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N6 - Galway outer bypass: Is it needed?

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  • #512
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Tolls on existing roads/bridges, Congestion Charge... that's a solution..:pac::pac:


  • #513
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    @galwayrush, ?Cee?view et al: are you simply avoiding my question regarding the Final Theory of why the GCOB is allegedly needed?

    Can you enlighten us as to why there are so many apparently conflicting notions as to the function of the proposed bypass?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85750010&postcount=495

    Is it for the Kingston Commuters or those unfortunate people in Connemara who are "cut off" from the rest of the country?

    Is its purpose to get traffic out of Galway City or bring it in?

    Is it to help us do the shopping?


  • #514
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    @galwayrush, ?Cee?view et al: are you simply avoiding my question regarding the Final Theory of why the GCOB is allegedly needed?

    Can you enlighten us as to why there are so many apparently conflicting notions as to the function of the proposed bypass?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85750010&postcount=495

    Is it for the Kingston Commuters or those unfortunate people in Connemara who are "cut off" from the rest of the country?

    Is its purpose to get traffic out of Galway City or bring it in?

    Is it to help us do the shopping?
    You might as well ask what the M50 is for. Or the Athlone bypass. Or any other one. There is a primary purpose for a bypass, which is to remove long-distance traffic from City and Town Centres, and then there are uses to which is put. The law of unintended consequence applies but some of these consequences can, and should, be mitigated.


  • #515
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    The normally opinionated GCOB enthusiasts seems to have gone uncharacteristically quiet.

    That's a real pity, because as well as wanting to know how they can reconcile the apparently conflicting notions regarding the supposed function(s) of the Galway Outer Bypass, I'd be very interested to hear their views on the Waterford Bypass. Perhaps there are lessons to be learned from the Waterford experience, as reported below, so that the business case for the GCOB does not turn out to be "something that promises big but fails to deliver", aka "vaporware".
    Troubled Kilkenny Waterford bridge over Suir a rip-off for motorists

    Kilkenny People, 9th February 2011

    ONE of the largest infrastructure projects ever completed in the South-East of Ireland is a white elephant. The new, iconic bridge over the River Suir linking counties Kilkenny and Waterford was predicted to carry 14,000 vehicles a day when it opened in October 2009 but now struggles to meet a third of that quota.

    An investigation by the Kilkenny People has revealed that the toll bridge, known locally as the 'Cat-Flap', is now handling an average of 5,500 customers a day and according to the National Roads Authority, is overcharging each trip by 10 cent.

    Most commuters around Waterford are avoiding the bridge because it is too expensive and it is still easier to go through the city than pay a toll, especially at off-peak times.

    The €55 million suspension bridge was built partly to alleviate pressure on the Edmund Rice draw-bridge on the city's quay but this has not happened. Neither has the new by-pass been successful in getting people to change their motoring habits.

    A spokesperson for Celtic Roads Group (CRG), which operates the bridge told the Kilkenny People that the economic downturn was to blame for the bridge's poor performance and the lower than expected usage.

    Traffic figures from the Edmund Rice Bridge have remained stubbornly high. The most recent comparable figures available show that the levels of traffic using the Edmund Rice bridge before and after the opening of the Suir Bridge have decreased by 2,000 vehicles a day, from 40,000 to 38,000. The Department of Transport and the National Roads Authority had claimed that traffic volumes using Rice Bridge would be reduced by 10,000 to 12,000 vehicles per day once the Suir bridge was in operation.
    The entire bypass scheme, which promised to remove "up to 14,000 vehicles" per day from the city, cost around half a billion Euro. The actual reduction in city centre traffic falls far short of the 30% predicted by the brochure, and does not represent good value for money, imo.

    I also find it odd that CRG can blame the economic downturn for this situation. What kind of economic downturn reduces traffic on the Edmund Rice Bridge by 5%, while at the same time resulting in increased car travel to work, school and college in Waterford City between 2006 and 2011, as Census figures show?

