Have you ever been to a Brothel

HansHolzel · 01-07-2013 12:34AM

The only fantasy fulfilled for free is Czarcasm's one of being up on a pulpit i.e. here.

Czarcasm · 01-07-2013 12:44AM

HansHolzel wrote: »

The only fantasy fulfilled for free is Czarcasm's one of being up on a pulpit i.e. here.

I never start these type threads, so I'd hardly say one of my fantasies was being in the limelight, the fact is I prefer to work in the background to give people the opportunities to make their own limelight.

I think if anyone is looking for validation on the Internet, they're going to be sorely disappointed, unless of course they're playing to the crowd and theirs is the popular opinion. When they go out in the real world however their opinion doesn't count for a hill of shìtty beans.

kowloon · 01-07-2013 12:56AM

I was in a nursing home that I was told used to be a brothel, seemed like a nice place, but I suspect it had been renovated and changed a little. If I remember the drive it was somewhere out the direction of Maynooth or Naas.

Zen65 · 01-07-2013 01:21AM

HansHolzel wrote: »

The only fantasy fulfilled for free is Czarcasm's one of being up on a pulpit i.e. here.

I find the thread easier to read since I put him on "ignore" list

Z

Czarcasm · 01-07-2013 01:44AM

Zen65 wrote: »

I find the thread easier to read since I put him on "ignore" list

Z

Crying a river here Z.

mutley18 · 01-07-2013 01:47AM

Yes, in Amsterdam, had to sample all the local delicacies and culture so don't judge me.

hsianloon · 01-07-2013 02:07AM

Yeah it was a pub. All I had to do was pay for a few drinks. There's maybe 10 in each town in Ireland...not hard at all to find. Even live music at some

SoupMonster · 31-07-2013 05:38PM

Zen65 wrote: »

However the Red Light district in Amsterdam appears to be operated in a responsible way, with the sex workers themselves being in control of their own trade (no pimps) and able to earn a decent living from it. I've not used their services (nor the services of any prostitute / brothel) so I've not had the chance to discuss the issue with one of the ladies working there.

The Mayor and police in Amsterdam would disagree with you. Pimping and forced prostitution are common, it happens in plain sight. Discussing the issue with working girls will get you nowhere. You are obviously being truthful in saying you have never bought if you think that a prostituting woman will discuss her life/motivation/feelings honestly with you.

BTW - usually only Australian punters use the word 'ladies' when talking about prostitution.

Zen65 wrote: »

Much of what has been posted here on this thread seems to me to be deflecting from that question; the references to human trafficking and coercion serve only to cloud the issue - there is nobody on this Forum who would condone such things, but they are not necessarily an attribute of sex work.

Z,
I have used the services of prostitutes in many countries, I have encountered under-age, trafficked and forced prostitution, both in Ireland and overseas. It is impossible for a punter to distinguish a woman who has been trafficked or coerced from a voluntary prostitute. I know the women I encountered were trafficked or coerced because of later police busts. Police busts were not necessary to spot the under-age girls, whether she was 13 in BKK or 15 in DUB.

As a punter, I can assure you that human-trafficking and coercion are an inherent part of the prostitution industry. Academic articles that examine punter behaviour show that most punters believe this to be the case. Since you say you don't buy, why not accept what the men who do buy say? Or maybe it is better to hear it from the women themselves.

From the New Zealand Prostitution Law Review report 2008. "Only" 3.9% of women self report as being forced. NZ is the exemplary model of a decriminalised regime.

From Roessler et al 2010. 1.9% of Zurich prostitutes self-report as being forced, with the authors adding a caveat that this is probably an underestimate. Zurich is a legalised/regulated regime.

Zen65 wrote: »

So the moral question which has been posed by a number of posters here amounts to this: If you pay a fair price, is the act of purchasing sex wrong in itself?

Taking this as a moral question, leaving aside the issues that cloud it, and assuming I am buying from a woman drawn randomly from the population.
I would say no. Theoretically, there is no reason why I could not offer a lawyer I just met €10 for sex, she counters with €100,000 and we haggle before settling on a price and having sex.

