Why can nobody speak Irish?

PhlegmyMoses · 18-07-2013 11:44AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Sorry, but complete rubbish. When you're a kid, Santa and the Tooth Fairy have infinitly more practical applications than Irish.

You're kind of missing my point here. There is no way that a 4 year old child has the critical reasoning necessary or intellectual wherewithal to decide that Irish doesn't need to be learned. They go to class and they learn what the teacher tells them to. Anybody claiming that they were wise to the fact that Irish was "useless" at that age is talking out of their hoop.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 11:48AM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Of course. You assume all rural Ireland is some sort of Gaelgoir idyll, you'll have to go to isolated arse ends of Galway or Kerry to find your Shangri La.

maybe thats where you are going wrong. You should travel in ireland a little, you could learn a lot.

Wattle · 18-07-2013 11:48AM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

The language is very much alive and kicking, the majority of Irish people speak it and will engage in conversation in it if initiated, but there are differing individual levels of proficiency.

The West Brit elements will naturally, fail to realise this though and admit it.

No they don't. The majority of Irish people have the odd few words but certainly wouldn't be able to hold a conversation.

gobnaitolunacy · 18-07-2013 11:54AM

Wattle wrote: »

No they don't. The majority of Irish people have the odd few words but certainly wouldn't be able to hold a conversation.

This. Most people would struggle beyond asking permission to use the toilet.

The microscopic portion of the population using it as a working language everyday; excluding Gaelgoirs conversing amongst themselves, schoolchildren/teachers, govt employees if part of their job and people who live in Gaeltachts.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 11:58AM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

You're kind of missing my point here. There is no way that a 4 year old child has the critical reasoning necessary or intellectual wherewithal to decide that Irish doesn't need to be learned. They go to class and they learn what the teacher tells them to. Anybody claiming that they were wise to the fact that Irish was "useless" at that age is talking out of their hoop.

Yes, they can.

When you present a child with a new activity, they ask two questions: is this fun? and is this something useful? If something fails to pass these tests, it will be dropped fairly quickly. They will also be brutally honest - if irish is presented in a boring or pointless manner, a 4-year old will get bored and see it as fairly pointless to them pretty quickly, because they'll also be brutally selfish.

Alun · 18-07-2013 11:58AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Also this notion that the rest of Europe is full of polyglots is most certainly untrue. The Scandinavians aside, go outside the tourist areas in France, Spain, Italy, Greece etc and you'll find very few with much of a command of English or any other language.

This ^^^^^ And even in those areas where you get the impression that 'everybody' speaks English, if you actually try and start a proper conversation about something that doesn't involve simply giving directions or ordering a beer, you'll soon discover that their knowledge of English is actually very limited.

WanabeOlympian · 18-07-2013 12:01PM

I speak fluent Irish and can say not many people speak it but a lot can hold a bit of a conversation for the laugh :P Personally i have a small number of friends i speak it with when i see them or go for a pint with them. That's about it to be honest. If you want to see a part of ireland you never even imagined existed go to carraroe night club and see every hammered and roaring in irish and buying shots as gaeilge at the bar... and no they were speaking irish i wasn't drunk at that stage :P

Dostoevsky · 18-07-2013 12:06PM

Phillip Elegant Sorcerer wrote: »

This doesn't help your cause.

There's this weird myth that people who aren't interested in the Irish language are somehow less Irish than the brave Gaeilgeoirí, fighting off the poisonous influence of Béarlachas. It's such bollocks.

Culturally, they are. In the vast majority of countries language is the primary cultural marker. In Ireland, almost uniquely, language as a cultural marker carries home truths about the Irish so other markers are used and this sort of self-satisfying pc stuff is trotted out. This is not a nice truth so people go ballistic when it's said. Oddly, they want to be acknowledged as being as Irish as people who are culturally and linguistically carrying on the Irish tradition rather than the British one. Culturally, they aren't. Trying to claim them as such is simply dishonest. Again, this truth gets people's backs up, but there you have it.

Before anybody responds, identity and culture are not the same thing. You can have a strong Irish identity, but be culturally focused around British (i.e. English) and American culture.

