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Have you ever been to a Brothel

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Comments

  • #422
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Yes of course it was, and because you were able to do your research about the sources of that article, to be honest I was hoping you'd reply with "Yes I have read the studies and reports that Soupmonster linked to actually, AND I've read that thread that you keep linking to!".

    See for me it's not about who's right or wrong, I only care about people being more informed, so that they can indeed make up their own minds when they are fully informed. For me it's not an academic discussion, it's more than that, we're talking about people, not just the one off anecdotal "I know someone who did well out of sex work so they're all doing great out of sex work so lets allow it because a country with a totally different culture and attitude in society says it's ok!".

    No they didn't, and if you were ever speaking to any Dutch people you'd quickly realise they're sick of the sex and drug tourists.

    Really? Wasn't there another thread about this where there were a couple of actual sex workers who gave their accounts and were happy doing their work, yet you tried to keep contradicting them and telling them otherwise?


  • #423
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    Really? Wasn't there another thread about this where there were a couple of actual sex workers who gave their accounts and were happy doing their work, yet you tried to keep contradicting them and telling them otherwise?


    You mean this one?


    Exclusion of Sex Workers from the Justice Committee.


    I wasn't and wouldn't tell anyone what to think, but that thread was started by a sex worker who made or two contributions at the start of the thread and fcuked off when challenged. A foreign sex worker came on the thread then, fcuked off, and then another sex worker came on and said she'd never met an unhappy sex worker and they all loved their jobs, etc, painting a romanticised picture of the Belle du Jour lifestyle, and I was offering a different perspective from my experience.

    I had a great discussion with CK and there was lots of good information and opinions and different points of view came out of that thread. Like I said- it was more important to me that people were informed rather than who was right or wrong,


  • #424
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You mean this one?


    Exclusion of Sex Workers from the Justice Committee.


    I wasn't and wouldn't tell anyone what to think, but that thread was started by a sex worker who made or two contributions at the start of the thread and fcuked off when challenged. A foreign sex worker came on the thread then, fcuked off, and then another sex worker came on and said she'd never met an unhappy sex worker and they all loved their jobs, etc, painting a romanticised picture of the Belle du Jour lifestyle, and I was offering a different perspective from my experience.

    I had a great discussion with CK and there was lots of good information and opinions and different points of view came out of that thread. Like I said- it was more important to me that people were informed rather than who was right or wrong,

    Yeah that's the one. I thought CK's posts were very informative and it was nice to hear from an intelligent woman who had chosen this profession and was happy enough to do it and didn't seem to have any hang ups about it. It just seemed like you were baffled by that and couldn't accept that a woman could be happy doing that sort of work, but maybe I picked you up wrong.

    I thought it was an interesting discussion all the same and probably the best thread on this topic.


  • #425
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    Yeah that's the one. I thought CK's posts were very informative and it was nice to hear from an intelligent woman who had chosen this profession and was happy enough to do it and didn't seem to have any hang ups about it. It just seemed like you were baffled by that and couldn't accept that a woman could be happy doing that sort of work, but maybe I picked you up wrong.

    I thought it was an interesting discussion all the same and probably the best thread on this topic.


    Picked me up wrong Dave I'd say. You should read back through the thread again to see that it wasn't her decision, her career choice, or her lifestyle I had any issue with, it was the fact that she was perpetuating myths and basically trying to say that just because she'd never met anyone who didn't enjoy their work, these people don't exist.


  • #426
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Originally Posted by SoupMonster
    In Amsterdam, the general consensus is that 60% to 80% of prostitutes in the highly visible de Wallen windows are trafficked or otherwise pimped or forced.

    Two questions.

    1. Who exactly is party to this 'general consensus' ?

    2. How did they go about determining that 60%-80% figure?

    Also if you're asking folks to 'think for themselves', it strikes me as a little off that you wouldn't apply the same standard to establishing the veracity of the statement you've made above. You appear to have accepted a rather vague and wooly assertion (attributed to no one), as something conclusive.
    Hendrik Wagenaar, former associate Professor at the Department of Public Administration at Leiden University:

    Prostitution policy is also plagued by bad numbers. There are lots of bad numbers based on wild estimates. They say there are millions of victims of trafficking in Europe, but no one has ever counted them.

