Why can nobody speak Irish?

CruelCoin · 18-07-2013 01:26PM

IrishExpat wrote: »

A sound I'll gladly never hear again!

'Léigh anois go cúramach ar do scrúdpháipéar na treoracha agus na ceisteanna ...'

(not good at this so bear with me)

...agawn a cuid B........BEEEEEEEEEEEEEPPP

Dia duit a maire, conas a ta tu?
O REA O REA!

Burned into my ****ing ears.

I am pie · 18-07-2013 01:27PM

It is a hindrance, if that time was devoted to maths or other core sciences we really might have the knowledge economy that people used to chirp on about. We have very high levels of investment from the US, mostly in high tech or bio. We could be a technology leader in Europe if we could educate appropriately. Let Irish by an opt in subject for people who care about it, fund any voluntary groups properly for people who do want to preserve it by stop wasting valuable classroom hours on people who will forget it quickly and will never really use it in anger.

Cienciano · 18-07-2013 01:28PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

Its only a "dead language" to those who can't speak it.

Irish is still very much alive and is the main language used on many Islands and around the West of Ireland - it is certainly not a dead language. In fact it is growing in popularity, with people from other countries attending Irish language classes which are usually booked out.

Irish leaves a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths after the way it was taught in school - however, that shouldn't be a reason to hate the language, instead of just hating how it was taught.

Irish, when you understand it is a very lovely language.

Take away the tax breaks in Gaeltach areas and it's a dead language. It's not quite dead left, thanks to the tax payers life support system

OldNotWIse · 18-07-2013 01:28PM

The only thing I remember is leigh anois go curamach ar do scrudphaipeir, na treoracha agus na ceisteann a ghaman na cuid aaaaah.

Quin_Dub · 18-07-2013 01:33PM

Having gone to an All-Irish primary school (30+ years ago!!) my Irish is fine..

However , watching my children being taught Irish now, I can see the fundamental flaws in the way the language is taught...

Basically , we try to teach Irish the way we teach English (or the way the French kids learn French etc.) -Basic grammar , limited practical examples and then move quickly into Literature - Very short Stories etc. in Primary and then rapidly into Poetry, Drama & Prose in 2nd level.

The problem is , unlike English , virtually no one is speaking Irish outside the class-room so the teaching method simply doesn't work.

We need to completely scrap the current curriculum and replace it with one the closely mirrors the way we teach French/German etc. - Lots of practical examples , lots of listening comprehensions and so on...

That's the only way to actually get people knowing how to speak Irish when they leave school.

shruikan2553 · 18-07-2013 01:43PM

They seem to act as if you can already speak the language. I spent more time learning off an essay about the theme of love in a poem than learning to use the language.

When I was in the netherlands I actually began picking up the language quite quickly. Couldnt hold a conversation but I knew some basic words after 3 days. Suppose it was actually used there so it was of use for me to learn a little.

dd972 · 18-07-2013 01:43PM

The Welsh have kept their language alive better than we have and they're still within the UK, must be a myriad of reasons why.

Stepping Stone · 18-07-2013 01:52PM

kraggy wrote: »

Anyone who got an honour in Gaeilge in the Leaving Cert is actually well able to speak it.

On this, I got an honour in Irish. I literally could not form a sentence in Irish. The basics had never been taught to us, so by the time I hit secondary school I really struggled.

Luckily, I have a really good memory and was able to learn off whatever I needed. I scraped a C in the junior cert using this method. I failed the aural without a doubt. I hadn't a hope in hell.

Roll on the leaving, I learned off political esssys, answers to poetry questions and evetything else I needed.

I learned off the stuff for the oral. Memorized as much as I could. Got a surprisingly good mark, better than the people who could speak Irish.

Why? We reward rote learning. I knew some nouns, knew but could not apply some verbs but I could regurgitate massive amounts of rubbish about the economy, politics, poems, etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 01:53PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Having gone to an All-Irish primary school (30+ years ago!!) my Irish is fine..

However , watching my children being taught Irish now, I can see the fundamental flaws in the way the language is taught...