    I'd be interested to know what the current traffic figures are for the Rice Bridge and the Waterford Bypass.

    Meanwhile, back in Galway, the GCOB is projected to cost €300 million. The most likely financing is through public-private partnership and a toll.

    Kingston commuters, cut-off Connemara people, Salthill visitors and people stuck in traffic on the way to the shops may all be longing for the day when they shall be released, but given the Waterford experience is there any guarantee that the GCOB will deliver on its big promises?


  • #516
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    serfboard wrote: »
    You might as well ask what the M50 is for. Or the Athlone bypass. Or any other one. There is a primary purpose for a bypass, which is to remove long-distance traffic from City and Town Centres, and then there are uses to which is put. The law of unintended consequence applies but some of these consequences can, and should, be mitigated.



    Damn right we should ask.

    If we're to stump up €300 million for a "bypass" should we just hope for the best regarding "the uses to which it is put"?

    And why should we assume that those uses are "unintended" consequences?


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  • #517
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    The by pass is the most practical way to remove unnecessary traffic from near the city centre. Simple.


  • #518
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    galwayrush wrote: »
    The by pass is the most practical way to remove unnecessary traffic from near the city centre.

    Simple.


    Simple?

    No actually:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85750010&postcount=495

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85794078&postcount=515

    If it's so simple, (a) why are there such different views regarding the supposed function of the GCOB, and (b) why has the Waterford Bypass "simply" not functioned in that manner, up to 2011 in any case?

    PS: can you define "most practical" please?


  • #519
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If we're to stump up €300 million for a "bypass" should we just hope for the best regarding "the uses to which it is put"?
    No. As I said "these ... can, and should, be mitigated."
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    And why should we assume that those uses are "unintended" consequences?
    Unintended consequences refers to uses which cannot reasonably be foreseen.

    For example, pre the M6/M4 and M1 I would never have conceived using the M50 toll bridge to get from Galway to Belfast, and those building it presumably didn't imagine I would either. Now, travelling to Belfast I can still go via Sligo and Enniskillen (or cross-country) as before, or I can decide, as I do, to drive along the much safer motorway system including the M50.

    Or, taking a public transport example, the excellent Eireagle service from Citylink means I can be in Dublin airport in 2.5 hours. Would you rather that the M50 "bypass" wasn't built and instead the bus should crawl though Dublin?


  • #520
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    galwayrush wrote: »
    The by pass is the most practical way to remove unnecessary traffic from near the city centre. Simple.

    The problem with removing traffic from the city centre is that vacant road space tends to fill up (over the course of a few months to a couple of years) until it is back to the original congestion level. This is proven. The only way to ensure the continued removal of traffic from near the city centre is to remove a commensurate amount of roadspace as has been provided by the bypass. This can be done by re-purposing roadspace to buslanes, cycle lanes, removal of lanes in multi-lane roads, tightening junctions to make them more pedestrian friendly, increasing the length of the "green man" at lights around the centre, creating no-through-routes for cars (done extensively in Vancouver and the Netherlands for example), or a combination of the lot. Building a bypass is an incredible opportunity to re-purpose city centre roadspace, and any plans for a bypass should include plans for such a re-purposing.


  • #521
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Aard wrote: »
    The problem with removing traffic from the city centre is that vacant road space tends to fill up (over the course of a few months to a couple of years) until it is back to the original congestion level. This is proven. The only way to ensure the continued removal of traffic from near the city centre is to remove a commensurate amount of roadspace as has been provided by the bypass. This can be done by re-purposing roadspace to buslanes, cycle lanes, removal of lanes in multi-lane roads, tightening junctions to make them more pedestrian friendly, increasing the length of the "green man" at lights around the centre, creating no-through-routes for cars (done extensively in Vancouver and the Netherlands for example), or a combination of the lot. Building a bypass is an incredible opportunity to re-purpose city centre roadspace, and any plans for a bypass should include plans for such a re-purposing.
    100% agree with this.


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  • #522
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Simple?

