Why can nobody speak Irish?

Davidius · 19-07-2013 05:26AM

babi-hrse wrote: »

for me it was it even too difficult to pronounce a phrase!
i could be told it and i wouldnt be able to repeat it back or write it down as it sounds nothing like it would look written phonetically
and if you did have it written down for you you wouldnt be able to pronounce it! any word over five letters started rapidly getting more difficult.

I think Irish orthography is one of its more friendly features. It's not perfect and obviously dialect dependent but you can very often make reasonably accurate guesses as to how a word is pronounced on spelling alone. By comparison I could never pronounce any French words properly at all - everything sounds like a mass of vowels where there ought to be consonants.

A lot of Irish people can probably 'read' Irish with some degree of awkward intelligibility in their speech without understanding any of it.

shootie · 19-07-2013 05:39AM

As someone who has just completed their LC, I feel that I have a good insight as to why.

It's not that Irish people can't speak/learn languages. It's my opinion that the subject is forced upon people who are simply not motivated to speak it. I could hold a better conversation in my Japanese oral after studying it for 2 years than I did in my Irish one after studying it for 11. Sure, there were people who were great at it, but that's because these people were generally passionate about speaking their native tongue, and would go to Gaeltachts during the summer. Whereas the apparently weak language learners like myself didn't see much of a use for it and would thus be highly unmotivated.

I always thought I was bad with languages until I picked up Japanese. Our teacher would heavily focus on us actually communicating with each other in the language every class. Whereas throughout my own Irish learning teachers would bog me down in grammar and translating stories rather than actually speaking the language. Effectively, we'd have to learn a bunch of rules and words off by heart to write in an exam rather than communicating in the language. Which is what a language is for at the end of the day. So after our 40 minutes learning grammar we'd head out and speak English for the rest of the day after coming out of an Irish class in which teachers instructed us in English.

These are just my own experiences, could differ for many. For what it's worth I plan on learning Irish in the future, without the dreaded Irish classroom environment and actually speaking it.

December2012 · 19-07-2013 07:07AM

I had a great teacher in primary who loved Irish and taught it well.

Every week we would vote for who spoke the most Irish during the week not during Irish class, and the classmate who won got a big bar of chocolate.

Now that's a teaching / inspiration method that worked.

19-07-2013 07:35AM

December2012 wrote: »

I had a great teacher in primary who loved Irish and taught it well.

Every week we would vote for who spoke the most Irish during the week not during Irish class, and the classmate who won got a big bar of chocolate.

Now that's a teaching / inspiration method that worked.

Hopefully it was an IRISH bar of chocolate made in Ireland by Irish speakers.

Slutmonkey57b · 19-07-2013 08:02AM

"badly taught"

Sigh.

It gets more time, more immersion, more resources, more money and more focus than any other subject kids are taught.

Our kids are taught Irish before they're taught maths. They have to use it in schools outside the time allocated to it. It's had 80 years of being forced upon people and still people claim the English killed the language.

The language is a failure. I grew up not speaking it. none of my family spoke it. Nobody I knew spoke it. I never met anyone speaking it. That still holds true.

People do not want to speak it. Leave us alone.

Dostoevsky · 19-07-2013 08:38AM

9959 wrote: »

Hopefully it was an IRISH bar of chocolate made in Ireland by Irish speakers.

Stupid comment.

BeerWolf · 19-07-2013 08:51AM

An Coilean wrote: »

You have been living in Ireland for over 15 years and you don't know a single word of Irish? I would not say that is merely surprising, I would have to say that is simply not true.

It's true cause I got zero interest nor pay any heed to the language? o.O;

19-07-2013 09:14AM

9959 wrote: »

Hopefully it was an IRISH bar of chocolate made in Ireland by Irish speakers.

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Stupid comment.

You don't like it?
Try this.

