Why can nobody speak Irish?

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 03:32PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I have no idea - why are you asking?

I'm not talking about the decision. You are assuming I'm talking the decision.

I'm talking about the will. The desire. The opinion - and the 4 year old will form an opinion - and that will go a long way to deciding whether or not the kid will take to the langauge or not.

They will decide whether or not they like something - that, I argued. A parent can not decide that for a four year old any more than a parent can decide that their child likes or does not like spinach. They can still feed the kid spinach, though.

but you just said this in a previous post

"When you present a child with a new activity, they ask two questions: is this fun? and is this something useful? If something fails to pass these tests, it will be dropped fairly quickly".

Going by your post above, if the kid doesn't deem if fun, it will be dropped. So swimming, sports, etc all all deemed "unnecessary" and can be dropped fairly quickly. Don't get it, but I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cienciano · 18-07-2013 03:33PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

there is a few things not dependent on "tax" - speaking your native language is one of them.

Why do they get tax breaks then?

SpaceTime · 18-07-2013 03:35PM

Completely outdated teaching methodologies and a total lack of pop culture in Irish make it quite difficult.

If you're learning French, German, Spanish etc it's possible to plug into pop-culture and at least see a living language. Irish, sadly, is a very small language and it's really on life support and has very little organic pop culture around it.

WumBuster · 18-07-2013 03:41PM

Its a pretty tough language to learn compared to English, French, German. It never feels natural when trying to speak it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 03:42PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

but you just said this in a previous post

"When you present a child with a new activity, they ask two questions: is this fun? and is this something useful? If something fails to pass these tests, it will be dropped fairly quickly".

Going by your post above, if the kid doesn't deem if fun, it will be dropped. So swimming, sports, etc all all deemed "unnecessary" and can be dropped fairly quickly. Don't get it, but I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

When I said "dropped" I mean their interest in it. whether ot not the stop doing it is larguely out of their power. But if you want kids learning Irish, that is an obstalce to overcome. And, going back to the starting point, kids can decide wehther or not somethign is practical to them pretty quickly.

Most kids who don't like certain sports don't see a practical use for them, drop them, correct. Why would the keep doing them?

Beyond that, you seem to be arguing that if a kid is forced to do soemthing, he'll automatically be interested in it, or find a sue for it, which makes no sense whatsoever.

Dostoevsky · 18-07-2013 03:43PM

SpaceTime wrote: »

Completely outdated teaching methodologies and a total lack of pop culture in Irish make it quite difficult.

Plenty of stuff going on in this regard. Coláiste Lurgan in Conamara, for instance, has produced stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zaq87L2tac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz63M3v11nE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pCtAQwwGPI

I am pie · 18-07-2013 03:43PM

Why can nobody speak Irish?

The vast majority of people don't want to and have no need to. It is as simple as that.

Stojkovic · 18-07-2013 03:49PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Round up a few sports coaches, art/dance teachers, scout leaders and so on - people who the kids see in extra-curricular activites - who have a bit of Irish and get them to teach it while teachign art or boxing or whatever. Not do the whole lesson/training session in Irish, but a few phrases here and there so that kids see Irish as something that exists outside of a classroom.

I use words/phrases like 'libero', 'trequartista' and 'catenaccio'.

An Coilean · 18-07-2013 03:51PM

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Plenty of stuff going on in this regard. Coláiste Lurgan in Conamara, for instance, has produced stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zaq87L2tac

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz63M3v11nE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pCtAQwwGPI

Then theres other stuff like - Na Gaeil Óga
Óga Yoga
All the University Irish Language societies, Other College's like Coláiste Uisce in Mayo, theres Raidio Rí Rá, various things going on with TG4, quite a lot of stuff going on really.

Reindeer · 18-07-2013 03:56PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

They most certainly can not.

This is a big myth I see repeated. You really haven't a clue of the standard of English outside anglophone countries until you start speaking their own native language with them. There might be more proficient English speakers in other countries than proficient speakers of foreign languages here, but really it's a reasonably small, educated section of the population. Try going outside the tourist-friendly areas of France or even Germany with only English, and you WILL have a tough time.

