Road rage against cyclists is it just me?

TonyStark · 22-07-2013 04:36PM

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

No its more of the lines of how do we cycle so our heads dont end up under a car wheel and also following the rules of the road !

When it comes to cycling on the public highway my personal safety always takes precedence to a lazily composed, ill thought out pamphlet that the majority of road users (drivers) seem to ignore for the most part but yet are fit to quote back to cyclists when it suits. If it's safe to keep left I will but I am not going to abjectly put myself/others in danger working to the letter of the ROTR. I like to think i use a bit of cop on and common sense.

As far as the rules of the road are concerned are drivers not supposed to drive at a safe speed be able to control their vehicle & keep their distance from traffic in front of them? Basically just to have a general all around ability to control their vehicles.

Doesn't the "problem with cyclists" emanate from little men not being able to control big things? or is it simply just based on a jealous disposition of intolerance to seeing people out about enjoying themselves.

I drive as well don't get me wrong, but how many times have I been cut off by traffic joining a main road rushing out in front of me only to find them crawl along.

I see it as well on the N4/N5 guys willing to speed up your hole in the 80 kmph zone at 100 kmph plus.. only to find them hogging and being a nuisance in the overtaking lane crawling along when the road speeds up to a 120kmph min. I've lost count on the number of times I've flashed these types to pull in and give up. Amazing that in the lower zone you are not quite fast enough for them but when it comes to the faster zone they are no great shakes. I imagine the same types that believe cyclists hold them up as well and honk and holler at them.

Being "held up" is relative.

Luis21 · 22-07-2013 04:42PM

Other cyclists are the cause my road rage. Women in particular.

If you want to be annoyed, just cycle into Dublin along the canal during rush hour, you'll blow a fuse.

Ole Rodrigo · 22-07-2013 05:08PM

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

It is safer to cycle out from the kerb, around the point where the painted line would be if there were a cycle lane there. It allows flexibility when dodging obstacles, prevents silly overtakes on single lane roads and allows drivers see you sooner. Yes it can be be mildly inconvenient for following traffic, but safety should always trump convenience.

As for the ROTR...The ROTR is a nice book, but it's no roadcraft bible. Roadcraft is worth learning, but it involves thinking about what is going on around you to a much greater level than that booklet could ever cover. And taking "keep left" too literally is a bad idea. Try it some day. Keep in as far left as possible. You'll find it quite scary.

With respect, this simply not true - or at least not the full truth. You can hug the left without it being dangerous in order to facilitate the flow of traffic, and this is entirely within the spirit of thinking about your roadcraft. In fact its an essential part of it IMO. Its not scary, and not that its especially important, but a wave in the rearview mirror from a grateful motorist who has seen what you have done to accommodate them adds much more to your ride than some knucklderagger who shouts **** for staying 3ft out, for no other reason than you're entitled to. Of course there are situations when keeping three feet out is the prudent thing to do and you would expect a competent driver to see exactly why you are out there in that instance.

Also, using safety as an argument hardly stands up when the statistics say despite the friction/ antagonism/ poor cycling practices, cycling remains a very safe activity. So ride the line on the left every now and then for the sake of harmony - isn't that what this is really about ? I'll bet the statistics will continue to speak for themselves. If my rides involved so much stress from motorists it wouldn't be worth the bother. Besides, taking that tight left
is fun. Hands down it beats a line of cars up my a**e all biting their lips just to appease my road neurosis. Thats really the same mentality as sailing through a red light junction believing your Hi-Viz jacket will save you from everything. Granted, my point about statistics also implies that is a safe activity too.

22-07-2013 05:11PM

Its like running of the bulls dont blame the bulls if you get knocked down.

Chips Lovell · 22-07-2013 05:13PM

What?

hardCopy · 22-07-2013 05:18PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

What?

Don't bite!

Moflojo · 22-07-2013 05:26PM

Last Thursday evening, after all the media kerfuffle about the €50 fines for cyclists, my housemate and I got into a heated debate about cycling, cyclists, legislation, rules of the road and etiquette.

After much talking in circles we eventually came to the agreement that there is no need to legislate for cyclists, motorists, van drivers, psycho Dublin Bus Drivers, or any other road users.

We just need to legislate for assholes, man.

Kav0777 · 22-07-2013 05:35PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

What?

