Why can nobody speak Irish?

Tony EH · 26-07-2013 01:30AM

Except making model airplanes, or stamp collecting isn't forced down people's throats at school.

Given the choice, I know which "hobby" I'd gladly have changed it for...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-07-2013 01:34AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Except making model airplanes, or stamp collecting isn't forced down people's throats at school.

Given the choice, I know which "hobby" I'd gladly have changed it for...

Your point was about application and useage. Stamp collecting probably has a lot of applications (enjoyment, art, geographical knowledge, cultural learnings, and so on) if you're into that kind of thing.

Tony EH · 26-07-2013 01:44AM

The primary function of language is not "hobby". It's communication...and Irish is a failure in that regard.

Therefore, it is a dead language.

If people want to learn as a hobby, all well and good.

ViveLaVie · 26-07-2013 01:52AM

Tony EH wrote: »

It's dead from the point of view that its communicative value is limited to an extremely small group. It's of minimal use to anybody and its practical application is virtually nil.

It doesn't matter how small the group is, a language isn't dead unless it lacks native speakers. Its application is very important and practical for those who speak it natively.

Tony EH wrote: »

Except making model airplanes, or stamp collecting isn't forced down people's throats at school.

Given the choice, I know which "hobby" I'd gladly have changed it for...

Whether its forced down people's throats or not is irrelevant to the status of the language as living or dead. That doesn't in any way support your argument that it's a dead language.

Tony EH wrote: »

The primary function of language is not "hobby". It's communication...and Irish is a failure in that regard.

Therefore, it is a dead language.

If people want to learn as a hobby, all well and good.

The language is used for communication among natives. Irish isn't a failure, it's just not as commonly used.

You repeating over and over that it's a dead language doesn't make it so. It's not. End of.

Fratoue · 26-07-2013 03:14AM

Honest real reasons?.

Beaten out of us as it is one of the oldest languages and cultures in the World, easier to control a gormless mass if they don't have an ancient culture and language stepped in a proud tradition, rebellion and ancient Fenian ways that remind us we aren't just Euro serfs working for tyrants and their bureaucrat lackeys who bypass puppets like Enda 'Freemason' Kenny and tell the Irish we need more Austerity to pay defunct banks.

That's the main reason the other is the way it is taught is a joke (no accident), we are encouraged all the time to see it as old fashioned and out dated, and finally Irish people are shockingly lazy when it comes to Irish culture yet think it's great to learn Spanish, German, French etc when Irish outdates all off them and indeed is in more need of being spoken as it really needs the numbers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-07-2013 03:36AM

Tony EH wrote: »

The primary function of language is not "hobby". It's communication...and Irish is a failure in that regard.

Therefore, it is a dead language.

If people want to learn as a hobby, all well and good.

People can communicate in Irish and speak Irish, therefore it is neither dead nor a failure. Irish enthsiasts don't learn it because they need it to communciate, they learn it because they enjoy it.

If no one spoke, then you'd have a point.

I agree with you about taking it off the mandatory secondary curriculum, most people here do. On both sides of the spectrum.

.jacksparrow. · 26-07-2013 08:03AM

Why did our ancestors not keep talking Irish?

That's what I can understand.

Herb Powell · 26-07-2013 08:46AM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Why did our ancestors not keep talking Irish?

That's what I can understand.

Have you ever heard of a little thing called "The Plantations" ?

Grayson · 26-07-2013 08:57AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Some People can communicate in Irish and speak Irish, therefore it is neither dead nor a failure. Irish enthsiasts don't learn it because they need it to communciate, they learn it because they enjoy it.

If no one spoke, then you'd have a point.

I agree with you about taking it off the mandatory secondary curriculum, most people here do. On both sides of the spectrum.

FYP

There are computer languages that were used in the 70's. They've evolved and are no longer used. Some people study them because they can be interesting in the way a dinosaur is interesting to a palaeontologist. Likewise a lot of technology has become obsolete. Some people collect it and they will even meet up to use it in company. Vintage consoles are a good example. But they are not widely used. There is even a certain amount of culture involved in them. Their enthusiasts will know the ins and outs of early nintendo for example and will talk for hours about it with each other.
But most people have moved on and are using technology which is more relevant.

That's the way it is with irish. I could learn it, but there's only two reasons to learn it and neither apply to me.
1) I'm not interested in it as a pastime/hobby
2) It's not useful or relevant to me in my life.

