Being approached in the pub when you don't want to be

Frito · 31-07-2013 07:16PM

Pug160 wrote: »

No one is telling women to stop going to bars, some of us are suggesting that all you can do is compromise

You sure about that? I recall in post 93 you querying why a poster is going to a bar as a venue, or certain bars, if they're getting unwanted attention.

I may be wrong, but I'm not picking up from posters here that unwanted attention is occurring every single time they go out. Or even half the time. Why then (when weighing up the pros and cons) is it a sensible suggestion to not go to a certain place, or places, ever, in order to avoid a situation that doesn't happen often? Quite the over-reaction to me.

Pug160 · 31-07-2013 07:21PM

Frito wrote: »

You sure about that? I recall in post 93 you querying why a poster is going to a bar as a venue, or certain bars, if they're getting unwanted attention.

I may be wrong, but I'm not picking up from posters here that unwanted attention is occurring every single time they go out. Or even half the time. Why then (when weighing up the pros and cons) is it a sensible suggestion to not go to a certain place, or places, ever, in order to avoid a situation that doesn't happen often? Quite the over-reaction to me.

Well that would depend on how important it was to not be disturbed. If that was the priority then compromise would be almost a necessity. I have no idea how often it happens to the average girl, I was just responding with logical advice. I got the impression from some posts that's it's sometimes more than just a slight annoyance. No overreaction here, I'm just responding to what I am reading.

Frito · 31-07-2013 07:42PM

Then I think you've misunderstood the purpose of the thread, or perhaps misunderstand the priority of the posters. Overall, I don't think posters are asking for opinions on how to avoid being harassed, but wondering how many others this happens to and how they manage it.

fits · 31-07-2013 07:45PM

Frito wrote: »

..... and how they manage it.

I was in a club in Dublin sitting at a table chatting to a friend last weekend after longitude. Some dude comes over and sits in the armchair beside me.
"Where are you from?" he said
"Carlow" I said

And with that, without another word, he got up and walked off. :pac:

Fox_In_Socks · 31-07-2013 09:18PM

This thread actually reflects what happens when someone doesn't take the hint and leave a group of people who are chatting alone.

The fellows saying that the women should be meeting in resterants/cafes/tea houses/knitting societies and not going to pubs they like, are so persistent and circular.

Take the hint, I say.:P:pac:

old hippy · 01-08-2013 05:57AM

Over the years, I've wondered if the attitude towards women back home stems from a deeper well. We see how the male dominated church shows its contempt for women, how the anti-abortion lobby wants to decide (in an almost Taliban fashion) how women's bodies should be governed. We recently witnessed a male TD fondle a female TD and in some quarters it was treated as just a big laugh. Then there's the violence against women committed every single day. There's a hatred for women that seems to pervade threads on AH - fat women, teasing women, promiscuous women, women who wear too much make up, foreign women etc ad nauseum.

Of course, Ireland wasn't always like that but there's no point in getting misty eyed for the days of Brehon Law or even before that, the matriarchal societies and worship of the goddess. We could trace the current woes back to the isolation of Ireland and Dev's comely maidens and the rapid enslavement of women to the horrors of the laundries. That would be a start. There's something wrong in the male psyche that we just don't see women as equals.

Once we accept the idea of equality - it's not all that terrifying - we can make quantum leaps towards a better society. Where men can still be men but not cave men.

OldNotWIse · 01-08-2013 08:44AM

In a pub on Monday (roll on college resuming lol) and this guy came over supposedly to pet my dog (maddening!) and he said, "oh pretend to be introducing yourself to me so she will be ok with me" and so I shook his hand (its actually remarkably difficult to not shake an extended hand!) and then he said, "you have to tell me your name" and I was like, "er...why? You dont need to know my name to pet the dog"...ffs He was fourth or fifth too, and we were there less than an hour. My dog is sitting in my lap going, "who are all these weirdo men rubbing my ears and waving their hands in my face and shouting at me??"