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTj2rMxL1tVr-3IDi70w9MxoYgktNgVcSIhjrDj9poT7T33jo-Usg

But on my way, I'm going to be doing this...[windmills his arms] If you get hit, it's your own fault.

Dermot Illogical · 22-07-2013 05:43PM

ror_74 wrote: »

With respect, this simply not true - or at least not the full truth. You can hug the left without it being dangerous in order to facilitate the flow of traffic, and this is entirely within the spirit of thinking about your roadcraft. In fact its an essential part of it IMO. Its not scary, and not that its especially important, but a wave in the rearview mirror from a grateful motorist who has seen what you have done to accommodate them adds much more to your ride than some knucklderagger who shouts **** for staying 3ft out, for no other reason than you're entitled to. Of course there are situations when keeping three feet out is the prudent thing to do and you would expect a competent driver to see exactly why you are out there in that instance.

Also, using safety as an argument hardly stands up when the statistics say despite the friction/ antagonism/ poor cycling practices, cycling remains a very safe activity. So ride the line on the left every now and then for the sake of harmony - isn't that what this is really about ? I'll bet the statistics will continue to speak for themselves. If my rides involved so much stress from motorists it wouldn't be worth the bother. Besides, taking that tight left
is fun. Hands down it beats a line of cars up my a**e all biting their lips just to appease my road neurosis. Thats really the same mentality as sailing through a red light junction believing your Hi-Viz jacket will save you from everything. Granted, my point about statistics also implies that is a safe activity too.

You can at times hug the left safely of course, but when you find that the car you pulled in to let pass is followed by a line of cars (each inching closer while following like lemmings) you can find yourself with no room to avoid that pothole looming large ahead of you, and no opportunity to retake your original position. Give an inch etc.

Of course, the only reason you are required to move in and allow traffic to pass is that the other side of the road is occupied. So now you've got yourself squeezed up against the side of the road while they all try to give you as much space as they think you need (a movable feast there) whilst being more worried about a head on collision with something that may actually hurt them. There is only one possible loser in this scenario, but if the loser was foolish enough to invite the situation onto themselves I suppose who are we to argue?

As a retort to your final comments, I'd like to stress that I am a million miles from anything like neurosis or stress on the roads. I take a safe and assertive position on the roads and travel at a speed which minimises any possible delay I might cause anyone following. I don't generally get the grief people are complaining about here. I can only remember 2 muppets complaining in the last 3 years and 25k kilometers. One was a learner who tried overtaking about 20m short of a queue of traffic, while the other was a dizzy bint who started shouting at me to use the cycle lane. What she thought was a cycle lane was a line of parking places.

AltAccount · 22-07-2013 06:33PM

Ludikrus wrote: »

Quick poll. Would cyclists be prepared to pay a road tax if it were introduced for cyclists?

A Self-Propelled Vehicle tax? I'd have no problem as long as it's fair and proportionate.

Does a 14 year old on a bike pay a different rate than the same kid on a skateboard? How young does it go - does a 3 year old with stabilisers pay?

What if you own multiple bikes?
What if you have 5 bikes but never cycle them, they're just sitting in the shed?
Do you pay more on a touring bike than on a Dutch bike, on the presumption that you'll do more miles on it?

Don't let yourself off the hook so easily - you can't ask such a glib question, expect a yes/no answer and think the results of your poll have any meaning whatsoever...

Elaborate please!

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 22-07-2013 06:41PM

you all have to think aswell that not everyone think like you guys or not a lot of people think like myself,

so the majority of idiots on the roads expect you to be on the very left, and so do the gardai because its written into the rules of the road,

now if you say motorists will get your respect when they follow the rules why should they give you theirs when you wont follow the simple rule of keep left ?

i know i wont give a crap about the person on the bike if their going to be a muppet about it and wont keep left as per rules.

im not leaving this as a "you have to follow the rules but we dont"

AltAccount · 22-07-2013 06:53PM

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

you all have to think aswell that not everyone think like you guys or not a lot of people think like myself,

so the majority of idiots on the roads expect you to be on the very left, and so do the gardai because its written into the rules of the road,

now if you say motorists will get your respect when they follow the rules why should they give you theirs when you wont follow the simple rule of keep left ?

i know i wont give a crap about the person on the bike if their going to be a muppet about it and wont keep left as per rules.

im not leaving this as a "you have to follow the rules but we dont"

Do the rules say "keep left", or do they say "keep to the very left"? I think there's a significant difference.

