Why can nobody speak Irish?

Tony EH · 01-08-2013 02:19PM

An Coilean wrote: »

My remark was in responce to the other poster going on about gob****es. If I saw an Irish speaker attacked for looking for a service in Irish as was the case in that post, I would never darken the door of that establishment again.

Who said ANYTHING at all about being "attacked"? :rolleyes:

Somebody who comes into a shop, expecting to be conversed with in Irish, in a country where the common tongue is English and an extreme minority can speak the language (and even fewer speak it well) and then getting miffed that their coulpa focail isn't catered for...is being a gob****e.

BognarRegis · 01-08-2013 06:28PM

An Coilean wrote: »

I never said limit the options to only those who can speak Irish, there is a difference in having Irish speakers on your staff to provide a service and only hireing Irish speakers.

Surely it would be better to have Polish or Mandarin-speakers on the staff? In Ireland, it's far more likely that somebody who speaks those languages walks in the door rather than an Irish-speaker.

JohnMearsheimer · 01-08-2013 08:38PM

I wish my own Irish was better. I'd prefer if Irish teaching was more focused at making people more proficient in the day to day use of the Irish language rather than focusing on poetry and stories.

BognarRegis · 01-08-2013 08:44PM

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

I'd prefer if Irish teaching was more focused at making people more proficient in the day to day use of the Irish language

Why are all Irish-language enthusiasts so obsessed with making people do things?

An Coilean · 01-08-2013 08:44PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Surely it would be better to have Polish or Mandarin-speakers on the staff? In Ireland, it's far more likely that somebody who speaks those languages walks in the door rather than an Irish-speaker.

There's alot less Mandarin speakers in ireland than you seem to think, as for Polish, they generally tend to have their own network of shops where the staff are fluent in Polish.

BognarRegis · 01-08-2013 08:49PM

An Coilean wrote: »

as for Polish, they generally tend to have their own network of shops where the staff are fluent in Polish.

And the Irish-speakers do not.

An Coilean · 01-08-2013 08:54PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

And the Irish-speakers do not.

Not specifically Irish language shops outside the Gaeltacht usually, though there are a few, its more common that you will know the people in shops who can speak Irish in your local area and go to them if you want to speak Irish while doing your business. Irish speakers are well established in the wider community and as such there is a good spread in most places, Polish being a much more recent arrival is not so established hence the need for specific Polish shops.

JohnMearsheimer · 01-08-2013 08:55PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Why are all Irish-language enthusiasts so obsessed with making people do things?

I'd hardly call myself an Irish language enthusiast but I do have far more respect for the language now than when I was in school.

You're post is non-nonsensical. You make me out to be some kind of authoritarian. You're gripe is with my use of words. My main point was that Irish teaching in school should be re-focused.

BognarRegis · 01-08-2013 09:07PM

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

You're post is non-nonsensical. You make me out to be some kind of authoritarian. You're gripe is with my use of words. My main point was that Irish teaching in school should be re-focused.

Could it be re-focused onto those who wish to learn Irish?

Ulsteryank · 01-08-2013 09:10PM

"If you don't use it, you loose it." Oddly enough the first I ever heard it spoken was by two guys in a bar in my hometown in America. I've always had kind of an interest in mythology, and place names, so I got my GCSE's in it doing a once a week part time course in Belfast's An Cultúrlann. It only took three years, and I skipped level 4, so if one has a passion for it, it's not difficult to learn. After I got the benchmark&wanting to work on my spoken Irish, I started going to An Cumann Cluain Árd. I think that was the best because it's free and the way it's taught. Adult humoured with a bit of craic with English not allowed on tea breaks....in the last year however, my gym changed training dates with nights I'd go, and being skint in the recession not going out as much using it, my spoken Irish has already declined though I can hear and read it perfectly.

One thing I have noticed though, is the attitude towards it is a lot different in the North with the whole "identity" thing....aside from that you do actually run into it so it's not a totally useless thing knowing. Working as a barman at the weekend I do hear it spoken now and again, and it's regularly spoken in Ceathrún na Gaeltachta.