It's just amazing the amount of people who will not go away!!!!!! I hate being rude and cranky etc but you almost have to be sometimes! Sitting outside a pub clearly having a private conversation with the OH and just constantly being hassled with stupid, random drivel

I would now fully support a "traffic light" system or anything where we could just out up a sign saying "I'm not interested. You know I'm not interested, now would ya ever fuuck off"

Amirani · 01-08-2013 10:05AM

fits wrote: »

I was in a club in Dublin sitting at a table chatting to a friend last weekend after longitude. Some dude comes over and sits in the armchair beside me.
"Where are you from?" he said
"Carlow" I said

And with that, without another word, he got up and walked off. :pac:

Brilliant.

kylith · 01-08-2013 11:23AM

old hippy wrote: »

Over the years, I've wondered if the attitude towards women back home stems from a deeper well. We see how the male dominated church shows its contempt for women, how the anti-abortion lobby wants to decide (in an almost Taliban fashion) how women's bodies should be governed. We recently witnessed a male TD fondle a female TD and in some quarters it was treated as just a big laugh. Then there's the violence against women committed every single day. There's a hatred for women that seems to pervade threads on AH - fat women, teasing women, promiscuous women, women who wear too much make up, foreign women etc ad nauseum.
...
Once we accept the idea of equality - it's not all that terrifying - we can make quantum leaps towards a better society. Where men can still be men but not cave men.

I was thinking about this, and I think you're right about it being a case of a proprietorial attitude toward women; a man believes that it is his right to determine how a woman spends her time; if he deigns to pay attention to her he feels that she is required to give her attention to him. It's kind of like the 'friendzone' problem where a guy thinks that being nice to a girl should result in a relationship; that him giving her friendship entitles him to sex. The same way that some men think that because a woman is dressed a certain way he is entitled to place his hands on her, or to force her into a sexual act because she's dressed 'like a slut'.

As we've seen here, the attitudes don't seem set to change soon: we've had plenty of men tell us to go to gay bars, restaurants, or cafes like it's some kind of reasonable solution, but I can't bring any to mind who said 'I never realised I might be doing this. I'll bear it in mind in future and encourage my friends to do the same' (though there was one guy who said it would make him less inclined to approach women at all). The onus is placed on us to alter our behaviour to fit the role in which men want us - that every woman in a pub is seeking male attention, and that women who do not want such attention should remove themselves to somewhere where men feel is 'appropriate'.

I feel like I'm doing some version of Godwinning here, bringing up rape above, and about to say this: It is not a million mile leap from saying that a woman should go to a restaurant if she wants to have a night out without men pestering her to saying that women should go out only in the company of a male family member to avoid predatory men, and that she should dress 'modestly' so as not to attract unwanted attention.

The attitude that a woman is responsible for avoiding these situations removes any obligation from men to police and moderate their own behaviour.

And no, I'm not talking about all men, but I really can't be bothered to take the time to de-generalise because I'm going for lunch.

ash23 · 01-08-2013 11:38AM

......

old hippy · 01-08-2013 11:42AM

ash23 wrote: »

quoted a post that was removed

Do you mean me? Is that not allowed? Sorry, Mod, I'll remove it in that case.

ash23 · 01-08-2013 11:46AM

old hippy wrote: »

Do you mean me? Is that not allowed? Sorry, Mod, I'll remove it in that case.

No sorry, I meant there was a post and I responded to it, quoting it. When I posted it had been removed, it wasn't very nice. So I deleted my own post then.

Sorry, I've probably just confused everything. I've edited my post again to clear it up.

old hippy · 01-08-2013 11:50AM

ash23 wrote: »

No sorry, I meant there was a post and I responded to it, quoting it. When I posted it had been removed, it wasn't very nice. So I deleted my own post then.

Sorry, I've probably just confused everything. I've edited my post again to clear it up.

Crumbs. I've just edited my post refering to an horrific post here yesterday. Oh well, you get the gist. I wonder if it was the same one?

ash23 · 01-08-2013 11:54AM

old hippy wrote: »

Crumbs. I've just edited my post refering to an horrific post here yesterday. Oh well, you get the gist. I wonder if it was the same one?