"Gaels! It delights my Gaelic heart to be here today speaking Gaelic with you at this Gaelic feis in the centre of the Gaeltacht. May I state that I am a Gael. I'm Gaelic from the crown of my heads to the soles of my feet.....If we're truly Gaelic, we must constantly discuss the question of the Gaelic revival and the question of Gaelicism. There is no use having Gaelic, if we converse in it on non-Gaelic topics. He who speaks Gaelic but fails to discuss the language question is not truly Gaelic in his heart; such conduct is of no benifit to Gaelicism because he only jeers at Gaelic and reviles the Gaels. There is nothing in this life so nice and so Gaelic as truly true Gaelic Gaels who speak in true Gaelic Gaelic about the truly Gaelic language"

'The Poor Mouth' by Flann O 'Brien published in 1941.

December2012 · 19-07-2013 09:42AM

9959 wrote: »

Hopefully it was an IRISH bar of chocolate made in Ireland by Irish speakers.

Was usually Cadburys. Barra seaclaid.

Wibbs · 19-07-2013 09:52AM

con1421 wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better if the whole world just spoke 1 language?

Christ no.

beks101 wrote: »

And yes, one of those values for me is that it's handy to converse without being understood by anyone but the person I'm talking to, an advantage most people enjoy no matter what their native tongue is at some stage when they're abroad.

If you want to belittle that as "exclusionary" or dismiss me as some makey uppy "nouveau gaelgeoir" construct to diffuse the points Ive made as to how it's not necessarily a dead, useless, irrelevant language that we should all let go of, then that's your prerogative.

I agree with your other points, I just don't get this secret code stuff at all. It is by very definition exclusionary and often rude with it.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've ofton wondered how did we as a people lose the ability to speak Irish as our first language during the time the English ruled Ireland?

We weren't the only country they colonized but the others still kept their language and learned to speak English as well.

A unique set of politics, geography and economics. The real nail in the coffin for any native language in the face of an invader tongue is when the educated and wealthy elites stop using it as happened in Ireland. Irish up to the 1600's was the language of philosophy, education, trade and politics here. Even queen Elizabeth 1 of England had a stab at learning it to better understand and deal with the Irish ruling classes(she was actually quite the talented polyglot who spoke a load of languages). As an example of how important it was lizzy actually promoted the Irish language in the hope of making high value converts to Protestantism. During the 17th century it seems the elites dropped the language bit by bit and in the towns and cities the language retreated. The ethnic cleansing type shíte of Cromwellian times onwards(though he wasn't actually the worst of those gits) really buggered it and in a way it went to hell and Connaught. It became a "peasant" tongue, only really spoken by the poor and that was it's real death knell as a native tongue for the majority. It came to be seen as contracted, poor, unfashionable and backward. Even Daniel O'Connel described it as backward. The Great Hunger which killed off millions and scattered millions more to the four corners*, most of whom were Irish speakers near flatlined it.

That feeling that the language is backward and useless, still holds sway today to quite the degree, though that's less so than it was which is good. When I was growing up in the 70's and 80's in Dublin, it was most certainly seen as the "language of Culshies", insular, parochial and backward and not "modern" and dismissed beyond using it enough to get a grade in the LC. Even as a kid I found this strange, mainly because those most vocal labeling it as culshie were nearly always themselves first generation sons and daughters of "culshies" who moved en masse to Dublin in the 50's and 60's. Some weird insecurity about their origins thing going on(which also translated into elocution lessons to drop the rural accents).

Funny enough, my lot, who have been Dubs since the ark weren't nearly as dismissive about the language itself.

In other areas of the british empire that didn't happen, so there wasn't that disconnect. EG say somewhere like India. While the maharaja's and the like were often/usually complicit in enabling the empire they and the rest of the local elites kept speaking their local languages.

Irish itself was even an invader language at one time. Scots Gaelic is an Irish dialect. Scotland had at least one other Pictish language way back in the day. Irish colonies in western Scotland squeezed it out and it really got squeezed when the Irish missionaries spread through Scotland bringing education, literature and trade on their coattails and the languages they spoke were Irish and Latin. The Elites bought into this and that filtered down to the masses and Pictish went extinct.

Plus the English had a much longer influence here compared to the time of the British empire. 800 years compared to 200 odd.