FizzleSticks · 01-08-2013 09:29PM

This post has been deleted.

Noreen1 · 01-08-2013 09:29PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Surely it would be better to have Polish or Mandarin-speakers on the staff? In Ireland, it's far more likely that somebody who speaks those languages walks in the door rather than an Irish-speaker.

I speak Irish on my local shops on a daily basis, actually!

Strangely enough, I've been known to shop outside my local area, too, or conduct other business, and I'm a native Irish speaker.
I've been spoken to, in Irish, by total strangers in Dublin, Galway, and Kerry.
They picked up on my accent, and asked if I could speak Irish, on each occasion.

Yet, if I entered your place of work, I'm fairly certain it would never cross your mind that I'm a native Irish speaker.
You seem to think we're extinct!:p:D

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-08-2013 09:35PM

You seem to have had quiet a respoce here while I was away so apolgies if I'm repating points already made.

An Coilean wrote: »

Of course.
If a customer comes into a business, lets say a shop for arguments sake and they want to use Welsh and the staff can not provide a service in Welsh, then that business may loose customers to a competitor that does provide a service in Welsh, in such a case it is quite essential that the business has staff capable of dealing with customers in Welsh.

Learning a language is quite an onerous task and given that there is little support for doing so it is hardily surprising that many people dont. In any case it is not about creating an Irish speaking population, its about recognising the rights of the existing Irish speaking community.

Take a place that is fully bilingual, like Bolzano/Bozen in Nothern Italy, Everyone there can Speak Italian, a minority community also speak German as their first language but also speak Italian (Its near the Swiss border) Just because the German speakers in the city can speak Italian does not mean that you can force them to do so. Not providing a service in German will result in that community not engadging with your business.
In terms of the state, there is an obligation to respect the language choice of the German speaking community and provide services in German even though they can also speak Italian.
The state has no business forcing peole to use Italian.

1 - Can said customer speak a common language with the employee? If so, this is not essential. Said customer is welcome to take his business eslewhere. Is it cost effective and time effective to hire and pay someone just in this off chance?

2 - Irish speakers have said rights, what they may lack is the facilities. And they do not have the right to these facilities, because to award such would be to infrigne other peoples' rights.

3 - No, let's not take a place that fully bilungual because we are not taking an accurate comparison. A place that is fully bilungual has two common languages.

Again - losing a customer is not life threatening. Being unable to accomodate a customer is not the end of the business. Next.

BognarRegis · 01-08-2013 09:36PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Not specifically Irish language shops outside the Gaeltacht usually, though there are a few, its more common that you will know the people in shops who can speak Irish in your local area and go to them if you want to speak Irish while doing your business. Irish speakers are well established in the wider community and as such there is a good spread in most places, Polish being a much more recent arrival is not so established hence the need for specific Polish shops.

Outside of education, Polish is more widely and commonly spoken as a first language in Ireland than Irish. Its enthusiasts are so strong they can support Polish-language enterprises here (such as shops) without any state subsidy. The same cannot be said of Irish.

woodoo · 01-08-2013 10:30PM

Its over guys the language isn't coming back to its previous glory.. move on.

LordSutch · 01-08-2013 10:45PM

An Coilean wrote: »

There's alot less Mandarin speakers in ireland than you seem to think...

Didn't the last census show Mandarin to be in 3rd place as a spoken language in Ireland, behind 1/English, 2/Polish, 3/Mandarin, 4/Irish . . .

I'm sure somebody will correct me if this is wrong.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-08-2013 10:59PM

An Coilean wrote: »

We really need to get over this odd notion that it will always be the case that the person that only has English will somehow be better able to do the job than the person who can speak both Irish and English.