No, the one I quoted was just up and just deleted. So figured I'd err on the side of caution.

Anyway..................... maybe we should adopt an American approach when we're younger. Rather than teenagers thinking getting the shift is the be all and end all, maybe we should encourage them to date before the physical side of things come into play.
Irish people tend to get drunk and get physical and then decide to have a civilised date. So maybe we have it arseways and as a result, this persistent, dogged approach has stemmed from that.
Rather than teaching our kids how to be mannerly and ask out a person and be polite and take it from there, we're letting them to their own devices and it's resulting in yet another generation going out to the disco to lob the gob.

old hippy · 01-08-2013 12:00PM

ash23 wrote: »

No, the one I quoted was just up and just deleted. So figured I'd err on the side of caution.

Anyway..................... maybe we should adopt an American approach when we're younger. Rather than teenagers thinking getting the shift is the be all and end all, maybe we should encourage them to date before the physical side of things come into play.
Irish people tend to get drunk and get physical and then decide to have a civilised date. So maybe we have it arseways and as a result, this persistent, dogged approach has stemmed from that.
Rather than teaching our kids how to be mannerly and ask out a person and be polite and take it from there, we're letting them to their own devices and it's resulting in yet another generation going out to the disco to lob the gob.

To be fair, I believe the kids are always going to experiment and we should be educating them about protection and also to respect each other and not pressurise them into doing anything they don't want to.

Some of the teaching in the US I find a bit disturbing, you know - this evangelical virginity lark and pledging not to have sex until marriage.

Amirani · 01-08-2013 12:02PM

kylith wrote: »

I was thinking about this, and I think you're right about it being a case of a proprietorial attitude toward women; a man believes that it is his right to determine how a woman spends her time; if he deigns to pay attention to her he feels that she is required to give her attention to him. It's kind of like the 'friendzone' problem where a guy thinks that being nice to a girl should result in a relationship; that him giving her friendship entitles him to sex. The same way that some men think that because a woman is dressed a certain way he is entitled to place his hands on her, or to force her into a sexual act because she's dressed 'like a slut'.

Anyone who thinks either of these things are idiots. Unfortunately, many people are idiots.

As we've seen here, the attitudes don't seem set to change soon: we've had plenty of men tell us to go to gay bars, restaurants, or cafes like it's some kind of reasonable solution, but I can't bring any to mind who said 'I never realised I might be doing this. I'll bear it in mind in future and encourage my friends to do the same' (though there was one guy who said it would make him less inclined to approach women at all). The onus is placed on us to alter our behaviour to fit the role in which men want us - that every woman in a pub is seeking male attention, and that women who do not want such attention should remove themselves to somewhere where men feel is 'appropriate'.

I dislike this attitude also. Most people suggesting this aren't showing any form of empathy. I know I wouldn't limit myself in the places I could frequent because of a few idiots, so I don't know why they'd suggest it of others.

Perhaps if it was a certain bar that had a culture of this sort of thing with everyone there at it and the management didn't mind, then I'd advise staying away (and would stay away myself). However, that's not what this is. It's a small minority of people who are making a venue seem very uncomfortable for someone. It make much more sense for that minority to change their behaviour/go somewhere else.

The attitude that a woman is responsible for avoiding these situations removes any obligation from men to police and moderate their own behaviour.

Can't argue with that.

ash23 · 01-08-2013 12:51PM

old hippy wrote: »

To be fair, I believe the kids are always going to experiment and we should be educating them about protection and also to respect each other and not pressurise them into doing anything they don't want to.

Some of the teaching in the US I find a bit disturbing, you know - this evangelical virginity lark and pledging not to have sex until marriage.

Ah no, I'm not talking about favouring abstinence over education. Absolutely teach them to be safe and that sex is normal and healthy. I'm not even talking about sex. I'm talking about "courtship", about getting to that stage of being a couple and how to approach the topic.

In the dating culture, you meet someone, you speak to them and if you like them you ask to see them again. You exchange numbers and you go on a date. I've found as an older single person (in my 30s) this is the approach I now prefer. It's polite and respectful and dignified.