    The whole prostitution debate is driven by emotional numbers, as I tend to call them. We counted the number of illegal prostitutes in Rotterdam, and numbers really were not that high. Each one is one too many, do not get me wrong, but the numbers are not that dramatic. We have about 400 cases of trafficking per year in The Netherlands. A lot of people say that this is just the tip of the iceberg, but no one has ever shown the iceberg, or proven that it exists.

    I have heard things like ‘more money is made in trafficking worldwide, than in the drug trade and arms trade combined.’ That is complete baloney. Really. You don’t make that much money in trafficking. But it is that kind of stupidity that drives the discourse.

    It's an interesting and accessible interview, providing considerably more detail on the problems present in De Wallen & the City authorities historical failure to adequately address same.

    http://www.eukn.org/Interviews/Archi...arged%E2%80%9D


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  • #427
    Red Nissan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭Red Nissan


    Jimminy Mc Fukhead wrote: »
    and you were full of come.

    Come get me quick after 15 pints of Guinness I am still able to cxx!

    Now, 50 years later it takes three weeks of training and 15 packets of Viagra :)


  • #428
    Red Nissan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭Red Nissan


    To brothel or not to brothel. Used to dream about my dad bringing me to one to teach me the facts of life, sadly he passed away before that happened.

    Then at my 50th wedding anniversary by wife asked me what I wanted and I asked her to book me into a brothel for one night, she bought me a nice shirt and tie without flinching an eyelid.


  • #429
    Peetrik
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭Peetrik


    Red Nissan wrote: »
    Then at my 50th wedding anniversary by wife asked me what I wanted and I asked her to book me into a brothel for one night, she bought me a nice shirt and tie without flinching an eyelid.

    ... to wear to the Brothel?


  • #430
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    See for me it's not about who's right or wrong, I only care about people being more informed, so that they can indeed make up their own minds when they are fully informed. For me it's not an academic discussion, it's more than that, we're talking about people, not just the one off anecdotal "I know someone who did well out of sex work so they're all doing great out of sex work so lets allow it because a country with a totally different culture and attitude in society says it's ok!".

    No they didn't, and if you were ever speaking to any Dutch people you'd quickly realise they're sick of the sex and drug tourists.

    I've spent a considerable amount of time in the Netherlands since 2008 & would like to think I've a reasonable, if far from comprehensive, understanding of the place and its people. I still find my Dutch friends and colleagues something of an enigma, well capable of going against one's pre-conceived notions of how you might think they'd approach any particular subject. As such, I'd honestly find it hard to chime with what you've said above, as it's just too much of a generalisation for me.

    As for the broader point, the subject of the thread & others like it are naturally of huge interest to you, given your personal and professional experience within the field. It's not everyone's hobby-horse however & this over-zealous, almost hectoring insistence that folks must do their homework in order to have their opinions considered valid is a little tired. Informing oneself can never be a bad thing for sure, but folks are gonna contribute here based on opinion, observation, life experience or hell, even gut instinct.

    If they happen to be factually incorrect, by all means point that out to them. It's incontrovertibly one of those areas of public policy where hard data is fiendishly difficult to collate and harder still to draw definitive conclusions from. Different countries, different set of circumstances etc.

    Both sides of this debate could back up their own opinion with myriad studies which present a cogent counter-argument to that presented by the other side. That'll understandably prove a huge turn-off for many however & assuredly discourage them from engaging in a discussion on-thread. No doubt the handful remaining would be better informed though.


  • #431
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    I've spent a considerable amount of time in the Netherlands since 2008 & would like to think I've a reasonable, if far from comprehensive, understanding of the place and its people. I still find my Dutch friends and colleagues something of an enigma, well capable of going against one's pre-conceived notions of how you might think they'd approach any particular subject. As such, I'd honestly find it hard to chime with what you've said above, as it's just too much of a generalisation for me.


    That's fair enough Yamato, I've always said on any subject that people's opinions are going to differ depending on who you talk to.

    As for the broader point, the subject of the thread & others like it are naturally of huge interest to you, given your personal and professional experience within the field. It's not everyone's hobby-horse however & this over-zealous, almost hectoring insistence that folks must do their homework in order to have their opinions considered valid is a little tired. Informing oneself can never be a bad thing for sure, but folks are gonna contribute here based on opinion, observation, life experience or hell, even gut instinct.


    Actually if you look through both threads, you'll see the only over-zealous posters are those who banded together and ganged up to try and drown out anyone whose opinion disagreed with theirs. I'm all for the more opinions the better, and tbh I had hoped in that other thread we would see contributions from more current and former sex workers and those thinking about getting into sex work. Where are the three sex workers that contributed to that thread now? They're gone, I'm still here, the issue isn't going away either.