Basically , we try to teach Irish the way we teach English (or the way the French kids learn French etc.) -Basic grammar , limited practical examples and then move quickly into Literature - Very short Stories etc. in Primary and then rapidly into Poetry, Drama & Prose in 2nd level.

The problem is , unlike English , virtually no one is speaking Irish outside the class-room so the teaching method simply doesn't work.

We need to completely scrap the current curriculum and replace it with one the closely mirrors the way we teach French/German etc. - Lots of practical examples , lots of listening comprehensions and so on...

That's the only way to actually get people knowing how to speak Irish when they leave school.

Have to disagree with you here - you need more than basic grammar and limited practical examples before you move into stories and poetry. I don't think following the French or German examples is a good idea either: how many fluent French and German speakers does the system produce?

The other outside-the-box thinking is to break the connection between Irish and school. Round up a few sports coaches, art/dance teachers, scout leaders and so on - people who the kids see in extra-curricular activites - who have a bit of Irish and get them to teach it while teachign art or boxing or whatever. Not do the whole lesson/training session in Irish, but a few phrases here and there so that kids see Irish as something that exists outside of a classroom.

Simultansouly, drop it as a compulsory subject. That serves no one. And to the majorit of kids - and there is NO getting around this - Irish is not a language, it's a school subject.

18-07-2013 01:55PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Have to disagree with you here - you need more than basic grammar and limited practical examples before you move into stories and poetry.
.

That's why the poster is calling this a flaw...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 02:00PM

bluewolf wrote: »

That's why the poster is calling this a flaw...

Ah.... misread the post.... does make more sense now...:o

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 02:06PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know what your point is, see below.

Because even 4 year olds can see a need for learning how to count. They can see a need for English in learning new words and how to ask for things.

There is also a reason for not teaching foreign languages to kids at the age of 4: it's not necssecary to them. And when I say foreign langauges, I include Irish in this, because to a 4 year old, a foreign language is a languge you don't speak, irrespective of it's origin.

thats quite a funny way of looking at things.

So would you say that a child, who has a mother who cannot speak Irish and a father who is fluent in Irish should not be taught to converse in Irish from a young age because "its just not necessary"

purplepanda · 18-07-2013 02:25PM

dd972 wrote: »

The Welsh have kept their language alive better than we have and they're still within the UK, must be a myriad of reasons why.

Essentially it seems that the non conformist churches in Wales kept the language prominent in cultural & everyday use in schools & chapels, despite English being used for official & business purposes. I seem to recall reading that the Bible was actually translated into Welsh before English?

In stark contrast to the RC Church who couldn't wait for the majority still speaking Irish or being bilingual to abandon the language by actively encouraging it's demise. O'Connell's contempt for the Irish language is well documented.

We have many Ireland's great Protestant patriots to thank for saving the remnants of what's left of traditional & historical Irish culture. By the forming of the Gaelic League & other cultural organisations.

Certainly not the Church who are also guilty of cultural oppression of the Irish nation over the centuries yet many are prepared to ignore their deeds, even to this day!!!

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 02:26PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It's not credit or otherwise, it's how they think. Your average 4 year old is very practical. Why do you think they ask "why?" so often?

And to them, fun is a very practical concern. It it's not fun, it's pointless and when most of the posters your disagreeing with started irish, it most certainly was not fun.

crazy way of looking at things. Kids of four cannot decide what is practical or what is not.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 02:29PM

Cienciano wrote: »

Take away the tax breaks in Gaeltach areas and it's a dead language. It's not quite dead left, thanks to the tax payers life support system

there is a few things not dependent on "tax" - speaking your native language is one of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 02:37PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

thats quite a funny way of looking at things.

So would you say that a child, who has a mother who cannot speak Irish and a father who is fluent in Irish should not be taught to converse in Irish from a young age because "its just not necessary"

You misunderstand. I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves. And whether or not said child "should" be taught irish is irrelevant - it's whether ot not the child will actually want to learn it.

fishy fishy wrote: »

crazy way of looking at things. Kids of four cannot decide what is practical or what is not.