Taking this as a moral question, including the real-world issues that cloud it, and acknowledging that sex is purchased from 'prostitutes' rather than random women or lawyers.
Is the act of purchasing sex from a prostitute wrong, given that you run a 2% or higher risk of buying the opportunity to rape? I would say yes, definitely wrong morally.

Another issue to bear in mind is the psychological toll that prostitution often exacts on the women who sell, even those that do so willingly. The Roessler article examines this in the Zurich setting. 10% have severe mental problems and the burden of sex work is blamed. Similar finding from the Kirby Institute in NSW, Australia.

If we rephrase the question to include the psychological harm caused, buying sex in the real world is even more morally wrong.

For married buyers,... you get the point.

Shenshen · 31-07-2013 05:49PM

I haven't been, there wouldn't be that many around where I could hire a bloke if I ever fancied it.

A friend of mine worked in one while studying, back home in Germany. It was one of the more high-end ones, I understand, where she could at any time decline a punter if she didn't like him.

She didn't mind it, she said she's selling her body now, and later on in life she'd sell her brains. According to her, we all sold out abilities to earn a living, the only thing we had a say in was which abilities we wanted to put on the market.

SoupMonster · 01-08-2013 03:45AM

Shenshen wrote: »

A friend of mine worked in one while studying, back home in Germany. It was one of the more high-end ones, I understand, where she could at any time decline a punter if she didn't like him.

Just to fill gaps in my education:-
1. Was this before or after 2002, the year the law changed?
2. The statement about declining punters implies that this is/was a problem in lower-end brothels. Is this your interpretation or was it her opinion?

I can see how declining punters would be an issue in flat-rate brothels where women have a quota, usually 10 of 15. If insufficient punters show up, they still must fulfil their quota, effectively negating their right to refuse. I didn't think it was a systemic problem in other brothels.

ardle1 · 01-08-2013 04:11AM

I've never been myself no interest at all (maybe that will change in a few years who knows) anyway did you ever have one of your good friends come up to you and boast about being in one and your saying stuff like 'no way' 'fair play to ya' 'what was she like' 'how'd I miss that' ETC ETC. But deep down inside your saying 'are you having a laugh are you that desperate in fact you feel a little bit sorry for him?

01-08-2013 04:22AM

I delivered a few pizzas to one, when I was in Australia.

ardinn · 01-08-2013 04:52AM

I really feel sorry for this country - People who are so worried about other peoples likes and dislikes and what "other" people should be doing.

Wake up call

If you dont like something, do not engage in it - But do not tell someone they should not or cannot because of your views. If a person sees an opportunity to make money and earn a good living from prostitution - then I say fair play.

If this country had any balls we would legalize and regulate prostitution and cannabis, following the netherlands example!

Tourism would Skyrocket, meaning revenues would skyrocket, I cannot fathom in all honesty why this isnt being considered.

There would be an adjustment period, and problems would arise, as would in any new venture, but none that couldnt be ironed out.

I really cant wait for the old die hards of this country to die off in all honesty - but the old biddy brigade will however continue to ring joe duffy and cause outrage on such matters.

Shenshen · 01-08-2013 07:54AM

SoupMonster wrote: »

Just to fill gaps in my education:-
1. Was this before or after 2002, the year the law changed?
2. The statement about declining punters implies that this is/was a problem in lower-end brothels. Is this your interpretation or was it her opinion?

I can see how declining punters would be an issue in flat-rate brothels where women have a quota, usually 10 of 15. If insufficient punters show up, they still must fulfil their quota, effectively negating their right to refuse. I didn't think it was a systemic problem in other brothels.

1) Yes, this was in the late 90s.

2) Her words, as I remember them.

Grayson · 01-08-2013 08:13AM

SoupMonster wrote: »

The Mayor and police in Amsterdam would disagree with you. Pimping and forced prostitution are common, it happens in plain sight. Discussing the issue with working girls will get you nowhere. You are obviously being truthful in saying you have never bought if you think that a prostituting woman will discuss her life/motivation/feelings honestly with you.

BTW - usually only Australian punters use the word 'ladies' when talking about prostitution.