    No actually:


    PS: can you define "most practical" please?

    Yes actually.
    It's a by pass, it will remove unnecessary traffic from the city centre. Simple.
    This in turn will leave room to make better use of the the existing road / street network regarding public transport, cycling etc.


  • #523
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    serfboard wrote: »
    No. As I said "these ... can, and should, be mitigated."

    Unintended consequences refers to uses which cannot reasonably be foreseen.



    So should we be hoping instead that such off-label uses of a "bypass" will actually be "mitigated"?

    In the Irish 'planning' context?

    And what forms might such "mitigation" take?

    It's already perfectly obvious what the punters want to use the Galway "outer bypass" for. They've been telling us over and over for quite some time now: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85750010&postcount=495


  • #524
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Aard wrote: »
    Building a bypass is an incredible opportunity to re-purpose city centre roadspace, and any plans for a bypass should include plans for such a re-purposing.
    galwayrush wrote: »
    Yes actually.
    It's a by pass, it will remove unnecessary traffic from the city centre. Simple.
    This in turn will leave room to make better use of the the existing road / street network regarding public transport, cycling etc.



    Can you answer the question regarding why the "simple" solution of a bypass has apparently not worked in Waterford?

    And are these descriptions of a "bypass" and of "unnecessary traffic"?
    "The GCOB will take away ... cross town traffic to & from Knocknacarra and environs"

    "probably take a big chunk of the traffic originating in Knocknacarra"

    "people living in Salthill/Knocknacarra ... working on the eastern side of the city"

    "Kingston Road, Bishop O'Donnell Road, Knocknacarra ... need the bypass now"

    "it's about moving large volumes of people around Galway city from both inside AND outside the city area"

    .


  • #525
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    What is your magic solution then? It obviously doesn't involve a by pass.


  • #526
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    galwayrush wrote: »
    What is your magic solution then? It obviously doesn't involve a by pass.



    I'm questioning assumptions here, genuinely.

    Can I have your views on the issues raised, eg re "unnecessary traffic", who's going to use the Galway "bypass" and how, the "simple" (non-)solution of the Waterford Bypass etc.

    These are important considerations, imo.


  • #527
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I'm questioning assumptions here, genuinely.

    Can I have your views on the issues raised, eg re "unnecessary traffic", who's going to use the Galway "bypass", the "simple" (non-)solution of the Waterford Bypass etc.

    These are important considerations, imo.

    Obviously for through traffic that does not need to go to near the city centre, but at the moment have no choice in the matter.
    I'll admit quite a lot of traffic that would use it would do so to get from the West of the city to the industrial estates on the East, but is this a bad thing?

    Regarding the Waterford by pass, speaking to friends there. the biggest problem there is the cost of the toll. Reading the Connacht Tribune today, the toll between Loughrea and Ballinasloe is experiencing something similar. Considering the Government pick up any shortfall in revenue for the toll operators and the cost of running the operation, why toll at all?

    There is the fear that the bypass will lead to vast areas being opened for development in the future, but that's a problem for the planners . Perhaps planned satellite developments along the motorway would be better than the badly planned sprawl we've experienced in recent decades?


  • #528
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    galwayrush wrote: »
    There is the fear that the bypass will lead to vast areas being opened for development in the future, but that's a problem for the planners . Perhaps planned satellite developments along the motorway would be better than the badly planned sprawl we've experienced in recent decades?
    It is for this reason that I would advocate pushing the bypass as close to the city as possible. It might help to reduce leapfrog development that way. Even better would be if the new motorway could be woven into the existing urban fabric. This would allow for the densification of existing sprawl, rather than just ignoring the existing sprawl and promising to build more densely in the future way out of town.


  • #529
    yer man!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭yer man!


    Aard wrote: »
    It is for this reason that I would advocate pushing the bypass as close to the city as possible. It might help to reduce leapfrog development that way. Even better would be if the new motorway could be woven into the existing urban fabric. This would allow for the densification of existing sprawl, rather than just ignoring the existing sprawl and promising to build more densely in the future way out of town.

