Would you be ashamed to say you were reared in a Council house?

anncoates · 31-07-2013 10:26AM

enda1 wrote: »

That's fine ignore the question. These discussion based internet forums don't really work with one way discussion. You must give a little too, not just take.

You can huff and puff and ignore my question if you wish.

My parents have always worked, as have many people that live in local authority housing.

As an authority on these matters, I'm sure you didn't blithely assume that everybody in local authority housing is on the dole, did you?

I own my own house now but I've worked no harder to pay for mine than my parents did to rent and then eventually buy theirs.

enda1 · 31-07-2013 10:31AM

anncoates wrote: »

You can huff and puff and ignore my question if you wish.

My parents have always worked, as have many people that live in local authority housing.

As an authority on these matters, I'm sure you didn't blithely assume that everybody in local authority housing is on the dole, did you?

I own my own house now but I've worked no harder to pay for mine than my parents did to rent and then eventually buy theirs.

I don't at all assume that everyone in social authority housing is on the dole.

I do however state that they are net takers from society.
All the income tax they pay, social contribution, VAT, TV license etc. does not add up to the costs the state incurs in caring for them via housing, medical care, police force etc.

philstar · 31-07-2013 10:39AM

you know as someone who had a very sheltered upbringing in a bungalow in a rural area.. i sometimes envy kids who grew up in council estates they have better interaction with other kids and its character building living a fuller life...i was bored for the most part

anncoates · 31-07-2013 10:46AM

enda1 wrote: »

I do however state that they are net takers from society.
All the income tax they pay, social contribution, VAT, TV license etc. does not add up to the costs the state incurs in caring for them via housing, medical care, police force etc.

I don't really understand what you mean. Are you talking about the relative subsidization element of local authority housing for working tenants?

Your point about medical care is invalid unless the people are in receipt of a medical card.

Your point about the police force...haven't a clue what you mean.

Anybody that is working is paying an amount of income tax commensurate with their income and so are contributing to the state in a proportional fashion. AFAIK, local authority rents are calculated against income so the more that working tenants earn, the more they pay in rent.

Plus the idea of state subsidy isn't confined to the low waged or unemployed. I work in a professional job and own a house but I also claim (or have claimed) mortgage interest relief, tax relief on many services, pension, and so on.

Collie D · 31-07-2013 10:48AM

enda1 wrote: »

I'm surprised so people would not be ashamed of their parents for being a 20+ year leach on the state. A short time I understand, but a lifetime?

enda1 wrote: »

Spelling. Well enjoy your one success in life.

I am surprised it took 4 pages in AH for someone with this nasty attitude to make an appearance.

enda1 wrote: »

I don't at all assume that everyone in social authority housing is on the dole.

I do however state that they are net takers from society.
All the income tax they pay, social contribution, VAT, TV license etc. does not add up to the costs the state incurs in caring for them via housing, medical care, police force etc.

You do realise that people in council houses actually pay rent to the council and more than likely over their lifetime have paid the value many times over. Also, medical care and policing are available to all - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here??

enda1 · 31-07-2013 10:54AM

Collie D wrote: »

I am surprised it took 4 pages in AH for someone with this nasty attitude to make an appearance.

You do realise that people in council houses actually pay rent to the council and more than likely over their lifetime have paid the value many times over. Also, medical care and policing are available to all - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here??

If you pay a private market rent you will never own the property no matter how many multiples of the "value" you've paid. The concept of paying a council "rent" and somehow feeling this equates to ownership if laughable. The reality is that its massively subsidised and in effect a debt is being incurred monthly which society pays and then society loses the down-paid investment in the property in the first place.

I never said that the services I mentioned are not available to everyone - my point was that some people net contribute to their provision while others don't.

shopaholic01 · 31-07-2013 10:57AM

enda1 wrote: »

I don't at all assume that everyone in social authority housing is on the dole.

I do however state that they are net takers from society.
All the income tax they pay, social contribution, VAT, TV license etc. does not add up to the costs the state incurs in caring for them via housing, medical care, police force etc.

You do assume that they are all happily a financial burden on the state though.

What are your feelings towards those who can't afford the mortgage on their privately owned home etc?

And no, I was not reared in a council estate, so that's not a viable counter argument for you.

shopaholic01 · 31-07-2013 10:59AM

enda1 wrote: »

If you pay a private market rent you will never own the property no matter how many multiples of the "value" you've paid. The concept of paying a council "rent" and somehow feeling this equates to ownership if laughable. The reality is that its massively subsidised and in effect a debt is being incurred monthly which society pays and then society loses the down-paid investment in the property in the first place.

