Does Ireland really have a richer culture and history than America?

Frank Lee Midere · 16-07-2013 04:16PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Not just the Anglo Saxon(a description nearly as dubious as Celt), there were also many Irish men and women who "won the West/killed Indians". The hammer of that ethnic cleansing policy the US 7th Cavalry was made up of a lot of Irish men. Even their marching song "Garryowen" is of Irish origin. Then we have the German origin folks and the Scandinavians. The former are the largest emigrant group in the US. Anglo Saxons/English people made up a tiny percentage of US demographics by the mid 1800's and are a vanishingly small group today.
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I said the dominant culture ( which is related to how people self identify).

They are not speaking Gaelic over there. And there was massive opposition to Irish and Catholic immigration from nativists who clearly wouldn't have opposed Irishness or Catholicism were there not significant differences.

If you believe that foot soldiers in an army are dominant then the Roman Empire was a colony of Germans.

Your second claim is ludicrous. The vast majority of the population growth in the US was endogenous to the white population which existed in 1800. Not immigration. The Anglo Saxon birth rate in the US was the highest in recorded history. The entire South white population is Anglo Saxon or Scots Irish - who might identify as Irish now but didn't for most of history, same is true of rural areas in New England. The rest of rural white America is also mostly Anglo Saxon with small pockets of German and Nordics( see next post). The South is entirely Protestant hence the Bible Belt nomenclature. Catholic immigration was largely to the cities of the East coast and Chicago and then -after the railways - to the West Coast cities. Only Butte has a significant Irish population outside this. Possibly Savanah though by no means the majority.

Frank Lee Midere · 16-07-2013 08:12PM

There are other ways of proving this but a mere 27% of the US describes itself as Catholic. This includes German Catholics, Italians, Irish, French[1] Poles (etc.) and most importantly - these days - Hispanics. That's one data point. Let's try work out their background with religion as a proxy for ethnicity. [2]

The Hispanic population is about 17% if the total and let's be generous and assume that the Catholic Hispanic population is 12%. That leaves a mere 15% White Catholic. ( You can already see the presumed Irish population is massively exaggerated ).

We're not finished. 15% of the population are atheist. Assuming a very very very generous ⅓ of that are of white Catholic descent[3] the white catholic population is 20% or the total or about ( but less than) 28% percentage of whites.

Most of the rest of the whites are Protestant. 51% of the total pop. So let's work out where they came from. l Christianity in total is 72% of the population which includes the already mentioned Hispanics but excludes atheists. Mostly self declared atheists are white. So I'll add the Anglo Saxon atheists - about 10%[3]of the total and take away black Protestants. (7%) giving 53% in total.

If Anglo Saxons were a trace population you wouldn't expect many Anglicans, Baptists or Methodists and expect Lutherans or Orthodox Christians.

In fact most are Protestant and of the British tradition. There are many Anglicans as Catholics but the vast majority, unlike Catholicism, are white ( in fact Anglo Saxon). 16% are evangelical - but that's Baptists, Quakers and Methodists and their offshoots. These originated in 18th and 18th century Britain. (Mormonism - founded by a Smith - is also in the English tradition).

Jews are about 2% of the US population. Orthodox Christianity is a trace religion < 0.3%.

I can't find the Lutheran percentage but I do know that it's not even the majority, merely the plurality, of German settled Dakota. Dakota has n + s, a pop of 1.5 million.

I think we can rule out Anglo Saxons being a vanishingly small part of white America.

[1] 10 million or so.
[2] in general people might convert between Protestant Anglo sects but there isn't much evidence of conversion to Lutheranism in the Deep South or to baptism in Dakota.
[3] this is assuming that born Catholics are more likely to self declare as atheists than people born Protestants. That's generous.

Note: will add links later.

bumper234 · 16-07-2013 08:14PM

OSI wrote: »

America's current native population is barely 250 years old. Ireland's is thousands. Take a guess.

^THIS

FFS there are potholes in rural Ireland older:rolleyes:

KyussBishop · 16-07-2013 09:20PM

Another way of looking at it:
The US has a population 60x the size of Ireland, and (conservatively) their culture develops between 30-60x faster than it does in Ireland - probably a hell of a lot more than that really.

Every year that passes, the US pumps out and exports far more 'culture' than Ireland ever will (and 'culture' is one of their primary exports). What was the last famous movie or TV show that came out of Ireland, for instance?