    Well the plans are already pretty close to the city as it is, otherwise a lot of demolition would need to happen which would piss more people off...


  • #530
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Obviously for through traffic that does not need to go to near the city centre, but at the moment have no choice in the matter.

    Please bear in mind that I'm still questioning assumptions here. Through traffic that has no alternative but to go through the city at present: that would be bypass material for sure. So we're talking long-distance traffic with destinations far to the East or West of Galway? If so, fair enough.

    galwayrush wrote: »
    I'll admit quite a lot of traffic that would use it would do so to get from the West of the city to the industrial estates on the East, but is this a bad thing?

    It's perfectly obvious that major demand for a "bypass" in Galway City is coming from commuters, and that they'd like to be able to use it to get from Kingston-Knocknacarra-Rahoon and environs to Parkmore-Ballybrit and adjacent areas.

    Questioning assumptions again: is this a good thing? If so, why?


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Regarding the Waterford by pass, speaking to friends there. the biggest problem there is the cost of the toll. Reading the Connacht Tribune today, the toll between Loughrea and Ballinasloe is experiencing something similar. Considering the Government pick up any shortfall in revenue for the toll operators and the cost of running the operation, why toll at all?

    As the Kilkenny People report stated, in 2011 a large number of motorists still regarded it as easier to go through a city centre regarded as critically congested rather than pay €1.90 (each way) to use the bypass. Only 2000 of them apparently felt that sitting in traffic along the quays and over the Rice Bridge was worse that paying the toll.

    Here's a beauty of a comment regarding motorists' choice of whether to use the bypass or take the congested cross-town route: "€20 per week [in your pocket] or 20 minutes extra in bed... which would you go for?"

    So it seems that in Waterford traffic through the city is so bad that it justifies a €500 million bypass but not so bad that motorists are unwilling to put up with it for the sake of not having to fork out €1.90. What does that tell us about economics and motoring behaviour, I wonder?

    The state, i.e. the general taxpayer, compensates toll operators for shortfalls in revenue if a road scheme is underutilised. On the other hand, a toll is pay-per-use, so those who avail of the facility and benefit from its Level of Service contribute directly to the costs of constructing and operating it.

    galwayrush wrote: »
    There is the fear that the bypass will lead to vast areas being opened for development in the future, but that's a problem for the planners . Perhaps planned satellite developments along the motorway would be better than the badly planned sprawl we've experienced in recent decades?

    IIRC retail parks were specifically factored into the Waterford Bypass proposal. That's planning for car dependence, imo.

    What Irish "planners" do is a problem for our society, now and for the next generations. They haven't done a great job so far, imo.

    So again is that the best we can hope for: planned car-dependent sprawl rather than the unplanned variety?


  • #531
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Aard wrote: »
    It is for this reason that I would advocate pushing the bypass as close to the city as possible. It might help to reduce leapfrog development that way. Even better would be if the new motorway could be woven into the existing urban fabric. This would allow for the densification of existing sprawl, rather than just ignoring the existing sprawl and promising to build more densely in the future way out of town.




    So is the GCOB a "bypass" or a "ring road"?


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  • #532
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The state, i.e. the general taxpayer, compensates toll operators for shortfalls in revenue if a road scheme is underutilised.
    Apart from the M3 (Navan "bypass") and N18 (Limerick "bypass") schemes, where else does this happen?

    For instance, it does not happen on the M6, which is why the toll operator is in trouble.


  • #533
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    So is the GCOB a "bypass" or a "ring road"?
    Very good question. I am coming at this from all angles, trying to see every side. I have no vested interests in Galway, and am not biased. You are absolutely correct in that there are a variety of needs/wants facilitated by a new road, not all of them intended.

    I don't like to get too bogged down in semantics, which is why I just like to refer to it as "the new motorway". If it were a true bypass, there would be no intersections between the N6 in the far east, and the N59 in the west. But that's not going to happen (nor should it IMO).