I dunno. I was very impressed with how well they spoke English in Birmingham. They were nearly as intelligible as the Germans and French I run in to on their holidays.

SpaceTime · 18-07-2013 03:59PM

WumBuster wrote: »

Its a pretty tough language to learn compared to English, French, German. It never feels natural when trying to speak it.

Possibly because it's largely taught by second-language speakers who don't necessarily have a great grasp of the phonetics of it to start with.

I find a lot of Irish teachers, especially at primary level, butcher it because they aren't really fluent.

BeerWolf · 18-07-2013 05:17PM

An Coilean wrote: »

You sure about that?

"Gaelic" wouldn't count - I'm pretty damn hopeless anyways when it comes to languages.

Sam Kade · 18-07-2013 05:22PM

Dr Bob wrote: »

Regardless of how badly its taught, theres one sentence in Irish most people never forget

"An bhfuil cead agam dul go dtí an leithreas, más é do thoil é?"

We only asked to go out " An bhfuil cead agam dul amach mas e do thoil e?"

Can't find the fada on the iPhone.

hatrickpatrick · 18-07-2013 05:27PM

If they'd dump the depressing literature and boring ass example stories it'd be a lot better. The problem with Irish is its taught in secondary school as English is in Kindergarten. You know how no one learns higher level maths by doing "John has our apples, Sarah has six apples..." sh!te? Irish is a subject in which these child oriented ways of teaching continue right through to the leaving cert and you walk into an Irish class knowing you're about to spend half an hour either depressed (from reading prescribed stories about death, famine, poverty, war, broken families, etc) or bored stiff (from trying to learn grammar rules and so on in a manner which would be more suited to a six year old.

Seriously, my dad is big into Irish and as a result I know that there are stories in Irish which are not only entertaining but will actually make you laugh and are amusing. Why then do we get utter sh!te like "An Bhean Og" in the leaving cert? Are the prescribed texts chosen by someone with clinical depression who wants to pass it on to everyone else?

MickFleetwood · 18-07-2013 05:31PM

It's taught very badly, doesn't have a practical use, nobody ever actually speaks it and thus it leads to people only learning the language during school, which they despise.

MickFleetwood · 18-07-2013 05:55PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

nice excuse from people that are incapable of learning it.

For the people capable of understanding and speaking it, it is very much alive.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Stop being so condescending. :rolleyes: Perhaps he's not incapable, just doesn't bother to waste his time with it?

solas111 · 18-07-2013 06:00PM

First of all, a great number of people in Ireland can and do speak Irish fluently both in Gaeltacht areas and throughout the country. However, the majority do not and there are probably several reasons.

You only have to look at the replies from some who have posted here to see that as a nation the Irish have lost all pride. Irish history is no longer taught as it used to be in schools for fear of offending some minority or other and what is now taught is revised to suit the whims of some politically correct idiots. If you cannot see where you have come from you are likely to have little idea of where you are going. People who take their values from the British tabloids as many do in Ireland are unlikely to be able to see past their own noses. Therefore, where ignorance and stupidity prevail, things of value such as our own language will be discarded in the same way that such people throw their rubbish out of car windows along the road.

On a more positive note, there is great interest in Irish in many foreign countries and there are students from everywhere from the U.S. and Canada to the Far East coming to Ireland to learn the language. Just like some savage tribes attacked and destroyed ancient civilizations and their monuments, there will always be ignorant people who are all too willing to put down their own language.

MickFleetwood · 18-07-2013 06:03PM

solas111 wrote: »

First of all, a great number of people in Ireland can and do speak Irish fluently both in Gaeltacht areas and throughout the country. However, the majority do not and there are probably several reasons.

You only have to look at the replies from some who have posted here to see that as a nation the Irish have lost all pride. Irish history is no longer taught as it used to be in schools for fear of offending some minority or other and what is now taught is revised to suit the whims of some politically correct idiots. If you cannot see where you have come from you are likely to have little idea of where you are going. People who take their values from the British tabloids as many do in Ireland are unlikely to be able to see past their own noses. Therefore, where ignorance and stupidity prevail, things of value such as our own language will be discarded in the same way that such people throw their rubbish out of car windows along the road.