Frank Lee Midere · 16-07-2013 09:25PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

Another way of looking at it:
The US has a population 60x the size of Ireland, and (conservatively) their culture develops between 30-60x faster than it does in Ireland - probably a hell of a lot more than that really.

Every year that passes, the US pumps out and exports far more 'culture' than Ireland ever will (and 'culture' is one of their primary exports). What was the last famous movie or TV show that came out of Ireland, for instance?

The OP did say, and history. Your "conservative" guess of 30-60 times is largely taken from your posterior. Bigger than Ireland for sure. Not that much.

KyussBishop · 16-07-2013 09:47PM

60x greater population, means about 60x more happening at any given moment in time, meaning one year of their 'history' can count for a lot more (conservatively, 30-60x more) than in Ireland - in around 250 years, they have grown into a huge nation (the most powerful in the world - even if they wield that in pretty awful ways), whereas Ireland is struggling to return the population even to pre-famine times from 160+ years ago, and is seeing its latest round of emigration, brought about through massive incompetence/fraud/negligence in banking/finance/government.

We have a pretty crap (and not that varied) history really, tbh; a lot of it defined by 800+ years of British rule, and in modern history, an 'independent' government largely voluntarily subservient to the Catholic church.

Frank Lee Midere · 16-07-2013 09:55PM

KyussBishop wrote: »

60x greater population, means about 60x more happening at any given moment in time, meaning one year of their 'history' can count for a lot more (conservatively, 30-60x more) than in Ireland - in around 250 years, they have grown into a huge nation (the most powerful in the world - even if they wield that in pretty awful ways), whereas Ireland is struggling to return the population even to pre-famine times from 160+ years ago, and is seeing its latest round of emigration, brought about through massive incompetence/fraud/negligence in banking/finance/government.

We have a pretty crap (and not that varied) history really, tbh; a lot of it defined by 800+ years of British rule, and in modern history, an 'independent' government largely voluntarily subservient to the Catholic church.

So it's just population size? That's it. The US is about 4 times more historical and cultural than France and 5 times as rich as the UK?

And it is 120 times more cultural and richer in history than Rome.

Or are there other factors?

Wibbs · 16-07-2013 10:27PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The rest of rural white America is also mostly Anglo Saxon with small pockets of German and Nordics( see next post).

Small pockets? What is the largest diaspora in America today(and has been for quite some time)? German at near 50 millions. While Spanish is the second language of the US today, for a very long time it was German. They may not be speaking Gaelic over there, but for a long time they were speaking German. To the degree that propaganda posters in the Great War encouraged people to speak "American" rather than German. This is followed by the Irish at 40 millions, Hispanics around the same and the Asians are catching up(third most spoken language in the US is some form or Chinese).

But yes I do agree with you that the dominant culture is of an Anglo Saxon bent, with extra flavours on top.

If you believe that foot soldiers in an army are dominant then the Roman Empire was a colony of Germans.

Those foot soldiers(and officers too) were only too happy to buy into the local culture. That was the point I was making. Ich bin ein Romhanach anois.

Bigger than Ireland for sure. Not that much.

While I agree the figures quoted are entirely picked outa the air, the US cultural output is enormous in the 20th century and continuing today. In that time period they're outgunning Ireland(and pretty much everywhere else) by a significant margin. Historically? Well then there's some equalisation as we have 10,000 years on them. One example would be our role in a goodly chunk of reacculturation of the classical world back to Europe from whence it came after it had largely left. Plus many of us added and continue to add to their cultural output as emigres or sons and daughters of emigres. On comparative population size the Irish are a remarkably heavy hitter in world culture. The Jews another small group like that. Somewhere like France or Italy or Spain or the UK overshadows the historical cultural output of the US by a country mile. Actually Italy alone blows them outa the water. Like you said though there are many other factors cultural impact wise.

Frank Lee Midere · 16-07-2013 10:33PM

Wibbs. What's the Luthern population of the US? German and Nordic immigration was to the North. Dakota is not even majority German/Luthern

EDIT: 6 %.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_luth.html

EDIT 2: most common US surnames. Smith and Jones one and two. Murphy - the only obvious Irish only name - is 60 ish.

