Why can nobody speak Irish?

Slutmonkey57b · 20-07-2013 12:26AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's both.

Teaching of English is a lot better because moer emphasis is on grammar and written content and the teachers are native speakers to start with. It's also a muc easier subject to learn and teach when it's the common tongue.

Your post would suggest otherwise.

20-07-2013 12:48AM

Same old question, same old answer.

Ireland has experienced a language shift from Irish to English and few are willing to retain the existing language, thus rendering it effectively obsolete, as it appears to be obsolete it is deemed to be useless!

Sad but, unfortunately true.

For a language to be used it needs a reason to be used to communicate something, if all government welfare benefit claim forms were in Irish only, you can be sure that the uptake of Irish would be higher.

The same could be said for claiming tax-back.

LordSutch · 20-07-2013 12:53AM

1/ Irish is taught as a subject (not a language).
2/ Too many bleedin old poems with no relevence to today.
3/ What's the point? nobody else speaks it when you get home.
4/ Its compulsory, from Primary, through Junior Cert > to Leaving*

*Obviously several subjects are compulsory, but somehow Irish seemed to be an oppressive and a needless necessity, and
you just knew from family & friends that you would probably never speak it in everyday Irish life, hence "What's the point"?

Speaking from my own experience.

Dammo · 20-07-2013 01:23AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Same old question, same old answer.

Ireland has experienced a language shift from Irish to English and few are willing to retain the existing language, thus rendering it effectively obsolete, as it appears to be obsolete it is deemed to be useless!

Sad but, unfortunately true.

For a language to be used it needs a reason to be used to communicate something, if all government welfare benefit claim forms were in Irish only, you can be sure that the uptake of Irish would be higher.

The same could be said for claiming tax-back.

I can't agree. They'd simply bring the forms to someone to fill them in for them.

20-07-2013 01:32AM

Dammo wrote: »

I can't agree. They'd simply bring the forms to someone to fill them in for them.

True, but you need more Irish speakers for that to happen, so perpetuating the need for the language.

onemorechance · 20-07-2013 01:44AM

There has been an increase in the number of children being educated entirely in Irish for the last 40 years.

A lot of immigrants, especially those from Africa, prefer to send their children to the gaelscoil as they feel it will help them integrate into Irish society and culture more, as well as improve their intellect since they will be able to think and speak in a second or third language.

Rayne Wooney · 20-07-2013 02:38AM

Every time a thread or a variation of it pops up the "dead language" and "west Brit" sh*te always comes out.

To answer the thread question, why can nobody speak Irish? Well.. Some people.. sort of.. can speak it?

If the question was meant to be, why don't more people speak Irish. That's different altogether. I think it's because of the system here, not enough time is given to actually speaking the language in classrooms, there's too much time spent reading to improve vocabulary. If it was up to me I'd have more emphasis on being able to have basic conversations through Irish, feck the rich vocabulary, you're not going to go up to someone with Irish and say "I can't have a conversation with you, but I can tell you a 100 long impressive words that I've learned off". If the system was improved I'm sure a lot more would take an interest and remember a lot more of the language when they leave school.

I'm fluent and really do love the language and the history behind it, as for it not having relevance, it obviously does if 70,000 people speak it every day. I'd encourage people to learn it if they have time. At the end of the day, some people don't want to learn it, and that's fine.

scruff321 · 20-07-2013 03:47AM

Interesting thread and alot of valid points made. I made an effort to keep up speaking Irish when i left school but it can be challenging.

There needs to be a serious rethink in the approach to teaching the language in our schools. Irish is part of our culture no matter what the cynics say. But i do agree in the need to improve the way its taught or make it an elective subject.

On another note its rubbish to say that Irish people arent good at languages, there are plenty of Irish people who speak another language besides English, this is just a cop out, we've turned into the lazy Brits and Yanks,we speak English so whats the point in learning another language.