People who are into the irish language need to realise that it is something they are passionate about in the way I love vintage computer games. It's not something I expect others to be interested in. Unfortunately there are far too many people (I'm not saying all of them) who are irish language advocates who use it as a cultural stick to try and bludgeon others with.

Irish as a language is "alive" in the same way an Atari Jaguar is. Both might be used, but it's by hobbiests who are passionate about it. However neither could be considered mainstream or contemporary. Both are obsolete as far as our culture is concerned.

(I should get bonus points for managing to work atari jaguar into a post and making it relevant

)

Grayson · 26-07-2013 09:03AM

As a separate post, I think of of the modern cultural differences between us and the UK (particularly England) is that we are not as insular. We like the EU (for the main part) and we don't seem to hate emigrants the same way the english do. Not that all of them do, it is a generalisation, but a lot of the mainstream press in the UK is very anti foreigner.

Roger_007 · 26-07-2013 09:12AM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Why did our ancestors not keep talking Irish?

That's what I can understand.

If all or most Irish people wanted to speak Irish, they would do so. Everyone gets the chance to learn the language. The fact that most Irish people do not speak Irish in their normal everyday lives simply means the they do not want to. The mistake that enthusiasts for the language make is that they assume that most Irish people really want to converse in Irish but lack the opportunity to do so.
You cannot compel people anywhere to use any particular language. They will use whatever language is most practical. It is important to remember that the primary function of language is communication. Cultural identity is very much a secondary function.

Tony EH · 26-07-2013 09:40AM

ViveLaVie wrote: »

It doesn't matter how small the group is, a language isn't dead unless it lacks native speakers. Its application is very important and practical for those who speak it natively.

Whether its forced down people's throats or not is irrelevant to the status of the language as living or dead. That doesn't in any way support your argument that it's a dead language.

The language is used for communication among natives. Irish isn't a failure, it's just not as commonly used.

You repeating over and over that it's a dead language doesn't make it so. It's not. End of.

A tiny fraction speak it in one form or another, usually as an alternative to English among a very small group and most of that tiny fraction speak it terribly. It's value as a general communication device is largely useless, even to the majority of people with a few words as Gaelige.

It's marrabh, or whatever the stupid spelling is.

Tony EH · 26-07-2013 09:45AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

People can communicate in Irish and speak Irish, therefore it is neither dead nor a failure. Irish enthsiasts don't learn it because they need it to communciate, they learn it because they enjoy it.

If no one spoke, then you'd have a point.

I agree with you about taking it off the mandatory secondary curriculum, most people here do. On both sides of the spectrum.

A VERY SMALL amount of people can speak it and usually in a bad way.

A very small amount of people can speak Latin too.

Both are dead languages.

If people want to learn either language, that's great. But a small amount of people largely speaking badly does not constitute a vibrant, lively, viable language.

There are probably more Klingon speakers than there are Irish speakers at this stage.

:pac:

Kicking Bird · 26-07-2013 09:54AM

Tony EH wrote: »

A VERY SMALL amount of people can speak it and usually in a bad way.

A very small amount of people can speak Latin too.

Both are dead languages.

If people want to learn either language, that's great. But a small amount of people largely speaking badly does not constitute a vibrant, lively, viable language.

There are probably more Klingon speakers than there are Irish speakers at this stage.

:pac:

So you'd know if people were speaking it badly - not likely!

Tony EH · 26-07-2013 10:01AM

Most Irish speakers have pidgeon Irish, at least according to the fluent Irish speakers I've known. One of whom stated that trying to converse in Irish to most people is like speaking to small children, or a foreigner who speaks English badly. It's very rare that it's spoken eloquently.

Iwasfrozen · 26-07-2013 12:02PM

In response to the OP's question. No one speaks it because no one wants to.

Kicking Bird · 26-07-2013 12:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In response to the OP's question. No one speaks it because no one wants to.

Plenty speak it because they want to!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-07-2013 12:55PM

Tony EH wrote: »

A VERY SMALL amount of people can speak it and usually in a bad way.

A very small amount of people can speak Latin too.

Both are dead languages.

If people want to learn either language, that's great. But a small amount of people largely speaking badly does not constitute a vibrant, lively, viable language.

There are probably more Klingon speakers than there are Irish speakers at this stage.

:pac:

Beginning to think you're trolling now, if you think Latin and Irish are on the same level with regard to number of speakers, regardless of why they choose to speak it, and if you need to bring up Klingon.

Iwasfrozen · 26-07-2013 12:56PM

Kicking Bird wrote: »

Plenty speak it because they want to!

And long may they continue but they are a minority.