Z,
I have used the services of prostitutes in many countries, I have encountered under-age, trafficked and forced prostitution, both in Ireland and overseas. It is impossible for a punter to distinguish a woman who has been trafficked or coerced from a voluntary prostitute. I know the women I encountered were trafficked or coerced because of later police busts. Police busts were not necessary to spot the under-age girls, whether she was 13 in BKK or 15 in DUB.

As a punter, I can assure you that human-trafficking and coercion are an inherent part of the prostitution industry. Academic articles that examine punter behaviour show that most punters believe this to be the case. Since you say you don't buy, why not accept what the men who do buy say? Or maybe it is better to hear it from the women themselves.

From the New Zealand Prostitution Law Review report 2008. "Only" 3.9% of women self report as being forced. NZ is the exemplary model of a decriminalised regime.

From Roessler et al 2010. 1.9% of Zurich prostitutes self-report as being forced, with the authors adding a caveat that this is probably an underestimate. Zurich is a legalised/regulated regime.

Taking this as a moral question, leaving aside the issues that cloud it, and assuming I am buying from a woman drawn randomly from the population.
I would say no. Theoretically, there is no reason why I could not offer a lawyer I just met €10 for sex, she counters with €100,000 and we haggle before settling on a price and having sex.

Taking this as a moral question, including the real-world issues that cloud it, and acknowledging that sex is purchased from 'prostitutes' rather than random women or lawyers.
Is the act of purchasing sex from a prostitute wrong, given that you run a 2% or higher risk of buying the opportunity to rape? I would say yes, definitely wrong morally.

Another issue to bear in mind is the psychological toll that prostitution often exacts on the women who sell, even those that do so willingly. The Roessler article examines this in the Zurich setting. 10% have severe mental problems and the burden of sex work is blamed. Similar finding from the Kirby Institute in NSW, Australia.

If we rephrase the question to include the psychological harm caused, buying sex in the real world is even more morally wrong.

For married buyers,... you get the point.

Which moral theory are you using for these moral justifications?

oldyouth · 01-08-2013 08:19AM

Nothing to do with morals, but I couldn't let my lad anywhere near a skank whether it was a prostitute or free

Czarcasm · 01-08-2013 09:18AM

ardinn wrote: »

I
Wake up call...

If this country had any balls we would legalize and regulate prostitution and cannabis, following the netherlands example!

You cannot compare Ireland to the Netherlands, two totally different cultures and attitudes in society, but since you bring it up -

The Amsterdam Experiment has been a disaster.

SoupMonster · 02-08-2013 09:33PM

Grayson wrote: »

Which moral theory are you using for these moral justifications?

No moral theory, just my own view on the issue.
Which do you think is unjustified, buying in a notional utopia or not buying in the real world?

justforlaugh · 02-08-2013 10:12PM

the amount of human trafficking that go on it disgusting that people would turn a blind eye and still go to the brothel, a lot of woman are being force to have sex!

SoupMonster · 02-08-2013 11:25PM

justforlaugh wrote: »

the amount of human trafficking that go on it disgusting that people would turn a blind eye and still go to the brothel, a lot of woman are being force to have sex!

Here is an ILO paper that attempts to estimate supply and demand of trafficked humans (2006).

Based on their best available data "Trafficked Victims would represent on average 24 percent of total prostitution." (338,000 people). I think that could be classified as more than "a lot".

Edit: 338,000 per year into top 27 destination countries (W.Europe & USA).

Yamanoto · 02-08-2013 11:33PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

The Amsterdam Experiment has been a disaster.

The article you've linked to is an opinion piece by Julie Bindel, a lesbian feminist & co-author of a report on UK Brothels labelled 'inaccurate' & 'unethical' by 27 leading academics involved in sex-work research.

Big Brothel research 'seriously flawed'

The Big Brothel report, co-authored by journalist and campaigner Julie Bindel and Helen Atkins, received huge media coverage last month.

But critics accused it of conflating fears over trafficking with general prostitution.

Brooks-Gordon said: "You can't just churn out political propaganda and say it's research. You end up with very dangerous policy.