Whereas when I was in my teens and 20s, if you liked someone the best you could hope for was that you'd end up in the same club or at the same party, engage in some drunken chatting which would end in a snog. At that point you had no idea where you stood. Did they like you, did they want to see you again etc.....you just had to wait until the next party or night out and maybe end up with them again. People didn't date. They shifted and then maybe became an item.

I just think the dating way is more respectful and if this was the norm it would be far less socially acceptable for a guy or girl to try and pester someone into submission or to grab them or whatever. Or to wait until they were uninhibited through drink.

Frito · 01-08-2013 02:16PM

NiallSparky wrote: »

I dislike this attitude also. Most people suggesting this aren't showing any form of empathy. I know I wouldn't limit myself in the places I could frequent because of a few idiots, so I don't know why they'd suggest it of others.

Obviously empathy plays a big part.

It frustrates me that the "do you want to be right, or do you want to be safe/happy/unharrassed?" 'logical precaution' is trotted out when discussing these sort of situations. I do wonder if underneath some of these responses there lies a mindset of "so you're a feminist, and you want to have it all? Well let's see how your ideology protects you in the real world, ha!" Suspicious of me, yes, and potentially incorrect.

It's not unreasonable to assert that harrassment is the fault of the harasser, and to expect the onus of behaviour modification to lie with the harasser. And it's particularly because certain individuals don't get this, that everyone needs to say it. Hopefully then the ideology becomes second nature.

KamiKazeKitten · 01-08-2013 02:41PM

Ah this! This drives me mad!

It's not the approaching as such - I actually like being approached, and if I'm not interested I'll say so nicely. Takes a lot of guts (or alcohol) to approach someone, after all.

The one thing that really irritates me is the guys who won't take no for an answer.
"Sorry, not interested" "Ya bítch"
"I have a boyfriend" "Oh really? Where is he then?"

And the amount of guys I've seen recently demanding a girls number, and when she gives them a fake number ringing it right then and there, and getting more up in their face...or not listening to a girl when she says to go away, but listening to a guy. I remember one time in the Porterhouse I quite literally had my palm up, with a pretty persistent guy rebounding off it and then staggering back up again. All the while I was looking for a bouncer, until a pretty big guy took pity, walked up to me, wrapped an arm round my waist and said "you bothering my girl?" to the guy. Never seen a man retreat so fast.

And I see this happening to my lad mates sometimes too - a pack of women diving on one poor fecker. 9 times out of 10 they don't know what to make of it.

Pug160 · 01-08-2013 04:32PM

kylith wrote: »

As we've seen here, the attitudes don't seem set to change soon: we've had plenty of men tell us to go to gay bars, restaurants, or cafes like it's some kind of reasonable solution, but I can't bring any to mind who said 'I never realised I might be doing this. I'll bear it in mind in future and encourage my friends to do the same' (though there was one guy who said it would make him less inclined to approach women at all). The onus is placed on us to alter our behaviour to fit the role in which men want us - that every woman in a pub is seeking male attention, and that women who do not want such attention should remove themselves to somewhere where men feel is 'appropriate'.

I feel like I'm doing some version of Godwinning here, bringing up rape above, and about to say this: It is not a million mile leap from saying that a woman should go to a restaurant if she wants to have a night out without men pestering her to saying that women should go out only in the company of a male family member to avoid predatory men, and that she should dress 'modestly' so as not to attract unwanted attention.

The attitude that a woman is responsible for avoiding these situations removes any obligation from men to police and moderate their own behaviour.

And no, I'm not talking about all men, but I really can't be bothered to take the time to de-generalise because I'm going for lunch.