  • #534
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    serfboard wrote: »
    Apart from the M3 (Navan "bypass") and N18 (Limerick "bypass") schemes, where else does this happen?

    For instance, it does not happen on the M6, which is why the toll operator is in trouble.



    Fair enough.

    My earlier comment was really in response to a remark made that "the Government" picks up the tab. Where private interests are compensated it's the tax-payer who coughs up.

    In all likelihood the Galway Outer "Bypass" will be tolled. Whether or not the toll operator has a compensation clause, a toll will have an interesting effect on usage of the "bypass" by Galway commuters, don't you think?


  • #535
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Aard wrote: »
    Very good question. I am coming at this from all angles, trying to see every side. I have no vested interests in Galway, and am not biased. You are absolutely correct in that there are a variety of needs/wants facilitated by a new road, not all of them intended.

    I don't like to get too bogged down in semantics, which is why I just like to refer to it as "the new motorway". If it were a true bypass, there would be no intersections between the N6 in the far east, and the N59 in the west. But that's not going to happen (nor should it IMO).



    I can't remember whether I ever posted the specific text and link below, but when I stated something similar it was shot down as being estate-agent flummery or some such. I doubt that's what it is, though clearly the Celtic Casino collapse has put a stop to their gallop. Their thinking, and their long-term influence, hasn't gone away you know.
    GALWAY CITY OUTER BYPASS
    The next phase will be the GCOB, the Galway City Outer Bypass, which involves the construction of 27km of roadway including the fifth bridge over the Corrib estimated to cost in the region of €340 million. The C.P.O. process has already begun on the road, which will commence at Briarhill/Garraun, continue north where it will cross the Tuam Road (N17) at Two Mile Ditch, travel in a westerly direction where there will be a major intersection at Ballindooley with the N84 Headford road.

    This will open up access for areas like Corrandulla, Headford, etc. It will then continue west where it will cross over a new bridge on the Corrib at Menlo (this is very significant as it will be the 5th bridge over the Corrib), then continuing in a westerly direction towards Bushypark and dissecting Glenlo Abbey Golf Club, before crossing over the Moycullen Road (Junction A – benefiting Moycullen, Oughterard, etc.) and turning further west bypassing Knocknacarra and then emerging on the west side of Barna. It will be a dual-carriage and will be equivalent to a ring road around on the west/northern side of Galway City.

    This has huge implications for all of Galway. First of all, it will make commuting time from all of these areas much more accessible, creating serious opportunities for land development and providing further opportunities for house buyers, warehouses, commercial buildings, shopping centres and park and ride. Bearing in mind the continuation of the provision of the infrastructural services like sewer, water, energy and roads which will open up enormous development potential.

    It is possible that in some of these outline [sic] locations that a new shopping centre can be built to rival the likes of Liffey Valley. The ideal location would be somewhere off the N6 close to the connection of the N17 and N18 and this would ideally provide 200 shops, anchor tenants and parking for 5000 cars. It would avoid some seepage of shoppers to outline [sic] areas like Athlone and Liffey Valley.


  • #536
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    I'm questioning assumptions here, genuinely.
    It wasn't until you made this statement here that I got where you're coming from. And it is absolutely fair game to question the need for it thoroughly. For instance:
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    It's perfectly obvious that major demand for a "bypass" in Galway City is coming from commuters, and that they'd like to be able to use it to get from Kingston-Knocknacarra-Rahoon and environs to Parkmore-Ballybrit and adjacent areas.

    Questioning assumptions again: is this a good thing? If so, why?
    Absolutely not. West-East commuters, whose cars will spend all day sitting in a car park in Ballybrit, should be using public transport. What cross-town services operate for these commuters at present, though?

    And, as I've often said before, what f**kin eejits would zone Industrial Areas on one side of a river, and large residential areas on another side of a river, and have no public transport between them?