"The government has to bear responsibility if they have put tenders out for research and the people carrying out that research are not following full ethics procedures.

She called the report a "shocker". "Not only is the methodology flawed but it shows a complete lack of understanding about the sex industry."

One of the academic signatories, Dr Petra Boynton, lecturer in health research at University College London, said the research had implications for how academic researchers conduct their work.

"If you are going to research this area you are allowed to have a personal view and agenda but you can't go into it without following due process".

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/oct/03/research.women

Czarcasm · 02-08-2013 11:50PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

The article you've linked to is an opinion piece by Julie Bindel, a lesbian feminist & co-author of a report on UK Brothels labelled 'inaccurate' & 'unethical' by 27 leading academics involved in sex-work research.

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/oct/03/research.women

I'm willing to bet you still haven't read through this thread-

Exclusion of Sex Workers from the Justice Committee.

I'm also willing to bet you haven't read through even ONE of the studies and reports that Soupmonster has linked to in this thread.

jay92 · 03-08-2013 12:19AM

wandatowell wrote: »

Sick rotten places, wouldnt step foot in them.

TBH though the more I think of it the more I realize I couldnt really care less about them.

They dont effect my life one iota so why I even have an opinion on them baffles me.

From right now onwards I shant give a flying fcuk about any whores or whore house.

You sir are an ignorant conservative.

Czarcasm · 03-08-2013 12:57AM

Yamanoto wrote: »

I read the article you yourself linked to ON THIS THREAD - that was surely your intention, no?

Yes of course it was, and because you were able to do your research about the sources of that article, to be honest I was hoping you'd reply with "Yes I have read the studies and reports that Soupmonster linked to actually, AND I've read that thread that you keep linking to!".

See for me it's not about who's right or wrong, I only care about people being more informed, so that they can indeed make up their own minds when they are fully informed. For me it's not an academic discussion, it's more than that, we're talking about people, not just the one off anecdotal "I know someone who did well out of sex work so they're all doing great out of sex work so lets allow it because a country with a totally different culture and attitude in society says it's ok!".

No they didn't, and if you were ever speaking to any Dutch people you'd quickly realise they're sick of the sex and drug tourists.

SoupMonster · 03-08-2013 01:00AM

Yamanoto wrote: »

The article you've linked to is an opinion piece by Julie Bindel, a lesbian feminist & co-author of a report on UK Brothels labelled 'inaccurate' & 'unethical' by 27 leading academics involved in sex-work research.
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2008/oct/03/research.women

Here are two news articles from the last two days.
Europe Online
and a Turkish newspaper. They will give you some background info.

In Amsterdam, the general consensus is that 60% to 80% of prostitutes in the highly visible de Wallen windows are trafficked or otherwise pimped or forced. They also have a major problem with 'loverboys' who pimp out their Dutch girlfriends as soon as the reach 18.
Hence they are closing windows, raising the legal age to 21 and insisting that all prostitutes speak one of the major European languages.

Poppy Project
Why rely on some academic to tell you what to think? I would suggest you read the Poppy Project report yourself and make up your own mind. Read the detailed critique made by the academics and see if you agree. Everything must be questioned, even the motives of the 27 academics.

Aidric · 03-08-2013 01:26AM

mutley18 wrote: »

Yes, in Amsterdam, had to sample all the local delicacies and culture so don't judge me.

No better place to break the duck. Some of the hookers in Amsterdam are of a model standard.

Thomasmartin · 03-08-2013 01:28AM

Aidric wrote: »

No better place to break the duck. Some of the hookers in Amsterdam are of a model standard.

Would love to go window shopping!

2 stroke · 03-08-2013 01:35AM

I worked in a brothel. Plumbed in a washing machine.

Aidric · 03-08-2013 01:53AM

Thomasmartin wrote: »

Would love to go window shopping!

You won't stop at browsing though, I guarantee it. If you have a few beers on board its a 100% guarantee. Even with the best intentions if you catch a look at some of the hookers on the main strip in Amsterdam there is no turning back.

April O Neill · 03-08-2013 03:59AM

Yes, I have.

Last time was when I went in to collect my P45.

Have you ever been to a Brothel

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