J_E · 20-07-2013 04:00AM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Teaching of English is not much better than teaching of Irish, yet English is widely spoken in Ireland.

It's not the teaching method that is the reason for Irish not being widely spoken.

Oh come off it. The curriculum is awful and there are a lot of teachers who don't teach it effectively, not necessarily their fault, the way it's taught is pretty rough. Are you really comparing the two subjects? English is miles ahead, by the time you're in secondary school you've already got a pretty good base on both grammar and comprehension whereas with Irish it's almost like the first 6 years never counted.

I worked very hard at Irish in school and still only came out with a C1 at Higher Level, to the detriment of other subjects. I was taking 7 classes a week on it! The Leaving Cert course in particular is very messy and discourages enthusiasm in the language if anything, instead making it feel like a set of hurdles to go through (I'm not sure if the Stair Na Gaeilge is still present at the end of the paper but for most students that was a routine rote learning exercise with little relevance or usefulness)

To be honest, I only wish it were an optional language in schools (removing it from the curriculum would be out of the question for most), this would mean the people who have the interest will take it on and it will get a more well-balanced view as a language. Unfortunately, it's the same minority group of Gaeilgeoir zealots that will insist that everyone must learn it in school, every single form in the country must be bilingual, etc etc...

DEFTLEFTHAND · 20-07-2013 04:21AM

I was in Corr na Mona at the Gaeltacht college years ago (2001), they told us it would be good for our exams in school so the mother sent me, I was 13 and just finishing 1st year. It was a negative experience in many ways for me. One living bitch tore into me the first night there for speaking as Bearla. I was a quiet child just trying to find out what bloody house I was supposed to stay in. I forget that you couldn't use your native tongue once your mom left.

It was really weird because basically the college was a backwater town hall in Corr na Mona Co Galway, nobody spoke Irish in the shops in the village. Even people we'd meet around the area who weren't affiliated with the college spoke English first.
It seemed like a redundant exercise.

[-0-] · 20-07-2013 04:38AM

If this doesn't inspire you to want to learn the language then you have no hope.

20-07-2013 08:47AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Same old question, same old answer.

Ireland has experienced a language shift from Irish to English and few are willing to retain the existing language, thus rendering it effectively obsolete, as it appears to be obsolete it is deemed to be useless!

Sad but, unfortunately true.

For a language to be used it needs a reason to be used to communicate something, if all government welfare benefit claim forms were in Irish only, you can be sure that the uptake of Irish would be higher.

The same could be said for claiming tax-back.

So as a solution you're suggesting MORE state coercion rather than less, interesting. That'll certainly engender a love for 'Irish' in the common people, learn 'YOUR' language or starve.

BognarRegis · 20-07-2013 08:55AM

Cydoniac wrote: »

Oh come off it. The curriculum is awful and there are a lot of teachers who don't teach it effectively, not necessarily their fault, the way it's taught is pretty rough. Are you really comparing the two subjects? .

No, I'm suggesting that proficiency in a language has a lot to do with the social environment where it is learned and the willingness of the pupil to engage.

For English, the environment is practically ideal as we're an English-speaking country and it is our de-facto national language. The pupils have every reason to want to speak English as it is their native language and that of their peers.

If one looks at other countries where they are proficient at a non-native language, for example, the English-speaking Dutch, they have a strong reason to learn English for trade and travel purposes and Dutch and English have some similarities. So, that's a good place to start from.

For Irish, the environment in which it is imposed is much more challenging.

20-07-2013 11:51AM

9959 wrote: »

So as a solution you're suggesting MORE state coercion rather than less, interesting. That'll certainly engender a love for 'Irish' in the common people, learn 'YOUR' language or starve.

What I am saying is for a language to thrive, it needs a reason to be used, for example Israel when the country was formed, it didn't have an official language so the politicians decided on Hebrew despite the fact that none of the post WWII migrants spoke it.

Speak Hebrew or you don't work was how they shifted the language. Ireland did the opposite during the late 19th and for almost all of the 20th century.