    If they happen to be factually incorrect, by all means point that out to them. It's incontrovertibly one of those areas of public policy where hard data is fiendishly difficult to collate and harder still to draw definitive conclusions from. Different countries, different set of circumstances etc.

    Both sides of this debate could back up their own opinion with myriad studies which present a cogent counter-argument to that presented by the other side. That'll understandably prove a huge turn-off for many however & assuredly discourage them from engaging in a discussion on-thread. No doubt the handful remaining would be better informed though.


    There will be more people reading that thread than will ever contribute to it. It ranks high in Google searches ("sex work justice committee"), I've never tried to control who could and couldn't contribute to the thread, and I've never started threads on this issue, so accusations of hobby horsing are never gonna wash. I've got plenty of other interests besides sex work.


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  • #432
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    There will be more people reading that thread than will ever contribute to it. It ranks high in Google searches ("sex work justice committee")

    That's undoubtedly so Czarcasm, though I'd be unsure they're sticking with it start to finish.

    From a personal perspective, I find threads enormously hard work when they become a vehicle for a set of posters to dig in for a protracted spat. A little like watching two politicians on Primetime insisting their opponents figures are incorrect, my patience wears thin & I tune out.

    It's significantly easier to be a poster than a reader in such a scenario, I tend to find.


  • #433
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    That's undoubtedly so Czarcasm, though I'd be unsure they're sticking with it start to finish.

    From a personal perspective, I find threads enormously hard work when they become a vehicle for a set of posters to dig in for a protracted spat. A little like watching two politicians on Primetime insisting their opponents figures are incorrect, my patience wears thin & I tune out.

    It's significantly easier to be a poster than a reader in such a scenario, I tend to find.


    Everybody's different Yamato, I could read through a 3,000 post thread and never contribute, or I could read through a three page thread and never contribute, one like this one for instance ;)

    Like any activity really - some people like to participate, some people prefer to sit back and watch. Sometimes it just depends on the mood :D


  • #434
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    Specialun wrote: »
    Have you ever been to a brothel?

    Yesterday I went into a massage place as I have done to perhaps 10 other similar places in the past month. I came out of a brothel, unfortunately.

    I'm carrying bags around a lot and just feel the weight on me so a massage is relief. Nothing more than that. It was an established massage parlour on the main street, and had many people on the ground floor getting foot massages. i googled it and it was recommended and was part of a chain run by "western owners". My partner, whom I love very much, remained downstairs getting a foot massage and I was brought to another room for the full massage (as is normal). Two flights of stairs later (not so normal) and I came to a room with roughly 15 mattresses on the floor, with a dim wall light lighting the long room up. There was nobody else there. I started to get uncomfortable, especially when she refused to turn on the main light. Long story short, the person involved tried in on with me and I felt genuinely shocked, said no thanks, and persisted through her pleadings (very extreme, which made things worse than they should have been) to escape. I felt yuck after it and genuinely disturbed, a sentiment I rarely experience. It's still on my mind today. I just hadn't the appetite for a massage this evening, although my body could do with it.


  • #435
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Czarcasm wrote: »

    No they didn't, and if you were ever speaking to any Dutch people you'd quickly realise they're sick of the sex and drug tourists.



    I am sorry, this is bollox. Dutch people are fairly pragmatic and hard to ruffle. They know how much money come from those tourists.

    I work right in the middle of the main red light district, and live in the middle of the smaller one in Amsterdam. the article you posted is completely at odds with my experience here, and with what I glean from speaking with the prostitutes that come to me as customers.


  • #436
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    I am sorry, this is bollox. Dutch people are fairly pragmatic and hard to ruffle. They know how much money come from those tourists.

    I work right in the middle of the main red light district, and live in the middle of the smaller one in Amsterdam. the article you posted is completely at odds with my experience here, and with what I glean from speaking with the prostitutes that come to me as customers.


    Well like I said BR - it depends on who you talk to. It's complete bollocks to you because you just haven't experienced it yet, but just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean they don't exist.


  • #437
    Red Nissan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,055 ✭✭✭Red Nissan


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    I work right in the middle of the main red light district, and live in the middle of the smaller one in Amsterdam. the article you posted is completely at odds with my experience here, and with what I glean from speaking with the prostitutes that come to me as customers.

