Why can nobody speak Irish?

An Coilean wrote: »

That was in relation to your comment regarding the Governments approch, essentially you suggested that the government was just reacting to the will of the populous, my comment was that government is not just engaged in trying to promote Irish to create an Irish speaking populous (or not as the case may be) but it also has a duty to respect the right of the existing Irish speaking community to use Irish when carrying out their business with the state.

In cases where this right is not being accomodated by the state, which is still quite common, there are official channels through which a greviance can be brought.

Then, as you have no problem speaking English in the commerical world, it goes back to your points about Irish being treated as a second class langauge.

If the government is going to the extent of providing services for people who mere WISH to conduct their business in Irish, at quiet an expense, then it is hardly treating Irish as a second class langauge - it is doing a lot to accomdate you, and I have no problem with it as such, as long as the average Irish speaker accepts that there are times when such things are neither practical (e.g. - making an emergency 999 call, reporting to guards).

English is the Lingua Franca these days and it's quickly becoming a universal language. English is not even "English" anymore since it uses so many loanwords from other languages, ie. doppelganger, zeitgeist etc, making it a mongrel language that has no real cultural ties apart from it's name.

So in this sense, Irish is quite a useless language these days, especially when the majority of the population do not speak it. You can learn it if you want, and all the power to you if you enjoy it, but remember that it's not going to provide anything useful apart from novelty value for interested foreigners and like-minded Irish people.

Personally, I do not subscribe to Irish culture or pride. I only identify myself as "Irish" because of the coincidence that I was born in Ireland, but overall I just say I'm "human".

shleedance wrote: »

English is not even "English" anymore since it uses so many loanwords from other languages, ie. doppelganger, zeitgeist etc, making it a mongrel language that has no real cultural ties apart from it's name.

Lots of languages have large amounts of borrowed vocabulary. Even Irish traces a large portions of its lexicon to Latin, French and Norse.

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

Haven't read the whole thread, in answer to the op nobody can speak it because the focus from primary school right through to the leaving is on rote learning vocabulary and grammar, not on actually speaking the language. Added to this many teachers at primary level can't speak the language fluently themselves, so how in gods name could they pass it on to children.

oldyouth wrote: »

I couldn't get on with any Irish teacher I ever had. It was assumed that there would be someone at home who had Irish and could assist me with my homework. When I pointed out that this was not the case and I needed additional help, I was sneered at and comments were often made about my heritage. I fell too far behind in primary school to ever catch up

To cut a long story short, I wouldn't let that slide and this led to me being granted permission to absent myself from all Irish classes from 3rd year onwards

Gotta love the Christian Brothers...

Could be worse, the brothers could have raped you. Repeatedly

Teaching Irish badly is low down on that particular bunch of criminals rap sheet

BognarRegis wrote: »

There's also the possibility that the children simply do not wish to speak Irish.

For the Irish lobby, that's an 'appalling vista', as they would rather believe that the teaching method just needs more work and given a few more decades, Irish will once again be our common language.

Not likely, I'm a fluent Irish speaker myself but don't believe in forcing it on anybody. Most of the teachers I know struggle to hold a conversation or string a proper sentence together. I have a neighbour with a ten year old in a gaelscoil and the child stutters through a response if you try to talk to him in irish. not the childs fault and possiblly not the teachers fault either, but the system definately is not working at present. Then there is the fact that kids don't want to speak it as you say. No idea how to fix it, or even if it should be fixed, personally I'd prefer if my kids learned the basics of some European languages at school much earlier rather than a language the will be utterly useless to them in their working lives. If they want to learn Irish then great, I can speak it to them at home.

mickeyk wrote: »

Not likely, I'm a fluent Irish speaker myself but don't believe in forcing it on anybody. Most of the teachers I know struggle to hold a conversation or string a proper sentence together. I have a neighbour with a ten year old in a gaelscoil and the child stutters through a response if you try to talk to him in irish. not the childs fault and possiblly not the teachers fault either, but the system definately is not working at present. Then there is the fact that kids don't want to speak it as you say. No idea how to fix it, or even if it should be fixed, personally I'd prefer if my kids learned the basics of some European languages at school much earlier rather than a language the will be utterly useless to them in their working lives. If they want to learn Irish then great, I can speak it to them at home.

This is the circular argument that's been going on for decades, it seems that there is no desire to 'fix it', no will whatsoever, which leads me to believe that intentional neglect is destroying the language. Hebrew was all but a dead language but the Israeli's ressurected it and it is now the spoken language of Israel simply because the will to do so was there.