They are all English with some Hispanpic in the top 100 , and mostly English/Scottish in the rest. I can't see an obvious German.

http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm

KyussBishop · 17-07-2013 01:36AM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

So it's just population size? That's it. The US is about 4 times more historical and cultural than France and 5 times as rich as the UK?

And it is 120 times more cultural and richer in history than Rome.

Or are there other factors?

It's not just population size, but if their population is 60x the size of Ireland, then there's going to be a hell of a lot more going on there over time, that is historically noteworthy, than what goes on in Ireland over the same period.

old_aussie · 17-07-2013 01:39AM

What's the obsession with the Irish in comparing everything to the USA.

Seems like some sort of insecurity in Ireland.

Define richer.

Killer Wench · 17-07-2013 01:52AM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

So the native American cultures are somehow not up to scratch?

Find the assumption that America is somehow culture-less as it was a 'recent discovery' by white fellas to be insulting.

Totally agree.

snubbleste wrote: »

What is the 'native american' tribes like the Cherokee view on the issue?

There are over 500 tribal nations in existence. Several hundred still speak their tribal language, and many of them practice their traditional cultures. It's ridiculous that anyone would assert that the US lacks culture. We have many cultures!

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Do they celebrate their native American Indian culture much?

Yes, every November is designated American Indian Heritage Month. In 2004 or 2005, the National Museum of the American Indian was opened in Washington DC. I walked in the procession opening the museum. My urban community was one of the first exhibits of the museum.

Killer Wench · 17-07-2013 01:53AM

OSI wrote: »

America's current native population is barely 250 years old. Ireland's is thousands. Take a guess.

My tribal community has roots to villages dating back 4,000 years. I don't think there was such a thing as Irish back then.

Killer Wench · 17-07-2013 01:54AM

OSI wrote: »

CURRENT native population. The Indians have been displaced as the native population.

No. Here's a bit of information.

Native Americans - with a large N - is Indigenous Americans - this is an actual ethnic group recognized by the federal government

native Americans - with a small n - are those native born to America

WilyCoyote · 17-07-2013 02:08AM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Wibbs. What's the Luthern population of the US? German and Nordic immigration was to the North. Dakota is not even majority German/Luthern

EDIT: 6 %.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_luth.html

EDIT 2: most common US surnames. Smith and Jones one and two. Murphy - the only obvious Irish only name - is 60 ish.

They are all English with some Hispanpic in the top 100 , and mostly English/Scottish in the rest. I can't see an obvious German.

http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm

Hey Frank! If you have trouble counting the Lutherans, head for Lake Woebegone, Minnesota. They'll put you right

Mardy Bum · 17-07-2013 02:52AM

In terms of literature and drama Joyce and Beckett are better than anything America has produced.
Oscar Wilde is a figure who will be remembered for a long long time due to his life and literature.
The Abbey and the Gate are much more cultural rich theatres than any American one.
Yeats is better and more influential than American poet bar Eliot although I'm unsure whether to call T.S Eliot American.
America leads the way in televisual art thanks to HBO; The Wire & The Sopranos. It is also producing great young talented tv writers such as Lena Dunham.

The greatest cultural city is Paris by a long way. All the great writers of the 19th and 20th centuries met there and were highly influenced by French art.

Fiery biscuits · 17-07-2013 05:03AM

It's really impossible to answer which country has a richer culture as it is all totally subjective. Ireland has a longer period of time with a settled population so therefore Irish culture has more aspects to it. You can't measure culture in a quantifiable way.

clairefontaine · 17-07-2013 06:49AM

Than America? No.

Than the United States? No.

smurgen · 17-07-2013 08:23AM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

Thats most likely because those structures were built 2-4'000 years after Newgrange. A lot of people dont seem to understand just how shockingly old Newgrange is.

It's the oldest man made waterproof structure in the world, I think it's amazing I'm glad irs right here in Ireland.

Wibbs · 17-07-2013 09:48AM

Killer Wench wrote: »

My tribal community has roots to villages dating back 40,000 years.

40,000? If you can prove that you've just rewritten the prehistory of the Americas. The current official date for the population of the Americas isn't that much before Ireland got modern humans. Both appear to be populated after the last ice age buggered off. So America 14/13,000 years BP, Ireland 11/10,000 years BP*.

*though personally I reckon the Americas had humans well before these dates and Ireland most certainly did. Older pre modern humans were as far north as Scotland near a million years BP, so you can be sure others were in Ireland before the current lot showed up.