Of course they can. They know it's practical to eat so you don't get hungry. They know it's practical to wea clothes so you don't get cold. The know it's practical to go to the toilet or...

godwin · 18-07-2013 02:37PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

In fairness, most European kids don;t start learning English until the aget of about 10 or so. But again - it's a practical thing to learn for them.

In fairness , kids like this grow up with English via popular music and and tv/film , walk around any shopping district in any major non-English speaking city and all you hear is music in English , turn on TV and there you have MTV or similar playing music of which 90% is in English , the same cannot be said for the Irish language.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 02:44PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You misunderstand. I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves. And whether or not said child "should" be taught irish is irrelevant - it's whether ot not the child will actually want to learn it.

Of course they can. They know it's practical to eat so you don't get hungry. They know it's practical to wea clothes so you don't get cold. The know it's practical to go to the toilet or...

so four year olds are better off "deciding" what the WANT to do rather than the parents knowing whats best for them.

No wonder the worlds gone mad.

A four year old doesn't even know what the word practical means. But you didn't answer the question about one parent being fluent irish - is it not practical for the child to learn it?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 02:45PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

so four year olds are better off "deciding" what the WANT to do rather than the parents knowing whats best for them.

No wonder the worlds gone mad.

Not what I said.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 02:47PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not what I said.

I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 02:49PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

I'm not going to tell a 4 year old what is and is not practical, the 4 year old will decide for themselves

They will deide what they want for themselves, that is correct. But you said that the should be given it, not me.

Nemeses · 18-07-2013 02:55PM

Look, if you want to speak Irish...

Christ the Redeemer · 18-07-2013 02:59PM

I sucked as a student and the education system probably sucked as hard.

Wibbs · 18-07-2013 03:05PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

speaking your native language is one of them.

That's your problem right there, it's not the native language of the majority of Irish people and hasn't been for over a century.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 03:08PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

They will deide what they want for themselves, that is correct. But you said that the should be given it, not me.

no - re-read my post.

Why should a four year old be given what they want? Parents know best. Four year olds need to be taught instead of "deciding" what they want and don't want. They are small children.

Do you agree tho, that if the father is a fluent Irish speaker and the mother is a fluent English speaker then the child should know both languages, or is it a case of the child not bothering learning Irish as it isn't "necessary". Sorry but a four year old child can't make those decisions.

Wibbs · 18-07-2013 03:10PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

Do you agree tho, that if the father is a fluent Irish speaker and the mother is a fluent English speaker then the child should know both languages, or is it a case of the child not bothering learning Irish as it isn't "necessary". Sorry but a four year old child can't make those decisions.

In such a case the kid will use both languages as it is plainly useful to do so, even to a small child, just like it would be the case if the dad was French or Russian.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 03:24PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

no - re-read my post.

Why should a four year old be given what they want?

I have no idea - why are you asking?

Do you agree tho, that if the father is a fluent Irish speaker and the mother is a fluent English speaker then the child should know both languages, or is it a case of the child not bothering learning Irish as it isn't "necessary". Sorry but a four year old child can't make those decisions.

I'm not talking about the decision. You are assuming I'm talking the decision.

I'm talking about the will. The desire. The opinion - and the 4 year old will form an opinion - and that will go a long way to deciding whether or not the kid will take to the langauge or not.

They will decide whether or not they like something - that, I argued. A parent can not decide that for a four year old any more than a parent can decide that their child likes or does not like spinach. They can still feed the kid spinach, though.

An Coilean · 18-07-2013 03:24PM

BeerWolf wrote: »

Been living in Ireland since '96 - don't know a single word of Irish... :pac:

You sure about that?

Wattle · 18-07-2013 03:26PM

For most people the language ceases being relevant once they finish their Leaving Cert. After that they encounter it seldom if at all.

shruikan2553 · 18-07-2013 03:31PM

Heres another way to look at it, why should we speak it? Why make it compulsary for every student from when they start education until they finish? At least you should be able to drop the subject after junior cert. There are many people like me who have never had any interest in learning the language and never will.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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