I never said that the services I mentioned are not available to everyone - my point was that some people net contribute to their provision while others don't.

Should we cordon off a county or two to dump families who can't afford private accomodation/private health care?

Pyr0 · 31-07-2013 11:03AM

Council flat myself, don't care what people think.

Aglomerado · 31-07-2013 11:03AM

philstar wrote: »

you know as someone who had a very sheltered upbringing in a bungalow in a rural area.. i sometimes envy kids who grew up in council estates they have better interaction with other kids and its character building living a fuller life...i was bored for the most part

I know what you mean! Most of my cousins grew up in council estates and were far more outgoing as children than I could ever have hoped to be.

April O Neill · 31-07-2013 11:04AM

pconn062 wrote: »

What's gathering potatoes got to do with been reared in a council house?

My thoughts too! I never knew they were linked.

Collie D · 31-07-2013 11:04AM

enda1 wrote: »

If you pay a private market rent you will never own the property no matter how many multiples of the "value" you've paid. The concept of paying a council "rent" and somehow feeling this equates to ownership if laughable.

I didn't say it equated to ownership. You brought up "net contributions" (not sure why you put rent and value in inverted commas but I'll join in) and being a leech on society. I counter that council house tenants pay their way and aren't living for free.

enda1 wrote: »

I never said that the services I mentioned are not available to everyone - my point was that some people net contribute to their provision while others don't.

Still failing to see your point

enda1 · 31-07-2013 11:06AM

shopaholic01 wrote: »

You do assume that they are all happily a financial burden on the state though.

If they are not happy why do it for 20+ years? Can they not see that there are options? Move if you can't find anything in the area. Emigrate if you can't find anything in Ireland.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

What are your feelings towards those who can't afford the mortgage on their privately owned home etc?

I think they took a large gamble and failed. Rather irresponsible.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

And no, I was not reared in a council estate, so that's not a viable counter argument for you.

Counter argument to what?

April O Neill · 31-07-2013 11:07AM

SamHall wrote: »

Lived in a council house in a council estate for 23 years with my family.

In those 23 years I never experienced a single instance of crime, be it violent or property related.

However I've been in this rather nice private estate, mortgaged to the balls with loads of Mercedes and BMW owners for 7 years now.

In that time I've had my (northern reg at the time) no plates robbed
my work vehicle ransacked, lots of equipment stolen
next door neighbour got the house broken into while she was there (nothing taken though)
Other next door neighbour house broken into and car keys taken and car robbed
Another neighbour got burgled.

23 years in the council estate and not a bother. Ever.

Possibly because burglars might think (whether right or wrong) that there's more worthwhile stuff to steal in a private estate?

enda1 · 31-07-2013 11:13AM

Collie D wrote: »

I didn't say it equated to ownership. You brought up "net contributions" (not sure why you put rent and value in inverted commas but I'll join in) and being a leech on society. I counter that council house tenants pay their way and aren't living for free.

Still failing to see your point

Council tenants do not pay their way. They contribute a notional amount, far below the costs involved in housing them.

Imagine it costs €10,000 to provided state services to the average person. Now imagine you contribute €5000 to the state. You are a net taker from society. Understand now?

shopaholic01 · 31-07-2013 11:14AM

enda1 wrote: »

If they are not happy why do it for 20+ years? Can they not see that they're are options? Move if you can't find anything in the area. Emigrate if you can't find anything in Ireland.

A lot of people don't have options, many are too old to emigrate or don't have the skills/qualifications required, regardless of where they grew up. You seem to be suggesting that people chose to be in this position, many don't have alternative options.

enda1 wrote: »

I think they took a large gamble and failed. Rather irresponsible.

A lot of mortgages are now in arrears due to pay cuts and job loss. Interest only payments,debt writedowns, personal insolvency is now an option. Many did not realise it was a gamble - do you have sympathy for these? They will not be subsidised too.

enda1 wrote: »

Counter argument to what?

You seem to get personal with those who were reared in council houses and appear to view yourself as superior.

Collie D · 31-07-2013 11:17AM

enda1 wrote: »

Council tenants do not pay their way. They contribute a notional amount, far below the costs involved in housing them.

Imagine it costs €10,000 to provided state services to the average person. Now imagine you contribute €5000 to the state. You are a net taker from society. Understand now?