Reindeer · 17-07-2013 01:24PM

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Wibbs. What's the Luthern population of the US? German and Nordic immigration was to the North. Dakota is not even majority German/Luthern

EDIT: 6 %.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_luth.html

EDIT 2: most common US surnames. Smith and Jones one and two. Murphy - the only obvious Irish only name - is 60 ish.

They are all English with some Hispanpic in the top 100 , and mostly English/Scottish in the rest. I can't see an obvious German.

http://names.mongabay.com/most_common_surnames.htm

Before WWII, up to 30% of Americans claimed German descent. After WWII, it fell to 10%. I somehow doubt they all fled the country. I would assume some names may have changed as well... BTW, my Surname is Keller, nearly the 'Smith' or 'Jones' of Germany. The 'Millers' on that list could easily have Germans in them. Lets not forget that, depending on which Linguist you speak to, German makes up to 26% of the English language. It is easy to transcribe 'Braun' to 'Brown'. Many Americans also dropped their Irish and Scottish surnames as well. That list is certainly not the be all of proof of foreign descent. It's easy to transcribe 'Kelleher' to 'Keller'. It all depends on where int he States you lived. My family is from parts of the country that were heavily settled by Germans and Czechs. One of the more popular names I have seen in Texas is Cahill.

Killer Wench · 17-07-2013 04:19PM

Wibbs wrote: »

40,000? If you can prove that you've just rewritten the prehistory of the Americas. The current official date for the population of the Americas isn't that much before Ireland got modern humans. Both appear to be populated after the last ice age buggered off. So America 14/13,000 years BP, Ireland 11/10,000 years BP*.

*though personally I reckon the Americas had humans well before these dates and Ireland most certainly did. Older pre modern humans were as far north as Scotland near a million years BP, so you can be sure others were in Ireland before the current lot showed up.

**** me. That should have been 4,000. Too many zeroes. But, I will say that origin stories frequently contradict with scientists view of when this land was populated. The Land Bridge Theory is not widely accepted within Indian country.

GatesOfVienna · 17-07-2013 04:52PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

My tribal community has roots to villages dating back 4,000 years. I don't think there was such a thing as Irish back then.

I guess aliens must have built Newgrange then.

Heres a heads up. The Irish people have been in Ireland longer than the Natives have been in America.

Killer Wench · 17-07-2013 05:01PM

GatesOfVienna wrote: »

I guess aliens must have built Newgrange then.

Heres a heads up. The Irish people have been in Ireland longer than the Natives have been in America.

No, people have inhabited Ireland for a very long time. I don't believe that all of those tribes were 'Irish'.

The 'native' Irish people are the descendants of Iberians, Picts, Romans, Vikings, and other migration groups.

Mardy Bum · 17-07-2013 05:08PM

Killer Wench wrote: »

**** me. That should have been 4,000. Too many zeroes. But, I will say that origin stories frequently contradict with scientists view of when this land was populated. The Land Bridge Theory is not widely accepted within Indian country.

I was at a reserve beside the Grand Canyon and the Land Bridge was the reason one of the tribes (forget the name) reached America.

Nodin · 17-07-2013 05:11PM

...it has to be said this one of the more stupid threads in some time.

bodice ripper · 17-07-2013 05:14PM

GatesOfVienna wrote: »

Heres a heads up. The Irish people have been in Ireland longer than the Natives have been in America.

good for you. do you want a medal or a chest to pin it on?

clairefontaine · 17-07-2013 05:15PM

Nodin wrote: »

...it has to be said this one of the more stupid threads in some time.

I'd put it in the top ten of all time.

Nodin · 17-07-2013 05:16PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'd put it in the top ten of all time.

...it's certainly a contender.

gracehopper · 17-07-2013 05:20PM

gramar wrote: »

Ireland was first populated around 10000 years ago and has been through the stone age, bronze age, iron age, we've had St. Patrick, Vikings, The Normans the English occupation, The Famine, 1916 and a whole lot more. We have physical legacies in the shape of Dolmens, Newgrange etc that pre-date even Egyptian pyramids. We have had Kings and Queens, castles, towers, churches going back over a thousand years. Rich mythology and folklore.

Modern American history is very brief by comparison and I'd say compared to the native Indians we probably have more to offer.

So come on over to the gathering and stand atop a dolmen:)!

Does Ireland really have a richer culture and history than America?

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