*interestingly for me those native speakers when they went overseas seemed to bring this feeling with them and dropped the language in their new countries too. Other diasporas tended to keep more of their languages in use. So in the US today Irish americans are the second largest group in the place, but the language comes in at something like 70th place in daily usage. There are more daily Dutch American speakers. This didn't just happen in english speaking places either, it happened in places like Argentina too.

MagnusDamm · 19-07-2013 10:24AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've ofton wondered how did we as a people lose the ability to speak Irish as our first language during the time the English ruled Ireland?

We weren't the only country they colonized but the others still kept their language and learned to speak English as well.

I'm thankful we don't speak it. It makes life much easier for us who travel a lot with work. Imagine trying to communicate through that horrible language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-07-2013 10:36AM

December2012 wrote: »

Was usually Cadburys. Barra seaclaid.

Barra Seaclaid? Was that the teacher? :pac:

fishy fishy · 19-07-2013 10:38AM

December2012 wrote: »

I had a great teacher in primary who loved Irish and taught it well.

Every week we would vote for who spoke the most Irish during the week not during Irish class, and the classmate who won got a big bar of chocolate.

Now that's a teaching / inspiration method that worked.

unless you're a diabetic - then you are on the road to hell

December2012 · 19-07-2013 10:47AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

unless you're a diabetic - then you are on the road to hell

Delicious hell!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-07-2013 10:51AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

unless you're a diabetic - then you are on the road to hell

Just because they can't spell is no reason to disclude them

astonaidan · 19-07-2013 12:14PM

MagnusDamm wrote: »

I'm thankful we don't speak it. It makes life much easier for us who travel a lot with work. Imagine trying to communicate through that horrible language.

Could you well, not just have two languages. The Germans would be the perfect example of this, you very rarely find a German who doesnt speak English.
And the English Ive met, besides all the Royal Britannia type all wish they spoke a second language

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-07-2013 12:55PM

astonaidan wrote: »

Could you well, not just have two languages. The Germans would be the perfect example of this, you very rarely find a German who doesnt speak English.
And the English Ive met, besides all the Royal Britannia type all wish they spoke a second language

Believe me, there are a lot who don't.

The counteries that do speak English well, are the oens that don't intorduce a secodn language until the age of about 10 or so, and even then focus on practical application.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 19-07-2013 04:49PM

i think the actual irish courses need to be looked at, both at primary and secondary school level.

what is it that people constantly complain about? that after years of learning irish, students then can't speak a word of it. fair enough, why is this happening?

look at the course content at both junior and senior level, at junior level there is an optional oral, which the vast majority of schools don't do, for a variety of reasons i'm not getting into now. so therefore from 1st-3rd, very little focus is on spoken irish. what does the junior course contain? listening comprehension, reading comprehensions, studied prose and poetry and composition (write an extended story, or essay, and a letter). therefore the course is mostly writing and reading. if a teacher does their job well, a student should be able to read and write to the required level, i'm sure this is time a consuming exercise and they haven't got time to create fluent speakers while they're at it.

at senior level, the new oral exam accounts for 40% of the course. this is a welcome change, however, the allocation of 15 minutes for an exam that contains poetry reading, a picture series description (of which there are 20 to prepare- too much for ordinary level students, and learned by rote by higher level students) and then about 8 minutes of conversation (8 minutes of chat after all this time learning irish!). the remainder of the senior course is still very time consuming. 5 poems, 5 stories all to be studied regarding techniques, themes, style, characters etc. then, generally, students study an triail and they must prepare answers on characters, themes etc. all of this work only amounts to 10% of the course, yet takes up an amount of class-time. they also must prepare essays on topics related to current affairs, which any gaeilgeoir would have to prepare for, in order to provide the kinds of essays required at this level. after that, you have the usual listening comprehension and reading comprehensions.

my question is, do these course structures allow for the regular and engaging practice of conversation, use of media in class or the application of irish to everyday life? or are students rushing through course content to get through exams, even the oral becomes a rote-learned exercise,where students prepare for anticipated questions and nothing besides.

i think, given the current demands on students regarding their irish studies (and many other subjects), we are creating jacks of all aspects of irish and masters of none.

i did well enough in my leaving cert irish, had a teacher who prepared us thoroughly and did his job excellently, yet i would not have held an off-the-cuff conversation as gaeilge with you in a million years.

this debate, like many others needs to be more than the usual- i blame the kids; i blame the teachers; irish people are no good at languages etc.

the current courses, i would argue, ask students to be principally prepared in the areas of reading, writing and listening. the workload is probably too big to then allow for students to sit down and take the time and practice their spoken irish. we are currently getting what the courses demand.

before i ramble on!! i remember when i had done leaving cert irish that i would have written you an essay on nuclear war faster than i would talk to you about next week's weather, sports, fashion, tv etc. something is wrong somewhere!