    That would be your perspective, one cannot argue with eye witness accounts and so on, however, more and more tourist, travel and experience programmes, mostly Internet channels or blog posts, seem to show two worlds where a lot of Dutch would prefer a change and if the tourists came to see the flowers instead of the weed and seede.

    It might be incorrect and it might be agenda propaganda from some Christian funded church, but a perception is portrayed of a country and Amsterdam especially divided but not in conflict.


  • #438
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Well like I said BR - it depends on who you talk to. It's complete bollocks to you because you just haven't experienced it yet, but just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean they don't exist.


    I speak with Dutch people everyday, I have never spoken to anyone in Amsterdam that is against the drug/sex tourism.

    I'd say I spend a lot more time here than the person who wrote the article you posted. Unless we can get a few prostitutes to reply here, my experience is as valid as any...


  • #439
    SoupMonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 147 ✭✭SoupMonster


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    Two questions.
    1. Who exactly is party to this 'general consensus' ?
    2. How did they go about determining that 60%-80% figure?
    ....
    http://www.eukn.org/Interviews/Archi...arged%E2%80%9D

    Probably should have said the general consensus seems to be ...

    I've seem that figure again and again in quotes from politicians, including the (former?) Mayor, in news reports. As for the veracity:-

    The figures go all the way back to 2005, when a number of reports highlighted the abuses in prostitution. The most famous being "Making the Invisible Visible", by Karina Schaapman (herself a former prostitute) and Amma Asante of the Labour Party.

    The figure 60 to 80% seems to come from criminologist Frank Bovenkerk who researched the abuses in prostitution at the request of the city council of Amsterdam. He estimated that the majority of women in the Red Light District are forced into prostitution.

    In response to this outrageous accusation Mariska Majoor, a former prostitute who runs an information center at De Wallen, countered that no more than twenty percent were working behind the windows involuntarily.

    If you really want to see how he went about getting the figures, what definition he used for "forced" Frank Bovenkerk is your man.

    Your link was truncated, can you repost?


  • #440
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    I speak with Dutch people everyday, I have never spoken to anyone in Amsterdam that is against the drug/sex tourism.

    I'd say I spend a lot more time here than the person who wrote the article you posted. Unless we can get a few prostitutes to reply here, my experience is as valid as any...


    I wouldn't discount anyone's experience or opinion bodice ripper, so where yourself and Yamato are getting that idea is beyond me.

    Having said that, would you be prepared to entertain the opinion of Karina Content, a former sex worker herself, former member of the Amsterdam municipal councill, and member of the Dutch Labour party who are now looking at implementing the Swedish model in the Netherlands to deal with sex work?


  • #441
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    SoupMonster wrote: »
    The figures go all the way back to 2005, when a number of reports highlighted the abuses in prostitution. The most famous being "Making the Invisible Visible", by Karina Schaapman (herself a former prostitute) and Amma Asante of the Labour Party.

    I was going to link to that report, but it's in Dutch, so only a few of us here might be able to read it, and I can't find an English translation, but here it is anyway for anyone that's interested -

    http://www.prostitutie.nl/fileadmin/nl/6._Studie/6.3_Documenten/6.3d_Beleid_regelgeving/pdf/2e%20druk%20def.pdf


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  • #442
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I wouldn't discount anyone's experience or opinion bodice ripper, so where yourself and Yamato are getting that idea is beyond me.

    M'kay....
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    It's like talking to a five year old with no concept of reality. I can't discuss the issue with you when you have no clue of the sex industry in Ireland.
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    It's not for me to make fun of your pìss poor grasp of economics
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    and that's why I love Boards, because people continue to amaze me, such as the way you've just outdone another posters opinion in the "dumb as fcuk" opinion stakes!


  • #443
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    M'kay....

    You're reaching now Yamato just for the sake of petty point scoring. Have you looked at the posts those posts were in reply to?

    Here they are, in context, without your selective editing -

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85310395&postcount=275

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85324067&postcount=379

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=85321882#post85321882

    Anyway, you missed this one -
    Czarcasm wrote: »
    Fly-by posters that fly in when it suits them in a discussion and then fcuk off again when it doesn't are something else that wrecks my brain. Look up the definition of coercion for yourself if you think I'm just making up definitions, and this is why I directed people to read the thread I linked to, because it was just easier than the same points being made over and over again.

    I could nearly do a copy and paste job at this stage but I'm not a fan of hand holding and spoon feeding grown adults, I don't mind helping people to understand or trying to inform and educate them, but if they show absolutely no willingness whatsoever to understand, well then I'm all for them exercising their free will to remain ignorant as I feel no need to coerce them.