Agricola · 18-07-2013 12:12PM

Just as everyone said as regards the way it was taught and the subject matter itself.

On top of that I had the same Irish teacher for 5 years in secondary school. She was an old vile creature, obviously riddled with depression amongst other ailments. She seemed to thrive on making the hour we had to endure her everyday a misery. I can remember not one instance where she cracked a smile in 5 years, the only exception being when the principal or another teacher knocked on the door and she had to pretend to be a normal human being for 2 minutes. She taught generations of people in that school before me and was there for a few more years after I left. Notorious and uniformly despised by all who had the misfortune to sit in her class.

In comparison, French was a subject that had more of a forward thinking curriculum with much of the subject taken up with topics and situations that were genuinely useful. My teacher for the LC was also a pleasure and her class was one of the ones you would never mind going to. I actually took a college course including French after that.

PhlegmyMoses · 18-07-2013 12:12PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Yes, they can.

When you present a child with a new activity, they ask two questions: is this fun? and is this something useful? If something fails to pass these tests, it will be dropped fairly quickly. They will also be brutally honest - if irish is presented in a boring or pointless manner, a 4-year old will get bored and see it as fairly pointless to them pretty quickly, because they'll also be brutally selfish.

My point was about relevance. You're talking about the way it is taught and presented to the child, which has nothing to do with my point. I don't believe that relevance is a factor in this until people get much older.

Many in this thread said they had always found it irrelevant and useless which put them off learning it. Those kinds of thoughts only creep in maybe 5 or 6 years, at the least, after they initially started learning the language, as there is no way that kids are worried about practicalities like using stuff in the real world.

If that were the case, kids would never bother to learn Maths and every other European language would fall flat on its face from the start. Relevance and real world application would have nothing to do with it until secondary school and at that point, they've been learning the language for years and should be far more proficient. They have a free run at kids willing to learn from 4-12 (8 years!) and the kids are going to secondary school struggling with the rudiments.

The lack of people who can speak Irish, or any other language, fluently is solely down to two things: Languages being poorly taught at a young age and the lack of an economic need for us to learn another language as we get older and get into the practicalities of it all.

Ace Attorney · 18-07-2013 12:16PM

I got by with a small bit of irish and by just copying large chunks of text from the story with the same common word what was asked in the question and never really understanding what was being asked, i wish i did learn it tho would be class to have learned it proplerly

Rented Mule · 18-07-2013 12:26PM

Des Bishop was able to learn a functional use of the Irish language in ten months in his 30s. That tells me that it is not being taught very well in the school system.

Dostoevsky · 18-07-2013 12:35PM

Rented Mule wrote: »

Des Bishop was able to learn a functional use of the Irish language in ten months in his 30s. That tells me that it is not being taught very well in the school system.

This is part of it, but in defence of teachers of Irish the opportunities for true immersion in the language during school time are not there. The goodwill is there from most kids at least in first year, but by 5th year it often has declined largely because the chance for immersion has not been present. They are not challenged enough.

For me the difference is Des Bishop had motivation. Adults who go back and are motivated to become fluent in Irish (or any other language) will become fluent in it.

kraggy · 18-07-2013 12:37PM

Anyone who got an honour in Gaeilge in the Leaving Cert is actually well able to speak it.

It's sadly just a negative societal view that stops people from continuing to use it after school.

I think they should increase the percentage of oral marks further. When I did the Leaving, it was 25%, now it's 40 I believe. Put it up to 70%. Languages are mostly spoken rather than read.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 12:37PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

My point was about relevance. You're talking about the way it is taught and presented to the child, which has nothing to do with my point. I don't believe that relevance is a factor in this until people get much older.

Many in this thread said they had always found it irrelevant and useless which put them off learning it. Those kinds of thoughts only creep in maybe 5 or 6 years, at the least, after they initially started learning the language, as there is no way that kids are worried about practicalities like using stuff in the real world.

I know what your point is, see below.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

they ask two questions: is this fun? and is this something useful?