On a more positive note, there is great interest in Irish in many foreign countries and there are students from everywhere from the U.S. and Canada to the Far East coming to Ireland to learn the language. Just like some savage tribes attacked and destroyed ancient civilizations and their monuments, there will always be ignorant people who are all too willing to put down their own language.

I'd love to be able to fluently speak Irish, but unfortunately it's taught so atrociously bad that I cannot string together a sentence properly. Maybe I'll learn it later in life but for the time being I have no resources available to me.

My main gripe however is those condescending fúckheads (I'm sure you know them) when it comes to people not willing to speak the language.

shruikan2553 · 18-07-2013 06:27PM

solas111 wrote: »

First of all, a great number of people in Ireland can and do speak Irish fluently both in Gaeltacht areas and throughout the country. However, the majority do not and there are probably several reasons.

You only have to look at the replies from some who have posted here to see that as a nation the Irish have lost all pride. Irish history is no longer taught as it used to be in schools for fear of offending some minority or other and what is now taught is revised to suit the whims of some politically correct idiots. If you cannot see where you have come from you are likely to have little idea of where you are going. People who take their values from the British tabloids as many do in Ireland are unlikely to be able to see past their own noses. Therefore, where ignorance and stupidity prevail, things of value such as our own language will be discarded in the same way that such people throw their rubbish out of car windows along the road.

On a more positive note, there is great interest in Irish in many foreign countries and there are students from everywhere from the U.S. and Canada to the Far East coming to Ireland to learn the language. Just like some savage tribes attacked and destroyed ancient civilizations and their monuments, there will always be ignorant people who are all too willing to put down their own language.

People who have irish as a language are all happy about it and think its great, in fact they think its so great we should all speak it. No idea why you think they put down their language

Maximuspullo. · 18-07-2013 06:45PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Firstly, there is no real "Irish". There is sligo/donegal/galway irish, and your teacher(s) can teach you one or many dialects and you can be examined in another.

Secondly, the vast majority of the teaching is crammed down your neck in the form of rote learning. Language is best learned by example and context. Children by and large do not learn to speak english by being forced to memorize and regurgitate.

Thirdly, as a nation, we suck at all languages.
It's not just irish, it's french/german etc. Why this is i couldn't tell you.

And then there is the question of relevance. From the get-go, i knew the language was a dying one.
Useless in a county where a tiny minority speak it, useless in business, useless in trade, useless to anybody other than preening culture whores.
As such, in school i gave it the bare minimum of my attention and focused more on maths, the sciences, etc, where what you learn may actually be useful.

Shocking attitude to your own heritage to be honest. Because it isn't useful in business, it is useless? Talk about killing your own heritage. They have no concept of culture in the Irish Republic.

MickFleetwood · 18-07-2013 06:56PM

Maximuspullo. wrote: »

Shocking attitude to your own heritage to be honest. Because it isn't useful in business, it is useless? Talk about killing your own heritage. They have no concept of culture in the Irish Republic.

Well, yes, by definition it is useless as it has no actual use. Anybody who can speak Irish in Ireland can also speak perfect English, so it doesn't allow you to communicate with anybody you couldn't already before.

Anyway, languages are learned so you can communicate with others who also speak the language. You cannot do this with Irish unless you get a strange kick out of talking to people in a different dialect, despite the fact you don't actually need to.

Why do you, and various others, need to bring up the "heritage" aspect of it? A language that offers no benefits of any kind outside of superficial ones shouldn't be pushed onto people who don't want to learn it. Those who do have an active interest in it should be allowed to pursue and further those interests, but why should the majority have to bend over for the minority in public schools?

Make it optional. Those who want to learn it will, those who don't will not. It will never die out as it is a recorded language available to almost anybody to learn via texts, dictionaries, etc.

