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Why can nobody speak Irish?
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He he he.......That post shows you have realised that what you said about Irish being a dead language was wrong but are unable to admit it and so you're hiding your shame with an attack (and not a good one).
R-1 SM-0
It wasn't your lack of knowledge on how languages develop that annoyed me but your eagerness to slate Irish when nearly all European languages are linked and have many similar words, I bet you don't think every word that sounds similar to an English one in the German or French languages is a sign of those languages weaknesses. Think about it.
So when you posted that you had no idea what the process I was describing was, you were being self-effacing? Interesting bit of revisionism, which I'm afraid doesn't stand up to scrutiny, but if you've learned something in this thread that's a good thing. Your definition of "winning" is on a par with Charlie sheen's.
To further your education, the reason that languages pollinate in this fashion comes down to a few basic causes: origination, utility, dominance, and intermingling.
Origination, obviously, is when the emergence of a word or phrase accompanies a new invention, discovery, or concept. The language of the originator naturally accompanies it as it spreads around. Since nothing of novelty has originated in the Irish speaking enclaves for centuries, this results in most new words entering the language to follow the process described above (say the English word like a Hollywood cliche Irishman and write down the result). This is also a good reason to describe the language as dead; like Latin or ancient Greek, no origination of language happens anymore.
Utility comes into effect when an existing language has a deficiency of structure or usage which makes the adoption of foreign language elements preferable. One of the reasons that English is so widely adopted is due to flexibility: its rules are fluid and allow for incredible variations in expression. This makes it a very difficult language to become fluent in, but an easy language to make yourself understood in. Irish, by contrast, has a limited vocabulary, and a structure melded together by a political committee from several dialects (if you haven't googled the Gaelic league yet I'm not doing it for you). Again, not an indication of a thriving, living language.
Domination explains the similarities between so many European languages (the domination of Greek, then Latin and more recently French), Asian languages (thousands of years of Chinese rule), and the more recent spread of the English language over the whole world. Dominant cultures spread their language either by force of occupied colonisation (not much of a factor in the last 100 years or so) or by economic dominance (anyone who wants your money knows they'll get it more easily speaking your language or adopting your culture). As Irish is clearly not dominant here, and isn't going to become dominant in a globalised economy, again you're on a hiding to nothing. Dead man walking.
Intermingling is the one which strikes fear into the heart of the Bibliotheque Nationale, because when you allow cultures and people to mix, you give up control of how they develop their identity and language. If your language and culture is not attractive to people, lacks strength or vigour, it may lose. This is why the Irish fanatics are so vocal and insistent about forcing the language onto people in schools, in laws, in government, and in massive money draining "promotional" schemes. It's why the self evident nonsense about "our" language and "our" culture being based on this dead, niche language is thrown about with such conviction. They know, given free choice, that the language is probably doomed, just like it was before.
Paradoxically, French was the language of the English gentry and government for centuries, and Anglo Saxon was considered a language for peasants. Only after the schisms of the Anglo French wars did the aristocracy renounce French and express their englishness by taking on the native language. This is the approach and end result the Irish fanatics have been pursuing for almost 200 years without meaningful success. Given control over the government, the schools, the churches, and the airwaves for over 80 years, there's still no dent in the what the true "first language" of the country is.
Of course, with more money, more laws, more forcing it on people, this year it'll be different!
It won't. The language is a zombie. Leave us alone, stop stealing our money (and our European counterpart's) to prop it up, take it out of the mandatory curriculum and go off to speak it wherever you like. Nobody will stop you. In fact, most people won't even notice much.0 -
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Buddy, I've been studying languages for 30 years now, and speak a few.Slutmonkey57b wrote: »So when you posted that you had no idea what the process I was describing was, you were being self-effacing? Interesting bit of revisionism, which I'm afraid doesn't stand up to scrutiny, but if you've learned something in this thread that's a good thing. Your definition of "winning" is on a par with Charlie sheen's.
To further your education, the reason that languages pollinate in this fashion comes down to a few basic causes: origination, utility, dominance, and intermingling.
Ugggggg..........Origination, obviously, is when the emergence of a word or phrase accompanies a new invention, discovery, or concept. The language of the originator naturally accompanies it as it spreads around. Since nothing of novelty has originated in the Irish speaking enclaves for centuries, this results in most new words entering the language to follow the process described above (say the English word like a Hollywood cliche Irishman and write down the result). This is also a good reason to describe the language as dead; like Latin or ancient Greek, no origination of language happens anymore.
Utility comes into effect when an existing language has a deficiency of structure or usage which makes the adoption of foreign language elements preferable. One of the reasons that English is so widely adopted is due to flexibility: its rules are fluid and allow for incredible variations in expression. This makes it a very difficult language to become fluent in, but an easy language to make yourself understood in. Irish, by contrast, has a limited vocabulary, and a structure melded together by a political committee from several dialects (if you haven't googled the Gaelic league yet I'm not doing it for you). Again, not an indication of a thriving, living language.
Domination explains the similarities between so many European languages (the domination of Greek, then Latin and more recently French), Asian languages (thousands of years of Chinese rule), and the more recent spread of the English language over the whole world. Dominant cultures spread their language either by force of occupied colonisation (not much of a factor in the last 100 years or so) or by economic dominance (anyone who wants your money knows they'll get it more easily speaking your language or adopting your culture). As Irish is clearly not dominant here, and isn't going to become dominant in a globalised economy, again you're on a hiding to nothing. Dead man walking.
