Why can nobody speak Irish?

demanufactured · 18-07-2013 10:23AM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

It's a dead language.

WanabeOlympian · 18-07-2013 10:30AM

You really want to know why??? Ok, and this goes for all languages taught in school in ireland.

You know the way if you go abroad on holidays and they all speak english, from the bus driver to the café owner to the post man? They teach english through english and use a methodology that works for everyone, so, at school, everyone ends up picking up english.

You know how we teach languages here? Dia dhuit means hello.... everybody say that now... 'diaaa dhuit' etc.... ok everyone learn that list of words and verbs for homework.... and read that poem and write an essay on the economy even though you can't actually speak irish etc... That method is so out dated, it's been proven it's sh*te as far back as the 1960s. Ireland has kept using this method of bullsh*t and thus we are all rubbish at irish, french, german, spanish....and hardly anyone is fluent in a second language. I know it's a motivation thing too, people in other countries are motivated to learn english, but if they used the sh*te methods we used, they'd never be able to learn it.

wolfpawnat · 18-07-2013 10:35AM

demanufactured wrote: »

It's a dead language.

In the modern world, wouldn't that mean most languages are. Danish, Dutch, Welsh, etc. Small nations with their own languages would be accused of trying to keep dead languages alive.

What is wrong with a small bit of individualism in the form of a national language as well as one of the major world languages in so many people's eyes?

martinedwards · 18-07-2013 10:37AM

non English speakers have the motivation of wanting to wathc movies and TV, and listen to music in English.

the vast majority of movies and TV are made in English......

I saw the value of learning French as a kid because I might go to France where the locals are not as keen to speak English.

we've been to France many times, and while I'm far from fluent, I won't starve.

there is no-one who speaks Irish, that doesn't also speak English.

so putting the culture thing aside, its a useless language.

(and sod that Catholic lark, it was a Presbyterian, William Neilson who turned around the decline of the language after the Catholic National schools discouraged the teaching of it and O'Connell said it was Backward!!)

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 10:40AM

demanufactured wrote: »

It's a dead language.

nice excuse from people that are incapable of learning it.

For the people capable of understanding and speaking it, it is very much alive.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

WanabeOlympian · 18-07-2013 10:45AM

martinedwards wrote: »

non English speakers have the motivation of wanting to wathc movies and TV, and listen to music in English.

the vast majority of movies and TV are made in English......

I saw the value of learning French as a kid because I might go to France where the locals are not as keen to speak English.

we've been to France many times, and while I'm far from fluent, I won't starve.

there is no-one who speaks Irish, that doesn't also speak English.

so putting the culture thing aside, its a useless language.

(and sod that Catholic lark, it was a Presbyterian, William Neilson who turned around the decline of the language after the Catholic National schools discouraged the teaching of it and O'Connell said it was Backward!!)

If you go to sweden, they all speak english too...even better than most of us a lot of them. Is swedish therefore a useless language?

Yeah i get what you mean though, it's hard to see what use it has. I'm actually very very fluent in irish, as in, i can speak irish as well as my english. I don't think it has much use for a career unless you use it with media or government translation/interpreters in eu etc. etc. but i don't think any minority language does. So then you might ask yourself are all minority languages worthless and a waste of time? I can't say i can agree, although I'm biased as I actually speak irish fluently. I can understand the hate people have of it because of the sh*te they went through at school with it. Saying that, 99% of the time, when people hear me speaking it on the phone or when with friends who speak it, they always say, oh i wish i could speak irish, i'd love to be able to speak it.

_Kaiser_ · 18-07-2013 10:53AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

nice excuse from people that are incapable of learning it.

For the people capable of understanding and speaking it, it is very much alive.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Poor argument from the pro-Irish lobby as usual.

Not interested/don't see the relevance does not mean incapable.

meoklmrk91 · 18-07-2013 10:58AM

I loved Irish when I started school first, by the time I got to 5th class I despised it with a passion. The memorising, the way the words randomly changed for seemingly no reason, the fact that I understood none of it despite the fact that we spent 2 hours on it a day. The frigging mo conealoch (sp?) Chonaic mé, Chonaic tú, Chonaic Sé no Śí etc.

The fact of the matter is that I could hold a conversation with you far better in German than I can in Irish, despite the fact that I only did three years of German. It really must be down to the way it is taught. I would really love to be fluent in Irish.

rubadub · 18-07-2013 10:59AM

elefant wrote: »

If almost every film we saw, every song we heard, many of the TV shows we watched since we were children were in Irish with English subtitles I bet we'd all be speaking Irish as well as we speak English.

+1. I get a "refresher course" in Irish the odd time since TG4 do have decent documentaries with mixed Irish & English. Like documentaries on the mafia with english speaking mob guys and the Irish spoken by the narrator with english subtitles. If there were more of these I would get better at Irish.

