N6 - Galway outer bypass: Is it needed?

Iwannahurl

serfboard wrote: »

I heard a Dublin bus driver saying on the telly one night that there are some people for whom, if a bus pulled up right outside their door, and dropped them off right outside work, they'd still prefer to drive.

I'd hate to see a situation develop in this country like what happens in the US where buses are considered the mode of transport for real "losers".

Thankfully, I don't think we're like that here.

I wouldn't bet on it.

It would be very naive to think that a bypass is the start of a move towards mass use of public transport in Galway City.

serfboard

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It would be very naive to think that a bypass is the start of a move towards mass use of public transport in Galway City.

Don't worry - I'm not naive. That's why I advocate carrot and stick. After the carrots, congestion charging and/or €4/5/6 an hour car parking would shift people fairly fast.

After all, as you've acknowledged yourself (wrt toll-dodging), people will do anything to avoid having to pay more money.

And, OTOH, there will always be people who can afford to, and do, pay anything to use their car (cf. Dublin Port Tunnel car users at peak hours).

what_traffic

This is an interesting article, recently published in the IT from Paul Krugman. American Economist
"
How urban sprawl is stretching the land of opportunity to breaking point
"
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/world/how-urban-sprawl-is-stretching-the-land-of-opportunity-to-breaking-point-1.1478599

Can some of it's lessons be relevant here for Galway City?

galwayrush

The NRA have already scuppered Galwegians Rugby Club's plans to move to a location off the Moycullen road, they felt it would put pressure on the proposed link in the area connecting to the proposed by pass. Looks like planning close to the by pass exits/entrances will be quite restrictive.

I don't see any problem with commuters on the West side using it to commute to work each day, in turn, roads closer to the city centre could possibly be redesigned/ reclassified to include more bus lanes / less car lanes .
I don't see the by pass / orbital commuter route as the complete solution to our traffic problem , but I do believe it's a vital part of working towards a solution.

Iwannahurl

serfboard wrote: »

I honestly can't say. And I don't think you can either. As someone who infrequently bypasses Limerick and Dublin, I use those tolls. But then, I value my time.

Well, as I've said before, I believe in carrots and sticks. In Galway's case, IMO, it's:

Carrots:

• the bypass.
• improved public transport
• Park & Rides on/off all approach roads
• constructing a bus lane on the full length of the Western Distributor Road (it's wide enough for it)

Sticks:

• Bus Lanes:
  • dedicating one lane of all dual-carriageways inside the outer bypass as Bus lanes (as is done on SQR).
  • closing either College Road or Lough Atalia (or one lane) to all except public transport.
• Increased (doubling?) car parking charges
• Possible consideration of congestion charging.

We can see some semblance of what might be possible with free car parking in Oranmore train station. More of this please.

I had something a lot stronger written earlier (replete with damning quotes) but after seeing galwaycylist's post above, and its implicit request for moderate voices, I edited it PDQ!

Not directed at yourself, I hasten to add, but towards what I perceive as being very negative attitudes towards public transport as well as other non-PMV modes of travel. There are numerous examples of such disdain on Boards, typically contrasted with the superiority of private car use. It is taken as a given that, once a car has been (or is being) paid for, private transport is the way to go.

I'm doing my best to 'hedge' here, but I have to say that I feel very strongly that it is entirely misguided to believe that a "bypass" has any inherent qualities that will significantly boost the numbers travelling by public transport, on foot and by bike. With regard to push and pull factors, it is a major mistake to include the outer "bypass" under the heading of Carrot (for anything other than private car use).

A new high-capacity road facilitating commuters in the west of Galway City is classic supply-side stimulus for car use par excellence. To quote both galwaycyclist and David Bowie, it is putting out fire with gasoline.

Why in god's name would anyone take the bus from Kingston-Knocknacarra-Rahoon to, say, Parkmore, however excellent the service, when they know that they can stay at home a bit longer in the morning, hop into their car outside their front door, nip up the Western Distributor Road onto the "bypass" and be across to the other side of the city in 10-15 minutes?

People value that 'freedom' -- especially once they've invested heavily in it -- far more than they do any wider concerns about transportation policy, sustainability, the greater good etc. I would go as far as to say that, in the present context, most motorists don't give anything else other than their own comfort and convenience a second thought. Why would one own a car other than to use it? Why would one demand the provision of a service other than to avail of it to ones best personal advantage? Motorists may well be the same as every other human being in that regard, but the key difference is that the cumulative decisions of thousands of motorists have profound and far-reaching negative effects.

I believe there are two diametrically opposite perspectives here. The Supply Side approach, in my view, aims to take 'external' traffic out of the city by means of a bypass in order to facilitate motorists who don't need to go through the centre. The problem here is that any increased capacity on roads within the city also becomes a Supply Side stimulus for 'internal' traffic, whether that's the school run, shopping expeditions or just rat-running to avoid the toll if there is one. Some of that increased car travel may be due to "the law of unintended consequences" but for vested interests it is a desirable outcome not a side effect.

The Demand Side approach, I would argue, seeks to reduce or eliminate unnecessary 'internal' traffic in the city in order to facilitate (a) necessary external traffic and (b) more sustainable modes of travel in and through the city.

A true bypass could be used sustainably as part of a suite of coherent measures to massively overhaul traffic and transportation policy in Galway City and County, but I do not believe this is what is envisaged.

This country has been strongly emphasising Supply Side measures for car travel over several decades, and it is utterly unrealistic to expect that public transport, walking and cycling will bloom when a major restriction on car use (i.e. lack of road capacity) is lifted.