Intermingling is the one which strikes fear into the heart of the Bibliotheque Nationale, because when you allow cultures and people to mix, you give up control of how they develop their identity and language. If your language and culture is not attractive to people, lacks strength or vigour, it may lose. This is why the Irish fanatics are so vocal and insistent about forcing the language onto people in schools, in laws, in government, and in massive money draining "promotional" schemes. It's why the self evident nonsense about "our" language and "our" culture being based on this dead, niche language is thrown about with such conviction. They know, given free choice, that the language is probably doomed, just like it was before.
Paradoxically, French was the language of the English gentry and government for centuries, and Anglo Saxon was considered a language for peasants. Only after the schisms of the Anglo French wars did the aristocracy renounce French and express their englishness by taking on the native language. This is the approach and end result the Irish fanatics have been pursuing for almost 200 years without meaningful success. Given control over the government, the schools, the churches, and the airwaves for over 80 years, there's still no dent in the what the true "first language" of the country is.
Of course, with more money, more laws, more forcing it on people, this year it'll be different!
It won't. The language is a zombie. Leave us alone, stop stealing our money (and our European counterpart's) to prop it up, take it out of the mandatory curriculum and go off to speak it wherever you like. Nobody will stop you. In fact, most people won't even notice much.
Beaucoup condamner c'est peu comprendre.0 -
Buddy, I've been studying languages for 30 years now, and speak a few.
And yet.... still weren't aware of the process...Ugggggg..........
Beaucoup condamner c'est peu comprendre.
You've made one claim you speak several languages, then you're posting in one of them.
And yet, not a single rebuttal. Is your only response to attempt to insinuate you're clever? Frankly, it's not working. I don't believe you've got a useful response to any of this.0 -
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Slutmonkey57b wrote: »Cost. Time. Effort.
This language robs the exchequer of billions which could be spent elsewhere. It robs people of years in school pretending to learn a mandatory subject they don't want. It requires massive effort to meet all the translation laws by an army of civil servants which could be used for other jobs (or got rid of). For much the same reason, the public don't much like banks.
So as eloquently posted by someone above: When the language fanatics stop taking our money, time, and effort away from us to support something we haven't asked for and don't want, you'll probably find less hostility towards it.
If the language is alive and well, it doesn't need the money and legal enforcement. The only reason it does, is because it's dead. However you won't find an adherent of the language admitting to that contradiction. The implications are too frightening.
if you could stop using the "we" and insert an "i" instead, people might have more time for your hatred of the language.
You know you are discriminating against the right of native Irish people to speak their own language. To date I haven't seen any "fanatics" that you speak about although I'd say you are a bit of a fanatic in your efforts to try and say its a dead language - (at least you did earlier on in your posts, until you realized you were wrong). 0 -
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The reason that most people don't speak Irish,(even if they know enough to converse in it), is because everyday language is largely slang. They don't teach the Irish slang in school, so there it's not 'cool' to use the language for ordinary conversation. Slang is the lifeblood of a language; without it, the language is dead. That does not mean that that there is no use learning it; it is just that it will only ever be used in a formal and academic way, e,g, like Latin.
you obviously don't speak it on a day to day basis. 0 -
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You are obviously wrong. All my education was through Irish and I did the Leaving entirely in Irish,(except English of course). However I never learned any Irish slang, therefore I never used the language for everyday conversation. I thing you are deliberately missing my point.fishy fishy wrote: »you obviously don't speak it.0 -
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Indeed, it's a bit like saying: 'Because I speak it, everyone else should'
but I'm not saying everyone should speak it - I am merely saying that plenty of people speak it (slang and all) on a day to day basis and in fact there are places where it is the only language that is spoken - that is a fact of life. So therefore what I am saying is that it is not a dead language as people are trying to say - it is alive and thriving.
It doesn't matter to me if individuals hate the language - their prerogative - but to say it is a dead language just because you are unable to speak it, is just plain naive and silly.
Im quite happy being able to speak the language - I couldn't' give a rat's a** if others can't speak it, just don't try to make out its dead because of the inability to grasp it.
(this post is not personal to you by the way - just remarking on your comment (which if you check, I never said).
:o 0 -
fishy fishy wrote: »but I'm not saying everyone should speak it - I am merely saying that plenty of people speak it (slang and all) on a day to day basis and in fact there are places where it is the only language that is spoken - that is a fact of life. So therefore what I am saying is that it is not a dead language as people are trying to say - it is alive and thriving.
It doesn't matter to me if individuals hate the language - their prerogative - but to say it is a dead language just because you are unable to speak it, is just plain naive and silly.
Im quite happy being able to speak the language - I couldn't' give a rat's a** if others can't speak it, just don't try to make out its dead because of the inability to grasp it.
(this post is not personal to you by the way - just remarking on your comment (which if you check, I never said).:o
If we take the sentence in 'bold' as a starting point, then this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship!0 -
fishy fishy wrote: »if you could stop using the "we" and insert an "i" instead, people might have more time for your hatred of the language.
You know you are discriminating against the right of native Irish people to speak their own language. To date I haven't seen any "fanatics" that you speak about although I'd say you are a bit of a fanatic in your efforts to try and say its a dead language - (at least you did earlier on in your posts, until you realized you were wrong).
I'm proposing that people who want to speak the language stop forcing it on those who don't. Remove the government subsidies, make it optional, and let people get on with it. In no universe is that discrimination.
If Catholics decided tomorrow that everyone in Ireland had to go to mass because "it's part of our culture" or "because it's popular", and someone refused, is that refusal discrimination?
Your argument is nonsensical.0 -
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