Iwasfrozen · 26-07-2013 01:02PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

, regardless of why they choose to speak it, and if you need to bring up Klingon.

Hey Klingon is a fully flushed out language. I think the fact more people have heard Dothraki then Irish really sums up the status of the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-07-2013 01:07PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hey Klingon is a fully flushed out language. I think the fact more people have heard Dothraki then Irish really sums up the status of the language.

And now we're definitely in torll country: am I supposed to get all outraged because of the attempted offense or am I supposed to point out the obvious fallacy that more people attend or have attended Irish schools than have seen an episode of the first season of Game of Thrones....?

Kicking Bird · 26-07-2013 01:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

In response to the OP's question. No one speaks it because no one wants to.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And long may they continue but they are a minority.

Both comments completely contradict one another!

Iwasfrozen · 26-07-2013 02:07PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And now we're definitely in torll country: am I supposed to get all outraged because of the attempted offense or am I supposed to point out the obvious fallacy that more people attend or have attended Irish schools than have seen an episode of the first season of Game of Thrones....?

Are you sure about that? We're only counting living people here and 13.5 million people on average watched each episode. Also that's not including the illegal downloads.

Source: http://m.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Season-3-Finale-Earns-5-4-Million-Total-Viewers-56563.html

Iwasfrozen · 26-07-2013 02:11PM

Kicking Bird wrote: »

Both comments completely contradict one another!

Try not think in extremes.

Kicking Bird · 26-07-2013 02:14PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you sure about that? We're only counting living people here and 13.5 million people on average watched each episode. Also that's not including the illegal downloads.

Source: http://m.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Season-3-Finale-Earns-5-4-Million-Total-Viewers-56563.html[/QUOTE]

You do live in a fantasy world!

Tony EH · 26-07-2013 02:20PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Beginning to think you're trolling now, if you think Latin and Irish are on the same level with regard to number of speakers, regardless of why they choose to speak it, and if you need to bring up Klingon.

It's called a joke, hence the :pac:

Which brings up another point about Irish speakers...their general lack of a sense of humour when the p1ss is taken out of their hobby.

nibble · 26-07-2013 02:26PM

It's quite obvious as I see it, the simple answer is that Irish is simply a less functional/practical language to be learning - the primary reason for it's teaching is cultural preservation. I'd see it a lot like learning Latin really. Irish fluency isn't really going to improve someones communication skills at all, literally everybody that speaks it now also speaks completely fluent English.

If you're a European learning English or another modern European language it has practical application, it's going to improve your communication skills with large groups of people and hence broaden your prospects and general horizons.

I'm sure something along these lines has been said forty times already.

Not that I think there's anything wrong with the preservation of culture by the way, that's just how the attitude comes about I think. I was a lot more proficient in Spanish after six years than I was in Irish after fourteen.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-07-2013 02:42PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you sure about that? We're only counting living people here and 13.5 million people on average watched each episode. Also that's not including the illegal downloads.

Source: http://m.cinemablend.com/television/Game-Thrones-Season-3-Finale-Earns-5-4-Million-Total-Viewers-56563.html

Oh, I see. And that makes a fictious langauge alive, does it? I'd argue, if we're going to a global scale, that I could include anyone who's ever stepped foot on Irish soil and desendents of irish people abroad who have probably been exposed to the language at some point.

Tony EH wrote: »

It's called a joke, hence the :pac:

Which brings up another point about Irish speakers...their general lack of a sense of humour when the p1ss is taken out of their hobby.

Dunno.... you'd have to ask one.

Iwasfrozen · 26-07-2013 05:02PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Oh, I see. And that makes a fictious langauge alive, does it? I'd argue, if we're going to a global scale, that I could include anyone who's ever stepped foot on Irish soil and desendents of irish people abroad who have probably been exposed to the language at some point.

Technically the language isn't fictional but yes obviously it isn't alive. I just think it puts things into perspective when you consider more living people have been exposed to a fictional made up language then Irish. Worthless language to learn. Both of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 26-07-2013 05:30PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Technically the language isn't fictional but yes obviously it isn't alive. I just think it puts things into perspective when you consider more living people have been exposed to a fictional made up language then Irish. Worthless language to learn. Both of them.

How exactly how does that work?

As to it being "worthless", that boils down to the individual.

It's a bit arrogant (not to mention hypocrtical) to denouce people using the word "our" language and "our" heritange and assuming it automatically has value to everyone; and then to denouce it as being "worthless" for you and assuming it's therefore worhtless to everyone, full stop.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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