, it's that they honestly hold these convictions that's the worrying thing, because Person B is quite capable of carrying out an illegal act because in their mind it would be justified.
Drawing attention to Person B via the appropriate channels is the right tactic.

Distinguishing the two is difficult, and I don't envy their targets the task. It's very much a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of scenario. For the police too, give it a few years and it'll emerge that some suspected rapist or murderer spent time on the internet abusing people, and there'll be an uproar about why they didn't take the threats seriously.

Morag · 03-08-2013 10:54PM

The thing is as the threads here about sexual assulat have shown and the thread about guys not taking the hint or no for an answer when in bars, most women will have had stressful encounters in real life and there is a reason why discussions have trigger warnings on them.

It's all well and good to day sure no one would do that, when many women have had people do such things to them and so what seems empty threats to some will not always feel that way to women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4LkrQCyIz8

Sulla Felix · 03-08-2013 11:08PM

Morag wrote: »

The thing is as the threads here about sexual assulat have shown and the thread about guys not taking the hint or no for an answer when in bars, most women will have had stressful encounters in real life and there is a reason why discussions have trigger warnings on them.

It's all well and good to day sure no one would do that, when many women have had people do such things to them and so what seems empty threats to some will not always feel that way to women.

I don't think anyone is saying "sure no one would do that", since, it's pretty well documented that some people sure will do that. The empty threats and the actual threats are impossible to differentiate. That in itself is a source of stress. Generally people deal better with certainty, even if the certainty is a certainty of a bad thing.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but the point I was trying to make that the optimal action will be different depending on the offenders motive for making the attack, and it's not easy to discern which action to take.
Optimal action being that which will reduce the future likelihood of the target being attacked further.

meeeeh · 03-08-2013 11:11PM

I think it's a lot easier to decide how serious the threat is if you know the age of the idiot. It also depends a lot on the nature of the threat, how frequent it is and so on. All threats are annoying but not all of them are scary.

efb · 03-08-2013 11:13PM

I often am surprised by the glib way that 'rape' and sexism is bandied about this site. I think women take far to much abuse on this site. It stopped for a while but it's back now.

"Don't feed the Trolls"

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