Son Of A Vidic · 20-07-2013 12:57PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Is it the way Irish is taught?

Yes. We aren't taught how to speak Irish. Learning what you need to know to get by in a structured exam, doesn't not equate to learning a language. Sadly, it was only ever an exercise in tokenism.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 20-07-2013 01:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What I am saying is for a language to thrive, it needs a reason to be used, for example Israel when the country was formed, it didn't have an official language so the politicians decided on Hebrew despite the fact that none of the post WWII migrants spoke it.

Speak Hebrew or you don't work was how they shifted the language. Ireland did the opposite during the late 19th and for almost all of the 20th century.

always held this belief too and the Israeli example shows it can be done. the current situation is, the entire country (most of) learns the language to not use it. i have often argued that a lot of government business (car tax, benefits etc) is business that could easily be conducted through irish and maybe then the language might spread a bit from there.

it actually gives a meaning and practical reason to learning the language, otherwise it will remain the preserve of linguists, enthusiasts and gaeltacht residents only. i have always said that the country is halfhearted in its commitment to the language, either do it right or just don't bother.

SoulandForm · 20-07-2013 01:10PM

LordSutch wrote: »

1/ Irish is taught as a subject (not a language).
2/ Too many bleedin old poems with no relevence to today.
3/ What's the point? nobody else speaks it when you get home.
4/ Its compulsory, from Primary, through Junior Cert > to Leaving*

*Obviously several subjects are compulsory, but somehow Irish seemed to be an oppressive and a needless necessity, and
you just knew from family & friends that you would probably never speak it in everyday Irish life, hence "What's the point"?

Speaking from my own experience.

Actually you would be shocked by how many people speak Irish regularly in the Dublin area and how many people though fluent are more than happy to help people who's Irish is far from perfect. I believe that the reason so many people do badly in school in the language and shy away from it is fear- through a knowledge of Ireland you can no longer avoid the awful realities of Ireland's past and present. As a country Ireland is suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress, even psychosis as opposed to just stress.

Personally I believe that in order to be able to vote you should have a silver Fáinne.

Wibbs · 20-07-2013 01:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What I am saying is for a language to thrive, it needs a reason to be used, for example Israel when the country was formed, it didn't have an official language so the politicians decided on Hebrew despite the fact that none of the post WWII migrants spoke it.

Speak Hebrew or you don't work was how they shifted the language. Ireland did the opposite during the late 19th and for almost all of the 20th century.

Like clockwork in these threads Hebrew comes up as an example. Unfortunately it's not equivalent on a number of levels. Primary among these is that the new nation desperately needed a native tongue, a lingua franca, precisely because the migrant populations didn't share a common language. Some were German speakers, some Polish, some French, some English and so on.

The Irish people already have an existing native(in sheer practical terms) tongue and lingua franca, it just happens to not be Irish anymore and hasn't been since the early 19th century. So while Hebrew might have been a top down "imposed" language, it needed to be, whereas imposing Irish in the same way would be just an exercise in cultural window dressing and that window dressing has been a large boulder in the road of the Irish language revival in the last century.

Now the Irish are anything but rebellious contrary to some views of ourselves, but we are stubborn in other subtle and not so subtle way and I guarantee any such top down move would fail and fail miserably and would show the true feelings of the majority of Irish people towards the language and would turn that feeling of "meh" to one of outright hostility.

Wibbs · 20-07-2013 01:38PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

I believe that the reason so many people do badly in school in the language and shy away from it is fear- through a knowledge of Ireland you can no longer avoid the awful realities of Ireland's past and present. As a country Ireland is suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress, even psychosis as opposed to just stress.

What utter nonsense. If it was true it means we've been suffering PTSS for over a century. It it was true then you'd have to come to the conclusion that we were a bunch of whiners who just cant let it go. Eh no. Far better to build an effing bridge and walk over it as indeed the vast majority have. Leave those who can't remember the past without handwringing over it to their own navel gazing guff.