Your own timeframe was 20 years...are you telling me that a council tenant pays €250 a year in rent?

enda1 · 31-07-2013 11:21AM

shopaholic01 wrote: »

A lot of people don't have options, many are too old to emigrate or don't have the skills/qualifications required, regardless of where they grew up. You seem to be suggesting that people chose to be in this position, many don't have alternative options.

We're talking here about people bringing up young families. So no, not too old.

shopaholic01 wrote: »

A lot of mortgages are now in arrears due to pay cuts and job loss. Interest only payments,debt writedowns, personal insolvency is now an option. Many did not realise it was a gamble - do you have sympathy for these? They will not be subsidised too.

Em. That means they will be subsidised. How does taking out a huge loan to purchase an investment product not equate to gambling anyway?

shopaholic01 wrote: »

You seem to get personal with those who were reared in council houses and appear to view yourself as superior.

I've no problem with those who were brought up in council properties. I have a problem with people thinking this is acceptable and am surprised at the circle-jerk that is this thread whereby everyone seems to think it's ok to take from society and not try to add something to the mix.

anncoates · 31-07-2013 11:21AM

enda1 wrote: »

The reality is that its massively subsidised and in effect a debt is being incurred monthly which society pays .

The local authority owns the house and charges a rent based on the income of the working tenant. In most cases, it's not exactly a cheap rent.

The house doesn't get passed on to anybody else: it's essentially a source of rental income to the local authority who pay for upkeep of the estates but then they do a lot of that for the whole local authority anyway.

Unemployed tenants are obviously heavily subsidized. I don't know what percentage of the current live register is in local authority housing, let alone what percentage are "lifetime-unemployed" and neither, I suspect, do you.

enda1 · 31-07-2013 11:22AM

Collie D wrote: »

Your own timeframe was 20 years...are you telling me that a council tenant pays €250 a year in rent?

What?

April O Neill · 31-07-2013 11:22AM

[-0-] wrote: »

Looking down on people in council estates is/was very Celtic Tiger D4 snobbishness.

No, snobbishness toward council estates existed long before then.

April O Neill · 31-07-2013 11:25AM

enda1 wrote: »

I'm surprised so people would not be ashamed of their parents for being a 20+ year leach on the state.

You pay rent for council houses.

Collie D · 31-07-2013 11:26AM

enda1 wrote: »

What?

You mentioned people living in council houses for 20+ years and then you give a figure of €5,000 rent paid. There's a calculator on your desktop somewhere.

Anyway I'm out of this thread...it's obvious you don't really know what you're talking about and I've better ways to spend my morning than reading PD-style economics.

enda1 · 31-07-2013 11:27AM

Collie D wrote: »

You mentioned people living in council houses for 20+ years and then you give a figure of €5,000 rent paid. There's a calculator on your desktop somewhere.

Anyway I'm out of this thread...it's obvious you don't really know what you're talking about and I've better ways to spend my morning than reading PD-style economics.

The figure 5000 was supposed to be annual and nothing to do with rent. It was a notional figure the point being to show how it's possible to pay towards something but still be a net receiver not giver.

anncoates · 31-07-2013 11:28AM

Collie D wrote: »

Anyway I'm out of this thread...it's obvious you don't really know what you're talking about and I've better ways to spend my morning than reading PD-style economics.

Maybe he grew up on a council estate and got slapped around for being called Enda.

Might explain the rants.

Frank Black · 31-07-2013 11:29AM

Brought up in a dormer bungalow myself.
Used to be a bit embarrassed when i was younger and would tell people it was a 2-storey house.

Renegade Mechanic · 31-07-2013 11:30AM

How you were reared is rather more important than where I believe anyway.

enda1 · 31-07-2013 11:31AM

anncoates wrote: »

Maybe he grew up on a council estate and got slipped around for being called Enda.

Might explain the rants.

So you've gone from spelling nazi to name calling.

Thanks for your valuable input to this thread.

April O Neill · 31-07-2013 11:31AM

enda1 wrote: »

I do however state that they are net takers from society.
All the income tax they pay, social contribution, VAT, TV license etc. does not add up to the costs the state incurs in caring for them via housing, medical care, police force etc.

Again, they pay rent.

And would only qualify for the medical card if they fell under a certain income level, like everyone else.

As for police force, what do you even mean by that?

April O Neill · 31-07-2013 11:35AM

enda1 wrote: »

If you pay a private market rent you will never own the property no matter how many multiples of the "value" you've paid.

You won't own a council house either from just paying rent.

You have to buy it.

Would you be ashamed to say you were reared in a Council house?

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