If that were the case, kids would never bother to learn Maths and every other European language would fall flat on its face from the start. Relevance and real world application would have nothing to do with it until secondary school and at that point, they've been learning the language for years and should be far more proficient. They have a free run at kids willing to learn from 4-12 (8 years!) and the kids are going to secondary school struggling with the rudiments.

Because even 4 year olds can see a need for learning how to count. They can see a need for English in learning new words and how to ask for things.

There is also a reason for not teaching foreign languages to kids at the age of 4: it's not necssecary to them. And when I say foreign langauges, I include Irish in this, because to a 4 year old, a foreign language is a languge you don't speak, irrespective of it's origin.

allibastor · 18-07-2013 12:39PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

I can speak it quiet well actually. Its just it has no major advantage to be able to speak it anywhere else outside of Ireland. English speakign is becoming more of the common language in the world.

OldNotWIse · 18-07-2013 12:41PM

I guess its the way its taught. I studied French and Spanish for 5 years (by choice)and scored very highly in both at honours level. Irish? Meh, passed...after 14 years having it rammed down my throat.

godwin · 18-07-2013 12:42PM

It's useless , no need for it anymore.

josip · 18-07-2013 12:42PM

We must first try to track down nobody and then ask them why is it that they can speak Irish when most of the rest of us struggle.

Dostoevsky · 18-07-2013 12:49PM

kraggy wrote: »

Anyone who got an honour in Gaeilge in the Leaving Cert is actually well able to speak it.

I agree. I'd go further and say even people who failed Irish could speak it well if they were motivated enough to put the work in. Motivation is most of the battle.

kraggy wrote: »

It's sadly just a negative societal view that stops people from continuing to use it after school.

This may be so. However, I found that when I wanted to go back and improve my Irish there was/is a really, really supportive community here in Dublin. I could mention names but there were so many people who were patient with me, and kind to me, I was just inspired to improve and make that community part of my life. For me, it's truly liberating to come out from having a good conversation with people in Irish now. I can see the same happiness and pride in my own younger relatives when we have a chat in Irish and I gently correct them as we go along.

Stojkovic · 18-07-2013 12:52PM

I wanted to shag my French teacher.
I never wanted to shag any Irish teachers I had.

PhlegmyMoses · 18-07-2013 12:54PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know what your point is, see below.

Because even 4 year olds can see a need for learning how to count. They can see a need for English in learning new words and how to ask for things.

There is also a reason for not teaching foreign languages to kids at the age of 4: it's not necssecary to them. And when I say foreign langauges, I include Irish in this, because to a 4 year old, a foreign language is a languge you don't speak, irrespective of it's origin.

I just don't agree with this at all. Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in a fun and engaging way. The relevance is that their teacher is asking them to learn it. Some of the best results, overall in all subjects, in the country are coming out of Gaelscoils from kids who have learned the language from 4 years old onward with no issue. You are giving too much credit to the mentality of kids at that age. The right material, with the right teacher and a good learning atmosphere in a school will allow a child to engage with and enjoy anything that's put in front of them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 01:00PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I just don't agree with this at all. Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in a fun and engaging way. The relevance is that their teacher is asking them to learn it. Some of the best results, overall in all subjects, in the country are coming out of Gaelscoils from kids who have learned the language from 4 years old onward with no issue. You are giving too much credit to the mentality of kids at that age. The right material, with the right teacher and a good learning atmosphere in a school will allow a child to engage with and enjoy anything that's put in front of them.

It's not credit or otherwise, it's how they think. Your average 4 year old is very practical. Why do you think they ask "why?" so often?

And to them, fun is a very practical concern. It it's not fun, it's pointless and when most of the posters your disagreeing with started irish, it most certainly was not fun.

PhlegmyMoses · 18-07-2013 01:06PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

And to them, fun is a very practical concern. It it's not fun, it's pointless and when most of the posters your disagreeing with started irish, it most certainly was not fun.

All that tells us is that it has traditionally been taught poorly, not that children are some kind of discerning connoisseurs when it comes to what they learn. If you follow your argument to its logical conclusion, it boils down to this statement: "Languages aren't fun or practical, so kids don't want to learn them." Which is ridiculous, tbh. The statement should be: "Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in the correct way."