Personally I believe that in order to be able to vote you should have a silver Fáinne.

More nonsense and more exclusionary ballsology with it. Bit of a pain for those new Irish citizens from many nations over the last decade for a start. Sure if you want to foster even more resentment towards the language these are great ideas altogether.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 20-07-2013 01:39PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Like clockwork in these threads Hebrew comes up as an example. Unfortunately it's not equivalent on a number of levels. Primary among these is that the new nation desperately needed a native tongue, a lingua franca, precisely because the migrant populations didn't share a common language. Some were German speakers, some Polish, some French, some English and so on.

The Irish people already have an existing native(in sheer practical terms) tongue and lingua franca, it just happens to not be Irish anymore and hasn't been since the early 19th century. So while Hebrew might have been a top down "imposed" language, it needed to be, whereas imposing Irish in the same way would be just an exercise in cultural window dressing and that window dressing has been a large boulder in the road of the Irish language revival in the last century.

Now the Irish are anything but rebellious contrary to some views of ourselves, but we are stubborn in other subtle and not so subtle way and I guarantee any such top down move would fail and fail miserably and would show the true feelings of the majority of Irish people towards the language and would turn that feeling of "meh" to one of outright hostility.

i would have thought a lot of people would wish they had cúpla focal, at least, to use on occasion? i've often heard that said (guessing people's opinions on that issue is futile, i know).

surely it wouldn't be beyond us to aim to have some irish used in daily life, be it local government business or whatever. otherwise, why learn it? i wouldn't argue, at all, that we should aim for near-100% of the population using irish as a primary language here, that ship has sailed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-07-2013 01:48PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

i would have thought a lot of people would wish they had cúpla focal, at least, to use on occasion? i've often heard that said (guessing people's opinions on that issue is futile, i know).

Wouldn't mind, but to be honest, but there are far more important things to do with my life than learn irish for the sake of it.

surely it wouldn't be beyond us to aim to have some irish used in daily life, be it local government business or whatever. otherwise, why learn it? i wouldn't argue, at all, that we should aim for near-100% of the population using irish as a primary language here, that ship has sailed.

I'm sure there are people who will answer the "why learn it" bit.

The problem with 100% is your use of the word "we". "We" don't all want to, and the people who seem to want this don't seem to care about wht wishes and diesires of other people.

If "We" did want it, "We" would do it. "We" would sign up to evening classes and would use what cupla focal we had. But "We*" doesn't.

*not a typo.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 20-07-2013 01:52PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Wouldn't mind, but to be honest, but there are far more important things to do with my life than learn irish for the sake of it.

I'm sure there are people who will answer the "why learn it" bit.

The problem with 100% is your use of the word "we". "We" don't all want to, and the people who seem to want this don't seem to care about wht wishes and diesires of other people.

If "We" did want it, "We" would do it. "We" would sign up to evening classes and would use what cupla focal we had. But "We*" doesn't.

*not a typo.

no more than 'we' don't like that english is spoken as the primary language here! yet 'we' have no choice but to use it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-07-2013 01:59PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

no more than 'we' don't like that english is spoken as the primary language here! yet 'we' have no choice but to use it.

Be careful! There are certainly people around here who will take you up on your use of the word "primary" there as apparently that;s spot is taken up by Irish in the consitition!

Beyond that, while I see you point, I think it's fundamentally wrong to say that people don't want English as the promary langauge. Everthing from doing business to watching the latest episdoe of x-factor will require primary English. It's by far the post practical situation.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 20-07-2013 02:08PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Be careful! There are certainly people around here who will take you up on your use of the word "primary" there as apparently that;s spot is taken up by Irish in the consitition!