If I was Dutch I have no doubt at all that I would have taken the time to learn English, it would be top of my list, absolutely no doubt. While for most English speaking people here the choice of a language to learn is difficult, the incentive is less.

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

If you go to sweden, they all speak english too...even better than most of us a lot of them. Is swedish therefore a useless language?

I expect there might be Swedish people & Dutch etc who might well wish that English was their main language and that they didn't have to bother with their own. Or alternatively they wish that people spoke dutch in the Ireland, australia, the US etc and that many people like Chinese spoke dutch as their main choice for a second language. If I was Spanish or Dutch I would be kind of jealous of the way we have it here.

Reindeer · 18-07-2013 11:01AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Relevance is one reason, how it's taught another and the attitude to the language(nice, but meh for most) another. The assumption that it's not a "foreign" language for the majority of Irish people is a big problem with the teaching of it.

Still, I am impressed with how fluent most folks are with Irish. However, as someone whom has had several years of language studies, I am also woefully unimpressed with how fluent folks are for how long they have studied. I've corrected a few Irish myself

Having said that, even Latin is a dead language, but folks still study it

I see nothing wrong with it being compulsory, but from what I understand, the instruction could be more interesting and involved. I think it's a gorgeous language. The more I learn of it, the more I understand the current colloquialisms, slang, and syntax. I think some folks do not realise how much their Irish studies, and the fact Irish is spoken in many places fluently, affect even their English speaking to this day. I think it's a good thing.

PhlegmyMoses · 18-07-2013 11:05AM

Anybody claiming that they knew the language was irrelevant from the moment they started learning it is talking pony. They believed in Santa and the Tooth Fairy without a second thought, but the Irish language was where they really focused their critical analysis.

OCorcrainn · 18-07-2013 11:05AM

The language is very much alive and kicking, the majority of Irish people speak it and will engage in conversation in it if initiated, but there are differing individual levels of proficiency.

The West Brit elements will naturally, fail to realise this though and admit it.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 11:15AM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Poor argument from the pro-Irish lobby as usual.

Not interested/don't see the relevance does not mean incapable.

not interested/don't see the relevance does not mean it is a dead language - dead to you maybe, but not dead to the people that can speak it.

SEPT 23 1989 · 18-07-2013 11:17AM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

The language is very much alive and kicking, the majority of Irish people speak it and will engage in conversation in it if initiated, but there are differing individual levels of proficiency.

The West Brit elements will naturally, fail to realise this though and admit it.

here we go:rolleyes:

gobnaitolunacy · 18-07-2013 11:20AM

demanufactured wrote: »

It's a dead language.

It's not dead, in most of the country it's on a life support machine.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 11:23AM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

It's not dead, in most of the county Dublin and its surrounds, it's on a life support machine.

FYP.

Herb Powell · 18-07-2013 11:24AM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

They most certainly can not.

This is a big myth I see repeated. You really haven't a clue of the standard of English outside anglophone countries until you start speaking their own native language with them. There might be more proficient English speakers in other countries than proficient speakers of foreign languages here, but really it's a reasonably small, educated section of the population. Try going outside the tourist-friendly areas of France or even Germany with only English, and you WILL have a tough time.

Captain Chaos · 18-07-2013 11:25AM

It's the way it's taught, simple as. I had Irish rammed into me from the ages of 5-17 and have little to show for it. I was then given the choice of learning French or German from the age of 13. I picked German and only kept it to the JC. In those 3 years I learned and remembered more German than 12 years of Irish. I can read, speak and write far more of it too to this day. It just a more logical language to boot. Irish is more makey uppy, slap dashy and changes depending on what part of the country someone is from ffs.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 11:26AM

Herb Powell wrote: »

They most certainly can not.

This is a big myth I see repeated. You really haven't a clue of the standard of English outside anglophone countries until you start speaking their own native language with them. There might be more proficient English speakers in other countries than proficient speakers of foreign languages here, but really it's a reasonably small, educated section of the population. Try going outside the tourist-friendly areas of France or even Germany with only English, and you WILL have a tough time.

recently i travelled to a part of Spain where there were no english speakers whatsoever, and that included the young people.

I think people are referring to the spanish that can speak English in the "tourist" type places in Spain, etc and they base their version of fact on that. A bit I suppose like people hitting temple bar in Dublin, not hearing any Irish and presume therefore it is a dead language.

gobnaitolunacy · 18-07-2013 11:29AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

FYP.

Ropy or non-existant Irish exists outside of the Pale, surprisingly enough.

They're not all Peig clones living with pigs and hens in the kitchen.

kc90 · 18-07-2013 11:30AM

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

No they can't.
Go to anywhere east of Poland and let me know how you get on speaking English. :rolleyes:

I believe that's still the majority, no?

4zn76tysfajdxp · 18-07-2013 11:31AM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

The West Brit elements will naturally, fail to realise this though and admit it.