As for the argument that it's 'utterly useless in business', there's a cultural, social and intelectual element to learning, it's depressing to think that human developement should be so reductive as to make learning all about plugging workers into a factory floor. To say that learning is only about manufacturing workers for the system is like saying sex should only be about procreation or eating should only be about consuming enough nutrients to stay alive.
This attitude seems to be a product of the necon libertarian elites that talk about 'Ireland Inc.' a phrase that sickens me and a mentality that created the bust, the attitude that anything that isn't making me money is dispensable, we work in an economy, we don't live in one and schooling is as much about creating a society as it is about creating an employee.

conorhal wrote: »

This is the circular argument that's been going on for decades, it seems that there is no desire to 'fix it', no will whatsoever, which leads me to believe that intentional neglect is destroying the language. Hebrew was all but a dead language but the Israeli's ressurected it and it is now the spoken language of Israel simply because the will to do so was there.

Maybe, but you can't argue with will. If the will to learn Irish is simply not there, there's not much you can do about it.

As for the argument that it's 'utterly useless in business', there's a cultural, social and intelectual element to learning, it's depressing to think that human developement should be so reductive as to make learning all about plugging workers into a factory floor. To say that learning is only about manufacturing workers for the system is like saying sex should only be about procreation or eating should only be about consuming enough nutrients to stay alive.
This attitude seems to be a product of the necon libertarian elites that talk about 'Ireland Inc.' a phrase that sickens me and a mentality that created the bust, the attitude that anything that isn't making me money is dispensable, we work in an economy, we don't live in one and schooling is as much about creating a society as it is about creating an employee.

You've kind of gone off an a tangent there, starting with business and moving on to learning/education.

Yes, Irish is of little use in business. Most people in business look to earn money, and to earn it as quickly and as easily as possible, and so will do it in a common language where possible. That's reality.

But it doesn't mean said businessmen do not like or use Irish - they may well do so in other aspects of their lives.

I agree with you completely that education is more than just learning employment skills. But that said, it should be learnign somethign of value to the student, be it a hobby, an interest or something they just like. Some students like art, some like history, some like woodwork and sometimes with no professional goals in mind. If we're using learnign to create a society, then we need to look at what those individuals want to contribute to that society and not TELL THEM what we think that shold be contributing. Because that clearly isn't working.

My kids level of Irish is woeful. The teachers in their school hardly ever speak Irish to them. There is no "An bhfuil cead agam dul amach". My sons irish last year was learning to spell 10 words. The words are in a workbook which he fills in the 1 word beside the picture. He can't put the words into sentences or pronounce them when I ask him. He is now going into 4th class and can't string a sentence together and this is not uncommon in his class. From speaking to past pupil they even say the level of Irish taught in the primary school is very poor.
Irish should not be taught out of books until at least 4th class. The children should be spoken to in Irish to give them an ear for the language, then the reading/writing and spelling. At least them the kids would have some idea what they are actually reading and spelling.
I don't know what to do about my kids Irish - go to the principal and tell her that all the teachers are ****e at teaching Irish?

conorhal wrote: »

This is the circular argument that's been going on for decades, it seems that there is no desire to 'fix it', no will whatsoever, which leads me to believe that intentional neglect is destroying the language. Hebrew was all but a dead language but the Israeli's ressurected it and it is now the spoken language of Israel simply because the will to do so was there.

As for the argument that it's 'utterly useless in business', there's a cultural, social and intelectual element to learning, it's depressing to think that human developement should be so reductive as to make learning all about plugging workers into a factory floor. To say that learning is only about manufacturing workers for the system is like saying sex should only be about procreation or eating should only be about consuming enough nutrients to stay alive.
This attitude seems to be a product of the necon libertarian elites that talk about 'Ireland Inc.' a phrase that sickens me and a mentality that created the bust, the attitude that anything that isn't making me money is dispensable, we work in an economy, we don't live in one and schooling is as much about creating a society as it is about creating an employee.

I have kids and one of the things I want for them is to have a good education and job prospects, as any parent. They have a good amount of irish as I speak it to them often, it would be a waste not to especially as it will help them through our education system in the points race assuming that is still in place when they come to leavibg cert. i do feel however that ramming the language down every students throat as a compulsory subject up until leaving cert is wrong and it clearly doesn't work anyway. The average leaving cert student cannot hold even a basic conversation about the weather in my experience.

Because most payslips are printed in English.

Kicking Bird wrote: »

Plenty can and do speak Irish on a daily basis!

Enough to sopt it from dying out then. Good. Let the rest of us get on with our lives.