Beyond that, while I see you point, I think it's fundamentally wrong to say that people don't want English as the promary langauge. Everthing from doing business to watching the latest episdoe of x-factor will require primary English. It's by far the post practical situation.

not arguing otherwise at all, but irish and english don't have to be mutually exclusive. i'm not a bodhrán-bashing militant, but i would like to see some use of the blasted language after all the time and money put into it. i just think we could create opportunities for people to easily use it, why would we not do that? i would see gaeilge as a beautiful language that i wouldn't ever want to see lost, but thats a personal view, not part of this debate.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-07-2013 02:11PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

not arguing otherwise at all, but irish and english don't have to be mutually exclusive at all. i'm not a bodhrán bashing militant, but i would like to see some use of the blasted language after all the time and money put into it. i just think we could create opportunities for people to easily use it, why would we not do that? i would see gaeilge as a beautiful language that i wouldn't ever want to see lost, but thats a personal view, not part of this debate.

That is something you need to take up with the Dept for the Gaetacht. At a guess, though, I'd stick to the line that it's because not enough people want it.

As i said, facilities are there for adults to go an learn it: why are the not doing so?

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 20-07-2013 02:21PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That is something you need to take up with the Dept for the Gaetacht. At a guess, though, I'd stick to the line that it's because not enough people want it.

As i said, facilities are there for adults to go an learn it: why are the not doing so?

and my point would be that taxing a car, buying a tv licence, getting benefit etc could be done through irish and give some point/aim to the years of learning it. and maybe people then would use the cúpla focal outside those situations as well.

irish people seem to be reluctant to go out of their way to force any kind of issue, look at our indifferent response to austerity in comparison to other countries. irish people for the most part have done nothing to protest austerity, does that mean they agree with it, or just couldn't be bothered doing something about it? we can't assume an opinion from inaction either. looks like we were colonised for about 700 years for a reason, we're too docile!

anyway, i think its a stretch to assume irish people just don't want to use the language. if, say, government business was introduced through the medium of irish only, would people just go along with it, or would they feel so aggrieved as to protest vehemently against it?

as regards choosing not to use irish? we didn't choose english either, no more than we chose to be catholic (in 80% of cases or whatever it is). we go with the flow.

BognarRegis · 20-07-2013 03:13PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

if, say, government business was introduced through the medium of irish only, would people just go along with it, or would they feel so aggrieved as to protest vehemently against it?

I think it could help bring matters to a head.

At present, only children have to comply with the forcible Irish-speaking regulations. A handful of civil-servants are obliged to speak Irish when it's demanded by an enthusiast. Adults can learn to ignore those annoying multi-lingual signs they've been erecting in Dublin which as the Irish text more prominent than the English.

Making Irish compulsory for adults dealing with the state could lead to a proper debate about the constitutional fiction of Irish being our first national language.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 20-07-2013 03:32PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

I think it could help bring matters to a head.

At present, only children have to comply with the forcible Irish-speaking regulations. A handful of civil-servants are obliged to speak Irish when it's demanded by an enthusiast. Adults can learn to ignore those annoying multi-lingual signs they've been erecting in Dublin which as the Irish text more prominent than the English.

Making Irish compulsory for adults dealing with the state could lead to a proper debate about the constitutional fiction of Irish being our first national language.

would love to see irish people get rattled over something!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 20-07-2013 04:57PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Making Irish compulsory for adults dealing with the state could lead to a proper debate about the constitutional fiction of Irish being our first national language.

I'll assume you're not proposing this as a serious suggestion?

shruikan2553 · 20-07-2013 05:05PM

Problem is then people who move over here and have to learn english also have to learn Irish. I dont think for many that learning 2 languages will be worthwhile and they'll just go to england or some other country where they only have to learn 1 language.

Then theres the hassle for even those of us who dont speak Irish. Vast majority in this country use english as there first and only language so why do they have to use irish when english is used now and works fine? It will just fell like irish is being pushed on us so the minority, militant irish speakers can have their day.

Services should be available in Irish first and english if possible second (which I doubt would take too much effort) in gaeltacht areas but outside of those areas the language is barely used.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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