68Murph68 · 18-07-2013 07:26PM

In the last census 77,185 out of a population of 4,581,268 said that they speak Irish daily.

That's 1.68%

If that's not a dead language, I don't know what is, especially when you consider just how many of those 4,581,268 would have gone through the standard 14 years of Irish in school.

demanufactured · 18-07-2013 07:53PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

nice excuse from people that are incapable of learning it.

For the people capable of understanding and speaking it, it is very much alive.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

I am perfectly capable of learning a language , I choose not to.

IM0 · 18-07-2013 09:01PM

its a ****e language no one cares about or has any need for, simple really

An Coilean · 18-07-2013 09:03PM

BeerWolf wrote: »

"Gaelic" wouldn't count - I'm pretty damn hopeless anyways when it comes to languages.

You have been living in Ireland for over 15 years and you don't know a single word of Irish? I would not say that is merely surprising, I would have to say that is simply not true.

IM0 · 18-07-2013 09:05PM

An Coilean wrote: »

You have been living in Ireland for over 15 years and you don't know a single word of Irish? I would not say that is merely surprising, I would have to say that is simply not true.

ciuneas cailin bainne deas

Galwayguy35 · 18-07-2013 09:22PM

Del2005 wrote: »

I blame her

+1

The miserable auld biddy should have kept her depressing life to herself because none of us wanted to hear it anyway.

Il Giornale · 18-07-2013 09:24PM

MickFleetwood wrote: »

Well, yes, by definition it is useless as it has no actual use. Anybody who can speak Irish in Ireland can also speak perfect English, so it doesn't allow you to communicate with anybody you couldn't already before.

Anyway, languages are learned so you can communicate with others who also speak the language. You cannot do this with Irish unless you get a strange kick out of talking to people in a different dialect, despite the fact you don't actually need to.

Why do you, and various others, need to bring up the "heritage" aspect of it? A language that offers no benefits of any kind outside of superficial ones shouldn't be pushed onto people who don't want to learn it. Those who do have an active interest in it should be allowed to pursue and further those interests, but why should the majority have to bend over for the minority in public schools?

Make it optional. Those who want to learn it will, those who don't will not. It will never die out as it is a recorded language available to almost anybody to learn via texts, dictionaries, etc.

Learning another language expands your mind and keeps it from atrophying. Also the world would be a less interesting place if all "useless" languages died off. Culture is important, and the Irish language is part of our culture.

MickFleetwood · 18-07-2013 09:30PM

Il Giornale wrote: »

Learning another language expands your mind and keeps it from atrophying. Also the world would be a less interesting place if all "useless" languages died off. Culture is important, and the Irish language is part of our culture.

Yes, learning a language does expand your mind. As does an unending amount of other things that I enjoy doing and learning about. It's still highly uninteresting and tedious to me, not to mention it has no practical use; so I don't try to learn it. Stating that it expands your mind does not necessarily put it above the mounds of other activities/subjects that do the same thing. If I wanted to learn a language, it would be something more along the lines of French, German, Spanish, Italian, etc. As that actually allows me to communicate with a large amount of other people. Irish doesn't do this.

As I've stated before, Irish will not "die out" as it's already been recorded through various texts and books. The information is there to be absorbed, and to think otherwise would be naive. Those who have an active interest in it could then seek out the available info and learn the language. Those who do not wish to learn it could then choose not to, also. It's a pure win-win situation, everybody is satisfied and content.

18-07-2013 09:38PM

Il Giornale wrote: »

Learning another language expands your mind and keeps it from atrophying. Also the world would be a less interesting place if all "useless" languages died off. Culture is important, and the Irish language is part of our culture.

Congratulations on your first post!

Is learning another language the only away to avoid 'mind atrophy'?, what about:
Reading
Writing
Composing music
Playing Chess
Having a deep and meaningful conversation
Making 'the beast with two backs'
Posting on boards.ie
Drinking cans of beer whilst contemplating the meaning of life.
Discovering uncharted galaxies with a pair of cheap binoculars etc.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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