    Which leads onto another point. I agree with your lack of faith in planning in this country. However, I wouldn't blame planners - the blame, IMO, lies squarely with politicians who are "influenced" by vested-interest developers and landowners. And the blame for politicians is ourselves, who continually elect the same gombeen gobsh1tes.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Please bear in mind that I'm still questioning assumptions here. Through traffic that has no alternative but to go through the city at present: that would be bypass material for sure. So we're talking long-distance traffic with destinations far to the East or West of Galway? If so, fair enough.
    Good. Some agreement.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    In all likelihood the Galway Outer "Bypass" will be tolled. Whether or not the toll operator has a compensation clause, a toll will have an interesting effect on usage of the "bypass" by Galway commuters, don't you think?

    I'll answer that with your own quote:
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    As the Kilkenny People report stated, in 2011 a large number of motorists still regarded it as easier to go through a city centre regarded as critically congested rather than pay €1.90 (each way) to use the bypass. Only 2000 of them apparently felt that sitting in traffic along the quays and over the Rice Bridge was worse that paying the toll.

    Here's a beauty of a comment regarding motorists' choice of whether to use the bypass or take the congested cross-town route: "€20 per week [in your pocket] or 20 minutes extra in bed... which would you go for?"

    So it seems that in Waterford traffic through the city is so bad that it justifies a €500 million bypass but not so bad that motorists are unwilling to put up with it for the sake of not having to fork out €1.90. What does that tell us about economics and motoring behaviour, I wonder?
    If f**kin eejits value 20 minutes of their own time at less than 2 Euro, then that really says a lot about them.

    I'm not sure that the bypass in Galway will be tolled, though.


  • #537
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    What effect would a toll on the Galway "bypass" have?

    And when the "bypass" is built what would motivate people commuting west-east to use public transport?

    By the way, €20 in the pocket versus 20 minutes in bed is an example of a change in driving behaviour when supply-side measures are introduced.

    When a shiny new road is provided, cutting travel time, how do motorists respond? And how is that influenced by cost factors, such as a toll? Clearly in Waterford City some people prefer to get up twenty minutes earlier to save the price of a toll, whereas others are willing to pay for the privilege of leaving for work later.

    Either way, they adapt their car use to suit the conditions and their personal preferences. Interesting that so many people complain about traffic congestion but still prefer it to the alternatives...


  • #538
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What effect would a toll on the Galway "bypass" have?
    I honestly can't say. And I don't think you can either. As someone who infrequently bypasses Limerick and Dublin, I use those tolls. But then, I value my time.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    And when the "bypass" is built what would motivate people commuting west-east to use public transport?
    Well, as I've said before, I believe in carrots and sticks. In Galway's case, IMO, it's:

    Carrots:
    • the bypass.
    • improved public transport
    • Park & Rides on/off all approach roads
    • constructing a bus lane on the full length of the Western Distributor Road (it's wide enough for it)
    Sticks:
    • Bus Lanes:
      • dedicating one lane of all dual-carriageways inside the outer bypass as Bus lanes (as is done on SQR).
      • closing either College Road or Lough Atalia (or one lane) to all except public transport.
    • Increased (doubling?) car parking charges
    • Possible consideration of congestion charging.
    We can see some semblance of what might be possible with free car parking in Oranmore train station. More of this please.


  • #539
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Aard wrote: »
    If it were a true bypass, there would be no intersections between the N6 in the far east, and the N59 in the west.
    Well, in fairness, the one planned at Ballindooley could still be allowed for a "true" bypass since this allows a connection to a national route (N84).


  • #540
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Interesting that so many people complain about traffic congestion but still prefer it to the alternatives...
    I heard a Dublin bus driver saying on the telly one night that there are some people for whom, if a bus pulled up right outside their door, and dropped them off right outside work, they'd still prefer to drive.

    I'd hate to see a situation develop in this country like what happens in the US where buses are considered the mode of transport for real "losers". Thankfully, I don't think we're like that here.


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  • #541
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    There has been a whole page of reasoned debate and discussion here without any name calling or taunts. I like it, it pleases me very much.


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