But isn't a large part of your argument that the person who speaks Irish will be better able to do the job...? That or why should I give the job to someone who can nto do it as well, but can speak Irish...?

my my my · 01-08-2013 11:04PM

even in ideal circumstances its almost impossible to use irish, sin é an chaoi a mhac

An Coilean · 02-08-2013 09:58AM

LordSutch wrote: »

Didn't the last census show Mandarin to be in 3rd place as a spoken language in Ireland, behind 1/English, 2/Polish, 3/Mandarin, 4/Irish . . .

I'm sure somebody will correct me if this is wrong.

Nope, Manderin is well behind Irish.

There is a dificulty in using the census to make a comparision here as the question asked is not the same.

For Irish it is , Can you speak Irish? 1.77 million people said yes.
Then there is a 'How frequently do you use Irish' question.

For Polish and other languages it is a question about languages other than Irish and English used in the home to which they just list the language(s) they claim to use in the home.

An Coilean · 02-08-2013 10:04AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

But isn't a large part of your argument that the person who speaks Irish will be better able to do the job...? That or why should I give the job to someone who can nto do it as well, but can speak Irish...?

No, My argument is that if you have two people who are capable of doing the job, and one has Irish, then hireing the one who has Irish will bring an aditional benefit in that they can provide the aditional service of dealing with customers in Irish, this can be used as part of the businesses marketing strategy and provide some diferentation from their competitors.

I have not suggested hiring someone who is not able to do the job just because they have Irish, nor have I suggested hireing only Irish speakers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-08-2013 10:11AM

An Coilean wrote: »

No, My argument is that if you have two people who are capable of doing the job, and one has Irish, then hireing the one who has Irish will bring an aditional benefit in that they can provide the aditional service of dealing with customers in Irish, this can be used as part of the businesses marketing strategy and provide some diferentation from their competitors.

I have not suggested hiring someone who is not able to do the job just because they have Irish, nor have I suggested hireing only Irish speakers.

So you accept, then, that referring the use of a seldom-used second lnaguage as an essential life skill as erroneous? I don't think an Irish speaker is going to bring in enough extra business to warrant makign the distinction. If it did. businesses would be clamoring for them. "Person needed for coffee shop - Irish an advange" seldom comes up in the help-wanted signs for a reason: people who demand to speak Irish tend to be to few to make this worthwhile (and tend to go thirsty).

An Coilean · 02-08-2013 10:17AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

1 - Can said customer speak a common language with the employee? If so, this is not essential. Said customer is welcome to take his business eslewhere. Is it cost effective and time effective to hire and pay someone just in this off chance?

You seem to be setting up a situation where a business is determining what language its customers can speak.
Businesses have to hire staff anyway, true. When this happens it is cost effective to hire an Irish speaker asuming they are capable of doing the job. You had to hire someone anyway and your not paying them any more than you would have had to pay anyway.
Cost is not an issue here.

2 - Irish speakers have said rights, what they may lack is the facilities. And they do not have the right to these facilities, because to award such would be to infrigne other peoples' rights.

In what way do they infringe on the rights of others?

3 - No, let's not take a place that fully bilungual because we are not taking an accurate comparison. A place that is fully bilungual has two common languages.

I take a place that is fully bilingual because it demonstates what i am talking about working in practice and shows best practice.
A place that is bilingual does not have two common languages, ie not everyone can speak both languages. In general you have two language communities, both communities tend to use their own language even though some in both communities know the others language, business and state services are provided bilingually as a rule as to not do so would be seen as alienating the other language community.

Again - losing a customer is not life threatening. Being unable to accomodate a customer is not the end of the business. Next.

I never said it was, but we are not talking about one customer, and needlessly loosing custom is never good for a business.

An Coilean · 02-08-2013 10:19AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So you accept, then, that referring the use of a seldom-used second lnaguage as an essential life skill as erroneous? I don't think an Irish speaker is going to bring in enough extra business to warrant makign the distinction. If it did. businesses would be clamoring for them. "Person needed for coffee shop - Irish an advange" seldom comes up in the help-wanted signs for a reason: people who demand to speak Irish tend to be to few to make this worthwhile (and tend to go thirsty).