18-07-2013 01:13PM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Thirdly, as a nation, we suck at all languages..

I don't think that's true at all
There are people who don't see the relevance and decide "I can't" without even bothering to try a language
Some asked me for help with French when we were in LC, but they just sat there with no interest in even trying so I had to stop - it can't be magicked into your head

That said it's a lot more interesting doing adult classes with different ways of teaching e.g. games than learning off verb tables

kiffer wrote: »

Kids like learning irish at first... it starts off with some basic vocabulary and they enjoy that learning new names for objects and actions... but very soon two things hit and a double whammy effect totally knocks out any interest in learning it... one is social stigma, (it's a dead language, it's for boggers, it's too hard, getting out of doing irish is a win) the other is the fact it's so badly taught.

I know a lot of people that got to 5th year before they found out that nouns have genders in irish... yes they knew that some words took an "i" and somr did not but everyone just thought that was some random rule like alk the others.
Then in 5th year you get it wrong for the millionth time and an exasperated teacher says "agh blah is feminine it takes an 'i' how are you guys not getting this?" and class sits there going "there are masculine and feminie nouns in irish" ... I've heard the exact same story from people in pass and honours classes.
I remember asking when I was in primary how you knew which ones take an "i" and which don't and being told that you jusr have to memorize it by rote there is not logic to it. I think at the start they think English speaking kids can't handle the idea of words having genders and then when they obviously can while learning other languages the secondary level teachers assume a lot of stuff is common knowledge.

Forcing small kids to memorize those bloody conjugated prepositions takes all the fun out of it.

^ Yes to this. It's taught very poorly. I liked it in primary school thanks to the influence of a teacher who had a passion for it (a good way of passing on interest in any subject), but then in secondary sure they were either incompetent or didn't care. I liked it and I was alright at it, and they tried a bit to keep it up to date with newspaper articles and stuff.
The whole gender thing - I'm pretty sure nobody ever really told us that!
Bit more proper grammar teaching instead of reciting tables of personal preps please!
I don't think it should be compulsory either. Might give them a bit more encouragement to reform it instead of foisting rubbish syllabi on us and then wondering where it all went wrong

kowloon · 18-07-2013 01:19PM

Eogclouder wrote: »

3. The Dept of education hate Irish, it wouldn't be a thing if they had enough power to do so, they work against the language.

I'm not so sure about that one, wasn't there an article discussed in AH in one of the other Irish threads (there are many) that stated Irish was the most highly funded subject?

wolfpawnat wrote: »

What is wrong with a small bit of individualism in the form of a national language as well as one of the major world languages in so many people's eyes?

I think a lot of people would regard the coercion aspect of Irish as something at odds with individualism. Something mentioned Hiberno-English earlier, I'd argue that is more a part of our culture than Irish itself at this stage.

Citycap · 18-07-2013 01:20PM

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

No they can't.
Go to anywhere east of Poland and let me know how you get on speaking English. :rolleyes:

Kids in Poland can speak very good Polish by the time they are seven

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 01:21PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

All that tells us is that it has traditionally been taught poorly, not that children are some kind of discerning connoisseurs when it comes to what they learn. If you follow your argument to its logical conclusion, it boils down to this statement: "Languages aren't fun or practical, so kids don't want to learn them." Which is ridiculous, tbh. The statement should be: "Kids will learn anything if it is presented to them in the correct way."

Very true. But ask yourself: was it taught in the correct way when the people who disliked ti from the start started learning it?

"The correct way" is a mixtrue of fun and practicality. You can still get away without the fun part of it's practical. Kids do a lot of things they don't like doing because they still understand the practical element of it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 01:22PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

In fairness, most European kids don;t start learning English until the aget of about 10 or so. But again - it's a practical thing to learn for them.

[-0-] · 18-07-2013 01:25PM

It's forced on people and not used enough in every day life. Plain and simple. It should be used more.

I used to be fluent in it, but I've lost most of it now.

I'm going to learn it again, however. It's a beautiful language. Now that I'm living in the states, I'd love for my kids to be able to speak some of it as well.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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