Once a bypass is opened the brakes will be off (though a toll would significantly complicate the picture, as in Waterford) and it will be very hard to rein in car use after that. There won't be much of a carrot to play with.

galwayrush wrote: »

I don't see any problem with commuters on the West side using it to commute to work each day, in turn, roads closer to the city centre could possibly be redesigned/ reclassified to include more bus lanes / less car lanes .

Once the currently car-dependent residents of Kingston, Knocknacarra, Rahoon and Barna have a new high-capacity commuter route at their disposal, who's going to fill the buses and bike lanes?

It won't be them, that's for sure. It will be extremely hard to use the stick in a post-bypass scenario, because one way or another effective TDM interventions are seen by a goodly chunk of motorists as "really oppressive, punitive anti-car measures".

I would argue that the time to get the public used to both carrot and stick is in the lacuna before a bypass materialises (if one ever does). There are imperative reasons of over-riding public interest for doing so.

.

SeanW

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Speaking for myself, I have no hidden agenda.

This particular claim would be easier to believe if it were not totally belied by every single transport related post in your history.

I have stated my view clearly that there is a high risk that the GCOB could lead to more car use within Galway City, not less.

And we are expected to believe that your skepticism of the Galway Bypass has absolutely no connection whatsoever to do with your other frequently posted very hostile views on motoring? Are you serious?

SeanW

Iwannahurl wrote: »

It will be extremely hard to use the stick in a post-bypass scenario

And from your position, that I suspect is the ultimate fear. The utter terror you must feel that you might have difficulty using the stick against motorists. I can understand why you would want to prevent such a situation at any cost.

because one way or another effective TDM interventions are seen by a goodly chunk of motorists as "really oppressive, punitive anti-car measures".

Perhaps because the things you advocate are just that?

I would argue that the time to get the public used to both carrot and stick is in the lacuna before a bypass materialises (if one ever does).

The fact that you would penalise motorists for going through the city - for the sole reason that they have no other option - says everything that needs to be said about your position.

There are imperative reasons of over-riding public interest for doing so.

On what planet?

Iwannahurl

what_traffic wrote: »

This is an interesting article, recently published in the IT from Paul Krugman. American Economist
"
How urban sprawl is stretching the land of opportunity to breaking point
"
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/world/how-urban-sprawl-is-stretching-the-land-of-opportunity-to-breaking-point-1.1478599

Can some of it's lessons be relevant here for Galway City?

Thanks. I spotted that in the Irish Times business supplement on Tuesday. It's also in the NY Times.

The Equality of Opportunity Project he refers to is here: http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/

This broad topic has also been the subject of research and analysis by the likes of Thad Williamson and Robert Davis.

monument

Re carrot and stick:

There's so much "carrot" that needs doing in Galway -- basic things like safe pedestrian crossing and joint-up cycle routes where there is room -- that it's nearly premature to be taking about "stick".

glyons

galwaycyclist wrote: »

There has been a whole page of reasoned debate and discussion here without any name calling or taunts. I like it, it pleases me very much.

just saw this , are u having a laugh did you write this while drinking your tea and eating your scones? it pleases me very much....jesus!

serfboard

monument wrote: »

There's so much "carrot" that needs doing in Galway -- basic things like safe pedestrian crossing and joint-up cycle routes where there is room

Yep. And more cross-town West-East bus routes, and more Park & Rides on the outskirts ... we could go on I know ...

WRT pedestrian crossings (and for bike traffic as well), the replacement of the roundabouts with lights should make things better.

Iwannahurl

Some of the above measures are being implemented, despite opposition from certain quarters.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056327459
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056452180
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056216631
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055671954

Projects aimed at significantly improving the LOS for public transport, walking and cycling need to be augmented and fast-tracked (iropi and all that).

veryangryman

Just back from city.

I wonder if the Relief road (the 2 lane sections specifically) could be made into bus lanes in 1 lane.

For me (Dublin a good example), seeing a bus fly by while you sit in car in grinding traffic does encourage one to take it. My thinking is that many would take the option if it was there. Airport park and ride might get much more passengers.

Yes i know it fks things up for the motorist who has to use the road, but it would help alot with only those who need to drive actually doing it.

Thoughts

Gabezmail

I live in Knocknacarra and run in to work in the city everyday. You should all try it. Increases your lifespan and sex drive...

galwaytt

Look: I live (& work in Athenry), and my SO in Eyre Square. Given the choice of going in to Galway for something in the car - say on a Thursday or Friday I'd..............go to Ballinasloe or Athlone instead. Easier, faster. Why ? Motorway.

That said, SO has no choice but to commute by car as a)the train fare is simply more expensive than running the car and b) she cannot access taxsaver fares. So, if we're forking out €951 p.a. for motor tax, why on earth would you NOT use it ?

what_traffic

It's not needed according to the proposed route outlined here.
http://www.n6galwaycity.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/GCOB-SK-R-326_EPRC_Bulletin-6-08052015.pdf

Iwannahurl

galwaytt wrote: »

So, if we're forking out €951 p.a. for motor tax, why on earth would you NOT use it ?

Because Galway City is in a constant state of near-total gridlock (allegedly)?

Mrs OBumble

galwaytt wrote: »

SO has no choice but to commute by car as a)the train fare is simply more expensive than running the car and b) she cannot access taxsaver fares. So, if we're forking out €951 p.a. for motor tax, why on earth would you NOT use it ?

How does it compare with the BusLink fares?

what_traffic

Public meeting in the Clayton Hotel this evening.

http://connachttribune.ie/public-meeting-to-discuss-impact-of-proposed-city-bypass/

SeanW

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Because Galway City is in a constant state of near-total gridlock (allegedly)?

Total gridlock doesn't stop people driving, neither does screwing motorists with taxes. People just plan their lives around the traffic, and make sacrifices elsewhere to pay the taxes.

A reminder of how well not having enough roads disincentives "induced demand":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1dUc3zKJHU