No one has been telling anybody to do anything. It was merely suggested that there are lots of different venues to go to if a change of scenery is desired. I, as a man, have no control over what some other men do. It is not my responsibility any more than it is yours. If a person has reached adulthood and has etiquette problems, then I think the horse has already bolted. That's a societal problem, exacerbated by our drink culture. You'd like us to encourage our friends to behave better towards women? I'm sure you mean well, but do you not realise how unbelievably patronising that sounds? That's exactly the sort of literature I've read from certain types of feminists. And it's that sort of condescending finger pointing that makes a lot of men feel alienated. Where do you think these badly behaved men come from? They grew up with mothers, sisters, aunts and other women, just as much as they grew up with male figures. If they're lacking in any way then any blame must be distributed evenly - primarily on society as a whole I would have thought.

I'm scratching my head about some of your theories here. I have personally never advised any girl to go out with a male for protection or suggested they wear more clothes. That would be extremely patronising. Also, you're replacing suggestions made by men with the word ''should'', which in a discussion is a little bit of an underhanded tactic. No one has ever said you should do anything. I might be inclined to avoid certain places myself if I just wanted a quiet night without any hassle. But I wouldn't see that as repression, I'd just see that as making a personal decision to avoid a potential situation I didn't want to be in on that particular night. Treating all men like naughty little schoolboys is not going to help anyone's cause. Believing that all men are the same is not going to help either. I'm fully aware that lots of women don't go out for the benefit of men. Some men also just like going out to unwind and enjoy themselves and sometimes stay within their own company.

Daveysil15 · 01-08-2013 04:43PM

old hippy wrote: »

There's something wrong in the male psyche that we just don't see women as equals.

So do you understand the psyche of all males now? Not all guys think like this.

kylith wrote: »

The onus is placed on us to alter our behaviour to fit the role in which men want us - that every woman in a pub is seeking male attention, and that women who do not want such attention should remove themselves to somewhere where men feel is 'appropriate'.

I don't think it is. Usually when men talk about approaching women and encountering rudeness or difficulty when trying to initiate a conversation, its nearly always the men that are told to work on their approach.

As was pointed out already, its difficult for women to win because if they're polite and reciprocate the chat then they're accussed of leading the guy on. If they say no straight away then they're stuck up, so how exactly are they supposed to alter their behaviour?

It's men that usually do the approaching so obviously they're doing something wrong, or not, whatever the case may be.

old hippy · 01-08-2013 04:48PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

So do you understand the psyche of all males now? Not all guys think like this.

I think this has already been made clear that not all men think like this. I am referring to those that do. I presumed that was a given.

rainbowtrout · 01-08-2013 05:43PM

Pug160 wrote: »

. I, as a man, have no control over what some other men do. It is not my responsibility any more than it is yours. If a person has reached adulthood and has etiquette problems, then I think the horse has already bolted. That's a societal problem, exacerbated by our drink culture. You'd like us to encourage our friends to behave better towards women? I'm sure you mean well, but do you not realise how unbelievably patronising that sounds?

It's not like that. I was out one night wearing a knee length dress and I was sober. I was ordering drinks at the bar in the pub I was in when I felt a hand go up under my dress. I turned around and told the guy to fcuk off. I turned back to the bar. A few seconds later he tried it again this time trying to get his hand into my underwear. This time I turned around and belted him across the face. It was my only defence I felt. Of course his reaction was 'what's your problem, I'm only having a bit of fun' That's one idiot whose behaviour is completely inappropriate who was immediately putting the blame on me for not engaging in the craic with him even though he was in the wrong and entirely responsible for his actions.

However, he had four friends standing with him who stood there in complete silence while this confrontation happened. Now it's a slightly different scenario from the one that is being discussed here, but to the same ends. I wasn't expecting them to get all confrontational with him and start a row with him because of his behaviour but a 'that's not on, leave the girl alone' and pull him away to the other side of the pub might have been enough to modify his behaviour so he didn't try it with other women that night. Yes, he is an adult and no they are not his babysitters but they were out with him so had an opportunity to intervene, because at the end of the day their silence on the situation lends weight to what he was doing and signals to him that 'well my friends had no issue with it so it's ok to behave like this', so on the face of it the only person who had the problem was me, and he had already decided that there was no wrong on his side. If more lads were willing to pull their drunk friend away and say 'lets leave these ladies alone, they seem to be having a chat' it would go an awful long way to alleviate the problems that women have when approached by men who simply won't take the hint.