You are twisting the point I made somewhat, I was talking about Welsh in Wales which is far from seldom used.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-08-2013 10:23AM

An Coilean wrote: »

In what way do they infringe on the rights of others?

By demanding the right to speak a second langauge and blaming the business when they can't. If this is incorrect, then please stake clearly what right you were referring to in the first place?

I take a place that is fully bilingual because it demonstates what i am talking about working in practice and shows best practice.
A place that is bilingual does not have two common languages, ie not everyone can speak both languages. In general you have two language communities, both communities tend to use their own language even though some in both communities know the others language, business and state services are provided bilingually as a rule as to not do so would be seen as alienating the other language community.

Out of conveniance or necessity?

I never said it was, but we are not talking about one customer, and needlessly loosing custom is never good for a business.

We're talking few enough, see post above.

An Coilean · 02-08-2013 10:36AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

By demanding the right to speak a second langauge and blaming the business when they can't.

How would that infringe the rights of anyone else?

Out of conveniance or necessity?

Both I suppose, not really sure what you mean?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-08-2013 10:41AM

An Coilean wrote: »

How would that infringe the rights of anyone else?

Infringing on the right to speak English. If you have the right to speak Irish, don't I have the right to speak English? Or, again: what rights of Irish speakers are you talking about?

Both I suppose, not really sure what you mean?

People do not speak Irish out of convenience.

Noreen1 · 02-08-2013 11:04AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Infringing on the right to speak English. If you have the right to speak Irish, don't I have the right to speak English? Or, again: what rights of Irish speakers are you talking about?

People do not speak Irish out of convenience.

I'm not getting into the whole employment argument, though I will admit that speaking Irish is pretty much vital to employment in the service industry where I live.

Having said that, I don't see how speaking Irish isn't convenient for those of us who do speak it.

In fact, in some households, Irish is very much their first language, and it's speaking English that is inconvenient!

An Coilean · 02-08-2013 11:05AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Infringing on the right to speak English. If you have the right to speak Irish, don't I have the right to speak English? Or, again: what rights of Irish speakers are you talking about?

You would, but who in this senario is being forced to speak Irish?

People do not speak Irish out of convenience.

Its generally out of preference.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 02-08-2013 11:19AM

An Coilean wrote: »

You would, but who in this senario is being forced to speak Irish?

You said that promoring Irish was "not about creating an Irish speaking population, its about recognising the rights of the existing Irish speaking community." Now, I may have made a mistake here by assuming this was the right to speak Irish in evey-day life: in this csae, you're going to come up against a lot of occasions where this right is not being recoginsed (or, at least, practicable) - if so, plese correct me and tell me what rights you speak of. And tell me how you propose having a conversation with an Engish speaker who does not speak Irish effects these rights.

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm not getting into the whole employment argument, though I will admit that speaking Irish is pretty much vital to employment in the service industry where I live.

Having said that, I don't see how speaking Irish isn't convenient for those of us who do speak it.

In fact, in some households, Irish is very much their first language, and it's speaking English that is inconvenient!

Fair enough, but I meant more in the business/commercial scene.

An Coilean · 02-08-2013 11:44AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You said that promoring Irish was "not about creating an Irish speaking population, its about recognising the rights of the existing Irish speaking community." Now, I may have made a mistake here by assuming this was the right to speak Irish in evey-day life: in this csae, you're going to come up against a lot of occasions where this right is not being recoginsed (or, at least, practicable) - if so, plese correct me and tell me what rights you speak of. And tell me how you propose having a conversation with an Engish speaker who does not speak Irish effects these rights.

That was in relation to your comment regarding the Governments approch, essentially you suggested that the government was just reacting to the will of the populous, my comment was that government is not just engaged in trying to promote Irish to create an Irish speaking populous (or not as the case may be) but it also has a duty to respect the right of the existing Irish speaking community to use Irish when carrying out their business with the state.

In cases where this right is not being accomodated by the state, which is still quite common, there are official channels through which a greviance can be brought.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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