What is the implication to the cyclist if you "don't give a crap about them"?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 22-07-2013 07:16PM

AltAccount wrote: »

Do the rules say "keep left", or do they say "keep to the very left"? I think there's a significant difference.

What is the implication to the cyclist if you "don't give a crap about them"?

But its not stay in the middle of the lane.

If cyclists dont show respect to me or the rules of the road then I will not respect them

Chips Lovell · 22-07-2013 07:19PM

Even if you think someone isn't following road traffic law, it doesn't give you carte blanche to drive dangerously near them.

Beasty · 22-07-2013 07:20PM

The RoTR actually say:

Keep clear of the kerb – riding clear will make you more visible and help
reduce unsafe overtaking

bambergbike · 22-07-2013 07:34PM

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

i know i wont give a crap about the person on the bike if their going to be a muppet about it and wont keep left as per rules.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

If cyclists dont show respect to me or the rules of the road then I will not respect them

How exactly will it show, this business of you not giving a crap about people on bikes? Yelling? Beeping? Fists? Assaults or deliberate close passes with a few tonnes of metal? Or will you save up all your anger for an evening rant here?

Don't forget that it's very dangerous to operate a vehicle in an angry state. Your judgement can be impaired. If you find yourself becoming angry with other road users, you should probably get out of the car, go for a half-hour walk and take a few deep breaths before you resume your journey. If you find that you have to interrupt every car journey for three or four walks, you could sell the car and cycle instead. That would allow you to dissipate your anger and make some forward progress at the same time.

AltAccount · 22-07-2013 07:44PM

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

But its not stay in the middle of the lane.

If cyclists dont show respect to me or the rules of the road then I will not respect them

Help me understand the rules of the road that you respect.

Does it mean keep to the left of the centre line, keep to the left of the lane you're in, or keep as far left as you can?

dvntie · 22-07-2013 08:01PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

only if your car is 2008 or later. older cars still pay based on engine size.

the government are repeatedly missing an open goal in not moving to model where road tax is completely loaded onto petrol.

Actually that's incorrect we pay double tax on motoring here "road tax" and also the "carbon tax" on petrol
I'm surprised the IMF aren't telling the Greeks and Spanish to do the same

Wishbone Ash · 22-07-2013 08:05PM

I was descending from Howth summit this morning and a line of motorists inconvenienced me by refusing to pull in to allow me to pass them. One even moved out closer to the white line! I was forced to wait several seconds until there was no oncoming traffic to enable me to complete my overtaking manoeuvre. Disgraceful!

Swanner wrote: »

People in all walks of life will feel a greater sense of entitlement when they pay for something, especially when they have to share it and are at times inconvenienced by people who don't. You might as well just suck it up and accept that because it won't change any time soon

Many of us pay full motor tax for a vehicle which sits in the driveway 6 days a week while we reduce congestion and pollution for others by cycling. Bearing in mind that my last car was a hefty €1200 or so to tax, shouldn't we have an even greater sense of entitlement, after all we are subsidising the lazy and inactive.

quainy · 22-07-2013 08:15PM

I understand where everyone is coming from and the two abreast thing.

I'm a cyclist myself but some people don't realise that the road is too thin for two abreast cycling.
Most of us know when there is a lot of two way traffic to try to stay in but I drove by a group of cyclists cycling towards portarlington a while ago and they really did need to just pull in, there was FOUR cars stuck behind them.

Roger Hassenforder · 22-07-2013 08:22PM

quainy wrote: »

I understand where everyone is coming from and the two abreast thing.

I'm a cyclist myself but some people don't realise that the road is too thin for two abreast cycling.
Most of us know when there is a lot of two way traffic to try to stay in but I drove by a group of cyclists cycling towards portarlington a while ago and they really did need to just pull in, there was FOUR cars stuck behind them.

OMG FOUR cars heading towards Portarlington?
Mass must have been on..:D

bambergbike · 22-07-2013 08:26PM

quainy wrote: »

I drove by a group of cyclists cycling towards portarlington a while ago and they really did need to just pull in, there was FOUR cars stuck behind them.

Details, please. I'm not sure that I really get what your point is.