Daveysil15 · 01-08-2013 06:46PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's not like that. I was out one night wearing a knee length dress and I was sober. I was ordering drinks at the bar in the pub I was in when I felt a hand go up under my dress. I turned around and told the guy to fcuk off. I turned back to the bar. A few seconds later he tried it again this time trying to get his hand into my underwear. This time I turned around and belted him across the face. It was my only defence I felt. Of course his reaction was 'what's your problem, I'm only having a bit of fun' That's one idiot whose behaviour is completely inappropriate who was immediately putting the blame on me for not engaging in the craic with him even though he was in the wrong and entirely responsible for his actions.

What a twat. He deserved a smack. If I saw any of my male friends doing that I'd hit them a belt myself. How often does that sort of thing happen to you though? I'd be surprised if groping to that extent is a regular occurance, although I could be wrong. Maybe it depends on the place. I haven't seen much of it myself in the bars and clubs in my town.

In fairness to Pug, I think he was just offering a few suggestions, even if the thread isn't ostensibly about finding a soloution to the problem. He wasn't necessarily saying women should avoid going to bars, and nobody should have to avoid going to places they like because of a few muppets annoying them, but sometimes its just unavoidable.

Pug160 · 01-08-2013 06:56PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's not like that. I was out one night wearing a knee length dress and I was sober. I was ordering drinks at the bar in the pub I was in when I felt a hand go up under my dress. I turned around and told the guy to fcuk off. I turned back to the bar. A few seconds later he tried it again this time trying to get his hand into my underwear. This time I turned around and belted him across the face. It was my only defence I felt. Of course his reaction was 'what's your problem, I'm only having a bit of fun' That's one idiot whose behaviour is completely inappropriate who was immediately putting the blame on me for not engaging in the craic with him even though he was in the wrong and entirely responsible for his actions.

However, he had four friends standing with him who stood there in complete silence while this confrontation happened. Now it's a slightly different scenario from the one that is being discussed here, but to the same ends. I wasn't expecting them to get all confrontational with him and start a row with him because of his behaviour but a 'that's not on, leave the girl alone' and pull him away to the other side of the pub might have been enough to modify his behaviour so he didn't try it with other women that night. Yes, he is an adult and no they are not his babysitters but they were out with him so had an opportunity to intervene, because at the end of the day their silence on the situation lends weight to what he was doing and signals to him that 'well my friends had no issue with it so it's ok to behave like this', so on the face of it the only person who had the problem was me, and he had already decided that there was no wrong on his side. If more lads were willing to pull their drunk friend away and say 'lets leave these ladies alone, they seem to be having a chat' it would go an awful long way to alleviate the problems that women have when approached by men who simply won't take the hint.

It's possible that his friends were as bad as he was or he was the ringleader and they were afraid to speak up. There are just some nasty pieces of work out there unfortunately. I'd say the majority of lads would speak up (or more) if they saw something as obvious as that. The problem is that quite often people don't notice what's going on because they're engrossed in their own conversations or doing their own thing. Especially if it's non physical and just verbal. The majority of men would be disgusted by the sort of behaviour you have described. I've personally never seen anything as extreme as that, but if I did I'd do something - no question about it. I don't condone violence in most cases but if a woman turned around and broke a man's jaw for doing that I'd support it.

I don't know what people are experiencing but I think the vast majority of people are decent.

iwantmydinner · 01-08-2013 07:02PM

Pug160 wrote: »

...but I think the vast majority of people are decent.

That's without question true.

It's that small minority that can leave a really nasty taste in the mouth though; it can be difficult to know how to react or handle the situation; often I find myself annoyed at myself as well as the idiot for not handling the situation better.

Simply knowing other women go through the same thing and finding out how they reacted can be a huge comfort and can help prepare us better for the next time it happens. Because rare though it may be, it will happen again.

I'm really glad this thread has more or less come back on track.