  • #444
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    SoupMonster wrote: »
    Your link was truncated, can you repost?

    Sorry, hope this works

    http://tinyurl.com/qgxf2sh

    Here's an extract concerning Karina Schaapman, referenced in your post above.
    Wagenaar also believes that the political climate has become more hostile towards prostitution. People like Karina Schaapman – a former prostitute who was a member of the Amsterdam City Council played a role in this. “Schaapman has turned into a very vigilant anti-prostitution voice. This is an important factor because prostitution policy is shaped by images as I said earlier. For example, the Dutch policy of legalisation is based on the idealized image of the strong, autonomous and emancipated woman who self-consciously decides she wants to be a prostitute. Schaapman’s image of the prostitute is that of the female slave who is forced into prostitution by sex-addicted, aggressive males. Of course the latter happens, but for a lot of prostitutes, this is not the case at all.”


  • #445
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    You're reaching now Yamato just for the sake of petty point scoring.

    Perhaps you should have qualified your earlier statement with an 'unless'.
    Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
    I wouldn't discount anyone's experience or opinion


  • #446
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    Perhaps you should have qualified your earlier statement with an 'unless'.


    I shouldn't have had to Yamato if people weren't only interested in playing silly semantics and selective quoting.

    Most people who are interested in the issues involved will get the general idea as opposed to reducing any discussion to getting one up on someone by quoting them out of context and nit picking over the language used in their posts.


  • #447
    Yamanoto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,489 ✭✭✭Yamanoto


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    I shouldn't have had to Yamato if people weren't only interested in playing silly semantics and selective quoting.

    So you bought a drink but never paid for a drink?

    Or was it the other way 'round, it's been awhile.

    Shenanigans aside, have you perused the interview linked above?


  • #448
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    So you bought a drink but never paid for a drink?

    Or was it the other way 'round, it's been awhile.

    Shenanigans aside, have you perused the interview linked above?


    I haven't yet Yamato as I'm posting from mobile at the moment, but when I get home certainly I'll read through it. Sometimes when I'm out and about I don't get time to read research papers, reports and articles especially on mobile, I prefer to wait till I get home when I have time to fully digest their content, same way as I'll often read back over a thread numerous times in the intervening months to see was there a better way I could've expressed myself or was there any points I missed that I should've picked up on.


  • #449
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    same way as I'll often read back over a thread numerous times in the intervening months to see was there a better way I could've expressed myself or was there any points I missed that I should've picked up on.

    Dude, truthishly?


  • #450
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Yamanoto wrote: »
    Two questions.

    1. Who exactly is party to this 'general consensus' ?

    2. How did they go about determining that 60%-80% figure?

    Also if you're asking folks to 'think for themselves', it strikes me as a little off that you wouldn't apply the same standard to establishing the veracity of the statement you've made above. You appear to have accepted a rather vague and wooly assertion (attributed to no one), as something conclusive.



    It's an interesting and accessible interview, providing considerably more detail on the problems present in De Wallen & the City authorities historical failure to adequately address same.

    http://www.eukn.org/Interviews/Archi...arged%E2%80%9D


    Just quoting the above Yamato to give people context for what interview you're referring to here-
    Yamanoto wrote: »
    Shenanigans aside, have you perused the interview linked above?


    It's a good interview and he makes some very good points, one of which being the lack of innovation in tackling the inherent problems in the sex work industry, which he puts down to policies and also the prevalent attitude in society towards sex workers. I found myself agreeing with a lot of what he had to say tbh.

    He says though he has no solution to the issues presented, but one of the best solutions I've found is education, educate people so that they have more choices, and for those that choose to get into the sex industry, at least they are educated in health and safety, taxation, economics, marketing, etc, so that they know exactly what they're getting into and they are self sufficient, they have the tools to make a good life for themselves in the business and they have an exit strategy and a career path on from that.

    The other thing you have to account for though, is policy change doesn't necessarily lead to social change, and in Ireland it's very unlikely we'll ever see a transexual in lingerie in the window of BT2 combing her hair while Anto passes by without batting an eyelid.


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  • #451
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    strobe wrote: »
    Dude, truthishly?


    Of course! Can you imagine if I didn't do that, the amount of shìte talk and straying off the point I'd be coming out with! I'm getting better at it, though clearly not quite there yet :pac:


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