1. Stuck for how long? Doing what speed behind the cyclists? How many cyclists?
2. Stuck for how much longer you think would have been acceptable? How long might that have been?
3. How did the situation end?
4. What was your vantage point? Were you in one of the four cars (which one?).

Dermot Illogical · 22-07-2013 08:34PM

I've had that many cars behind me on occasion. They're usually delayed more by the car directly behind me than by my position. That's because car #1 is almost never in correct gear and at correct revs to take the overtaking opportunities that do arise.

steamengine · 22-07-2013 08:37PM

Just a few points from the 2007 edition of the ROTR as issued by the RSA.

Under Cycling Safely - Page 158.

Make sure you keep to the left. Always look behind and give the proper signal before moving off, changing lane or making a turn.

I think most people would interpret this as keeping to the left of the lane you are in, whilst leaving adequate distance from the kerb.

As regards cycling two abreast - From the Do and Don't section - Page 161

Do cycle in single file if cycling beside another person would endanger, inconvenience or block other traffic or pedestrians.

Do cycle in single file in heavy traffic.

This seems pretty clear in that blocks of two abreast cyclists are in general not really entitled to hold up cars who wish to overtake them. They should move into single file.

bambergbike · 22-07-2013 09:33PM

steamengine wrote: »

This seems pretty clear in that blocks of two abreast cyclists are in general not really entitled to hold up cars who wish to overtake them. They should move into single file.

A lot of people have already addressed this quite logically and rephrased the same or similar points several times. Cyclists making themselves visible through their road positioning and claiming some space on the road to deter dangerous overtakes are not doing it because they enjoy baiting motorists and listening to noisy smelly engines revving. They are doing it because dangerous overtaking is

A) frighteningly common in Ireland

and

terrifying, especially to vulnerable road users

and

C) dangerous, potentially fatally so.

magicbastarder wrote: »

if you cannot safely pass a cyclist who is 3 foot from the kerb, you cannot safely pass him when he is 1 foot from the kerb, unless you are on a single lane road.
if the cyclist is preventing you from overtaking in this manner, you shouldn't be overtaking at all.

mr spuckler wrote: »

the point of cycling out from the verge is that it discourages motorists from passing when not safe to do so. squeezing in to the left so that a car can pass you while another car is oncoming will likely result in the cyclist being clipped by a wing mirror.

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

The safe opportunity is created by an absence of oncoming traffic, not by the actions of the cyclist.
Do the world a favour and go learn how to drive competently.

-PornStar- wrote: »

You should not be overtaking when there is oncoming traffic. This is one of the reasons cyclists stay away from the curb. To stop dangerous overtaking.

Beasty wrote: »

"2 abreast" - it maybe adds a metre or so to the distance a vehicle has to move over to overtake. Given you can reasonably expect cyclists to be half a metre or so from the kerb (and more in some circumstances as already outined in this thread), and there is a minimum recommended passing distance of 1.5m, in virtually all cases motorists would expect top move into either an overtaking lane or oncoming lane when overtaking - what does it matter whether they they have to move that extra metre over (particularly as it allows them to get clear of the cyclists quicker)?

Some drivers think they should be able to get past cyclists more or less as if the cyclists were not there at all. In that context, it's only logical if cyclists proceed on the assumption that motor traffic will only be allowed pass after some sort of demonstration of good faith.

CramCycle · 22-07-2013 09:55PM

robertxxx wrote: »

:P:P:P:P:P:P

My thoughts exactly, sure maybe the civil service and the AGS won't charge or do it after hours free of charge to ensure the system will be operational. Taxes are only charged if they are enforceable or there is a general belief people will pay and most importantly, if it makes more mney than it costs to administer.

Moflojo wrote: »

We just need to legislate for assholes, man.