BognarRegis · 19-07-2013 06:37PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

what is it that people constantly complain about? that after years of learning irish, students then can't speak a word of it. fair enough, why is this happening?

Teaching of English is not much better than teaching of Irish, yet English is widely spoken in Ireland.

It's not the teaching method that is the reason for Irish not being widely spoken.

An Coilean · 19-07-2013 06:40PM

BeerWolf wrote: »

It's true cause I got zero interest nor pay any heed to the language? o.O;

Sorry, unless you'v just come out of a coma, I don't believe you.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 19-07-2013 06:41PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Teaching of English is not much better than teaching of Irish, yet English is widely spoken in Ireland.

It's not the teaching method that is the reason for Irish not being widely spoken.

i didn't say 'widely' spoken anywhere. irish isn't widely spoken mainly because of colonisation, or indeed The Famine, which was the final nail in the coffin as people abandoned irish for economic reasons.

i asked why students of irish cannot speak it after studying it (ie. don't have the ability to do so) , not why is the whole country not speaking it.

Wacker The Attacker · 19-07-2013 08:48PM

My Sister had twins in December.

She lived in Madrid for a number of years and is a fluent spanish speaker. Her husband lived in milan and is a fluent italian speaker.

These two young kids will have a greater working knowledge of the Italian and Spanish languages before they start school then they will of irish when they finish.

In life these languages will prove of far greater benefit to them than Irish ever will.

BognarRegis · 19-07-2013 09:19PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

i asked why students of irish cannot speak it after studying it (ie. don't have the ability to do so) , not why is the whole country not speaking it.

To speak Irish well one must practice speaking it.

You must think about why they don't practice Irish.

SherlockWatson · 19-07-2013 09:25PM

WindSock wrote: »

More people have heard Dothraki being spoken than they have Irish, Welsh, Scottish and Cornish combined.

No they haven't.

shruikan2553 · 19-07-2013 09:31PM

SherlockWatson wrote: »

No they haven't.

Since Ive done my leaving cert that is probably ttue. I may have heard more irish than high valyraian though

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 19-07-2013 09:55PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

To speak Irish well one must practice speaking it.

You must think about why they don't practice Irish.

first sentence is my entire point, we're not producing even adequate gaeilgeoirí in most cases due to a lack of practice speaking the language, at school especially.

second a matter of opinion, you could argue lack of opportunity, lack of interest and numerous other points til cows come home. its not a specific problem to irish either, where do students go in this country for a conversation in any of the languages they have studied in order to maintain a level in that language? or why don't they, as you might put it?plenty people study french, german etc. and most likely lose it all within a few years.

moving away from the point to my post anyway.

BognarRegis · 19-07-2013 10:17PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

first sentence is my entire point, we're not producing even adequate gaeilgeoirí in most cases due to a lack of practice speaking the language, at school especially....moving away from the point to my post anyway.

'Produce' is a very odd way of thinking about it...suggests a factory output.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 19-07-2013 10:22PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

'Produce' is a very odd way of thinking about it...suggests a factory output.

it does, you're correct...................................................

nineteen66 · 19-07-2013 10:56PM

Irish is a very handy language to have if you want to get work abroad...............especially in certain parts of Boston

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 19-07-2013 11:32PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Teaching of English is not much better than teaching of Irish, yet English is widely spoken in Ireland.

It's not the teaching method that is the reason for Irish not being widely spoken.

It's both.

Teaching of English is a lot better because moer emphasis is on grammar and written content and the teachers are native speakers to start with. It's also a muc easier subject to learn and teach when it's the common tongue.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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