Aineoil · 01-08-2013 07:11PM

Maybe I'm a bit simple or stupid.....or both

But doesn't it all have to do with manners or the lack of manners?

rainbowtrout · 01-08-2013 07:25PM

Daveysil15 wrote: »

What a twat. He deserved a smack. If I saw any of my male friends doing that I'd hit them a belt myself. How often does that sort of thing happen to you though? I'd be surprised if groping to that extent is a regular occurance, although I could be wrong. Maybe it depends on the place. I haven't seen much of it myself in the bars and clubs in my town.

In fairness to Pug, I think he was just offering a few suggestions, even if the thread isn't ostensibly about finding a soloution to the problem. He wasn't necessarily saying women should avoid going to bars, and nobody should have to avoid going to places they like because of a few muppets annoying them, but sometimes its just unavoidable.

There was a thread on here a few months ago about sexual assault. I think it was in the Ladies Lounge and sadly this kind of thing along with other groping incidents happens to women on a regular basis on a night out. That type of incident has never happened to me before or since, but 'casual sexual assault' particularly in pubs and clubs is a regular occurrence. While in no way the same as what we are talking about here, there are parallels with the type of men that we are talking about, the ones that won't leave women alone and blame women then who reject them/react negatively or in my case give them a slap.

rainbowtrout · 01-08-2013 07:40PM

Pug160 wrote: »

It's possible that his friends were as bad as he was or he was the ringleader and they were afraid to speak up. There are just some nasty pieces of work out there unfortunately. I'd say the majority of lads would speak up (or more) if they saw something as obvious as that. The problem is that quite often people don't notice what's going on because they're engrossed in their own conversations or doing their own thing. Especially if it's non physical and just verbal. The majority of men would be disgusted by the sort of behaviour you have described. I've personally never seen anything as extreme as that, but if I did I'd do something - no question about it. I don't condone violence in most cases but if a woman turned around and broke a man's jaw for doing that I'd support it.

I don't know what people are experiencing but I think the vast majority of people are decent.

Isn't that all it takes? Men to stand back and do nothing??? They were all standing behind him so he couldn't see their expressions but were facing me so I could, while they didn't say anything they didn't look like they approved, but still did nothing. They all looked relatively sober. It doesn't say much for them that four of them didn't have the balls to say anything to diffuse the situation, even if it was just to pull him away without going through the rights and wrongs of it. Put it this way, how far would he have had to go that night with a woman before they would have stepped in to stop it???

Most people would like to think they would step in, but in reality most people don't. How many times have you seen a fight on the street or in a pub, or a couple having a massive row after the nightclub which was aggressive but kept moving???

Look if a man crosses to the other side of the bar and tries it on with a woman and keeps persisting despite being rejected and his friends can't see him from where they are, then fair enough they can't do anything, but more often than not if there are a group of guys out and one of them is being an idiot, a lot will just look at their feet and drink their pints and make no eye contact, because the incident with me or any other woman is a two minute encounter with a random stranger, so leave me to look after myself, if they jump in and have a row or physical fight with a friend over it, there is a lot more to lose there for them, so they ignore it.

Many women have posted on here saying that when these kind of men persist in harassing them it's often a random guy from another group that comes to the rescue that doesn't know the guy. There can't be that many of these idiots going out on their own harassing women, some of them are going out with friends, so I'd find it hard to believe that none of their friends ever see their behaviour. I believe that they see it but choose to ignore it 'for the greater good of their friendship' not wanting to create bad blood even though the behaviour of their friend is completely inappropriate.

Honey-ec · 02-08-2013 08:58AM

Pug, you keep fixating on the venue, as if this only happens in one specific place and we all insist on going there anyway. The reality is, it can (and does) happen anywhere. So, I'm sorry, but no, it is not up to women to adjust our behaviour.

And I don't agree for one second that it's "patronising" to call your friends out on shitty behaviour. If one of my friends is being an arsehole to someone, I'll say it to them. Many of the changes for the better in our society came as a result of people refusing to turn a blind eye.

Being approached in the pub when you don't want to be

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