This doesn't help your cause.

There's this weird myth that people who aren't interested in the Irish language are somehow less Irish than the brave Gaeilgeoirí, fighting off the poisonous influence of Béarlachas. It's such bollocks.

Crooked Jack · 18-07-2013 11:31AM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

It's definitely the way it's taught. I was so eager to learn Irish but there's practically none in primary schools (in the north) and then when you get to secondary school youre expected to have some sort of foundation in it already. So if you dont you start off way behind. It's also just badly taught.
I used to learn more irish in the three weeks of the local summer school, where it was fun, than I did during my entire secondary education.
Trying to learn it in the adult world then is next to impossible. I've taken a few course, classes twice a week and that, but between classes there are no opportunities to practice (except with a tape and book obviously, but that's hardly the way to learn a language.)
I think we should all speak Irish (bilingually of course.) Ireland would be a richer country for it but sadly the way it is taught is failing current generation, has put past generations completely off it and the government has little to no interest in it.

Reamer Fanny · 18-07-2013 11:31AM

Nil is agam

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 18-07-2013 11:32AM

First of all, whether the language is dead or alive is irrelevant - the question was why can nobody speak it. Or, to correct it, why can only a low percentage of people speak it.

Answer? Mainly practical reasons. for most people, language is a practical thing and a tool of communication. English works, therefore takes priority. And as I said in a different thread, coming from a native-English speaking country, the need for a second language lessens massively unless you plan on moving to a non-English native speaking country.

A few replies.

Eogclouder wrote: »

3. The Dept of education hate Irish, it wouldn't be a thing if they had enough power to do so, they work against the language.

I strongly disagree here. After all, the still teach it mandatorily to everyone under the age of 18. In any case it is not and should not be the Department of Education's ball - it's the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht.

Plazaman wrote: »

Here is the key. I went on a Irish Language "refresher" course recently just to see what it was like. 2 days a week for 3 weeks. Right not a major course but a lot of Irish words and phrases came back to me. But it was the way it was taught that impressed me with emphasis on conversational Irish with no fear of if you make mistakes or not. The idea is within a group of 5 or 6 ye talk among yourselves and what you don't know, someone else will. None of this beating tenses and the thistle ginijuck (using phonic for that one) into you.

Here's a good point: why is teaching Irish to adults in evening classes so differet to teaching kids in primar school? Here, it's done in a realxed enjoyable manner - something that seems to be beyone most educational planners in this country.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Anybody claiming that they knew the language was irrelevant from the moment they started learning it is talking pony. They believed in Santa and the Tooth Fairy without a second thought, but the Irish language was where they really focused their critical analysis.

Sorry, but complete rubbish. When you're a kid, Santa and the Tooth Fairy have infinitly more practical applications than Irish.

markomuscle · 18-07-2013 11:38AM

I only learned it between ages 12 and 17, my teachers put me off it for life, if i was going to learn it again I would try to learn old or middle irish

pandaboy · 18-07-2013 11:39AM

"Why can nobody speak English" (sic) going by the title.

The education of the Irish language is failing us in Ireland, especially urban areas. Compare the size of Gaeltacht areas to the size English speaking areas, the volume of both is astounding. A language can only survive if it's used in the everyday tongue.

When was the last time that Irish was the major language of a city, other than Gaeltacht areas? What happened in these cities that resulted in a loss of the native language? What factors determined the strength of English over Irish?

Currently, economics is the lingua franca. I don't see any fadas in bailout money.

fishy fishy · 18-07-2013 11:39AM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Ropy or non-existant Irish exists outside of the Pale, surprisingly enough.

They're not all Peig clones living with pigs and hens in the kitchen.

is that it?? :rolleyes:

Wibbs · 18-07-2013 11:41AM

OCorcrainn wrote: »

The language is very much alive and kicking, the majority of Irish people speak it and will engage in conversation in it if initiated,

Eh hardly. Oh wait, here's the get out clause...

but there are differing individual levels of proficiency.

It takes some level of delusion to believe that anything within an asses roar of the majority in Ireland speak the language with anything approaching ease. For a start if they did we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Comparing Irish to Swedish or Dutch is daft. A monolingual Swede could happily spend their lives in Sweden without a second thought, a monolingual Irish speaker, outside of a few tiny areas would be screwed. They're simply not comparable.

Also this notion that the rest of Europe is full of polyglots is most certainly untrue. The Scandinavians aside, go outside the tourist areas in France, Spain, Italy, Greece etc and you'll find very few with much of a command of English or any other language.

gobnaitolunacy · 18-07-2013 11:43AM

fishy fishy wrote: »

is that it?? :rolleyes:

Of course. You assume all rural Ireland is some sort of Gaelgoir idyll, you'll have to go to isolated arse ends of Galway or Kerry to find your Shangri La.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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