Damn straight, while driving, if only one cyclists seems like an asshole, then they are an asshole, if they all seem like assholes then bad news, you are the asshole. While cycling, if only one person operating a motor vehicle seems like an asshole, then they are an asshole, if they all seem like assholes then bad news, you are the asshole. My view for what they need to legislate to allow: For Gardai to have the power to start asking people they pull over, in general, what is your opinion of a subgroup of road users (not the one they are in) that have nothing in common that you know of bar their mode of transport. Then, answer dependent, either say thank you or take the vehicle of their hands, sell for scrap or auction for charity, as appropriate.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

so the majority of idiots on the roads expect you to be on the very left, and so do the gardai because its written into the rules of the road

The AGS, the legal system and anyone with common sense, do not take a non legal pamphlet written by a poorly educated (IMO, there are no genuises in there) as the law. They use the law and common sense, and in general (although not always) a good mix of both.

im not leaving this as a "you have to follow the rules but we dont"

I follow the rules of the road but seem to be the type of cyclist you dislike/have no respect for, it is all very confusing

quainy wrote: »

I'm a cyclist myself but some people don't realise that the road is too thin for two abreast cycling.

If they are too thin for two abreast cycling, I hate to say it but they are too thin to be operating a motor vehicle (bar a motorcycle) on.

steamengine wrote: »

This seems pretty clear in that blocks of two abreast cyclists are in general not really entitled to hold up cars who wish to overtake them. They should move into single file.

They are if it is the safe and legal thing to do, the same way you are entitled to wait behind them until it is safe to overtake in an appropriate manner.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 22-07-2013 10:15PM

Beasty wrote: »

The RoTR actually say:

WOOHOO!!!

I try to stay close to the kerb as best as I can as courtesy to other road users. I notice some degenerates taking advantage of this and i'm not happy about it.

I stay close to the kerb as I feel it's safer. I'm afraid that a bus or taxi or one of the many other vehicles that use the bus lane will just plow right into me. If a bus hits me, i'm going to be in a seriously bad way.

Oh, I encounter a lot of road users who break the rules, bikes, motorbikes, buses, trucks, cars, jeeps, pedestrians, women, men, Caucasians, Asians, Africans, young, old, new cars, old cars.

Cyclists/motorists going through red lights (pedestrian crossings), motorists overtaking cyclists and turning left immediately, buses driving at speed and too close to cyclists (and cars), cyclists cycling on the wrong side of the road, pedestrians walking/running across the road, joggers using the road/cycle paths instead of the footpath, cyclists overtaking cars dangerously, some cyclists don't even have control of their bikes when cycling, swerving all over the place. motorists blocking cycle lanes, etc etc.

Every day there's something on the road I witness. Everybody is at fault.

Beasty · 22-07-2013 10:15PM

CramCycle wrote: »

The AGS, the legal system and anyone with common sense, do not take a non legal pamphlet written by a poorly educated (IMO, there are no genuises in there) as the law. They use the law and common sense, and in general (although not always) a good mix of both.

To be clear, the RoTR do not mention "the very left" - that statement is a pure figment of Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime's imagination, and is perhaps an indication the aforementioned poster has not even bothered checking what the RoTR say, despite their forceful statements on the matter

They actually suggest cyclists should "keep to the left" but then also clearly stated, as I have already mentioned, that they should "keep clear of the kerb".

They also state for motorists "Never put a cyclist or motorcyclist at risk and know your duty to be aware of them.", indicating again that Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime does not seem to want to obey the rules he thinks he is preaching

Oh, and

Never cut in front of cyclists or motorcyclists when overtaking them. Give them plenty of space, especially:

in wet or windy weather,
when road conditions are icy,
when they are starting off. Cyclists tend to wobble until they build up their speed, and
when the road surface is poor. Cyclists and motorcyclists may need to avoid potholes.

The Bishop Basher · 22-07-2013 10:21PM

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Many of us pay full motor tax for a vehicle which sits in the driveway 6 days a week while we reduce congestion and pollution for others by cycling. Bearing in mind that my last car was a hefty €1200 or so to tax, shouldn't we have an even greater sense of entitlement, after all we are subsidising the lazy and inactive.

No. You bought a car that you weren't planning on using 6 days a week because you enjoy cycling. That's your choice. And why is it that it seems to be common place among cyclists to consider anyone in a car, lazy, fat, inactive, heading for a heart attack blah blah blah. Many of you own cars as well so do you suddenly become all these things when you sit into the car ?

I asked cycle path to back up his assertion earlier in this thread that "most motoring in cities is just an expression of selfishness and laziness" but I notice he has not responded. For my part, I drive out of necessity and make no apologies for doing so.

CramCycle · 22-07-2013 10:26PM

Hands up, I actually haven't read them in a long time

Road rage against cyclists is it just me?

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