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Does Ireland really have a richer culture and history than America?

24

Comments

  • #32
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,156 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    Can't compare like with like, Mayans, Aztecs and Incas put up structures that would make Newgrange look like a bundle of boulders fcuked together.

    Thats most likely because those structures were built 2-4'000 years after Newgrange. A lot of people dont seem to understand just how shockingly old Newgrange is.


  • #33
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    OSI wrote: »
    America's current native population is barely 250 years old. Ireland's is thousands. Take a guess.

    Where on Earth are you getting 250 years old out of? St. Augustine, Florida was founded by Spanish explorers in 1565 (448 years ago) and is considered to be the oldest European established settlement in the USA. So you're out by a good 200 years in your estimate.

    Also worth pointing out that America's native population are the Native Americans and not people of European descent.


  • #34
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    Can't compare like with like, Mayans, Aztecs and Incas put up structures that would make Newgrange look like a bundle of boulders fcuked together.


    They did, but several thousand years later.


  • #35
    Wacker The Attacker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,473 ✭✭✭Wacker The Attacker


    OSI wrote: »
    No, but they are no longer the dominant native population.

    All those german ex pats are.


  • #36
    keithclancy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    America as a continent has a lot of recorded and interesting history.

    The interchangeable "United States of America" has less as they all came from Europe/Africa/Asia anyway.


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  • #37
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    Rhys Essien wrote: »
    Do they celebrate their native American Indian culture much?

    they sure do

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDh0pZrVLA0


  • #38
    Paramite Pie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Paramite Pie


    OSI wrote: »
    America's current native population is barely 250 years old. Ireland's is thousands. Take a guess.


    Yeah, because the average Irish person is even aware of much of our history..:rolleyes:

    All in all, our druids and folklore are about as relevant to modern Ireland as Navajo or Iroquois rituals are to Wall Street Bankers, ie not at all. Sad but true.:(

    Culture isn't measured by who existed first.. our modern culture would be not recognisable to the ancient Irish. Most of you would be bashing Gaeilge in other threads and talking about how **** our country is. Part-time patriots eh?:P

    Ireland has much more history, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean we have more culture. Compare like with like, modern with modern. We're so over exposed to US culture that we don't even notice it half the time. And much of our culture is dead or dying, and modern Irish culture is redefining itself all the time, as are other cultures.


  • #39
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    OSI wrote: »
    CURRENT native population. The Indians have been displaced as the native population.
    Which is a ridiculously disingenuous exercise in semantics

    The Native Americans (clue in the name) have not been "displaced as the native population" because that doesn't make sense. 'Native' in the sense that you are using it (X is a native of Y) is applied to the individual. When discussing peoples then 'native' is uniformly understood to mean 'aborigine' or 'indigenous'. It's nonsense to ask whether, say, Irish-Americans are native to the Americas


  • #40
    19543261
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭19543261


    You have to be able to measure culture if you are going to compare its worth with another - and how do you do that? If you created some kind of parameters for doing such a thing, what's the use?

    I think this thread is more about making ourselves feel good.

    Nationalism and identifying with people who no longer live are curious things, imo, considering how powerful they can be.


  • #41
    Reindeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Reindeer


    America's culture is certainly rich and varied. Not only are there still Native Americans like Cherokees(of which I am one), you also have a rich history of all those Europeans that arrived to it's shores as well. These Europeans also shared their enlightenment as they spread and settled, and still do to this day. With 300 million people, millions of which not even born on American shores, it is difficult at best to paint the entire country, let alone the continent, with a wide brush. If you want any real discussion, you'll need to be more specific. Well, either that or move this to another forum. ;)

    BTW, this Cherokee is of the opinion that the current stock of Americans, barring those that are American Indian of descent, are most certainly not natives.


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  • #42
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    So who was living there when Columbus blundered into it?
    Fairies and pixies?

    Most of those people were murdered, the rest were rounded up and put into what were effectively massive concentration camps and left to die. The ones who survived have been again moved into areas in the middle of nowhere and in the middle of the last century had the federal government come in and destroy their livestock.

    The USA does not celebrate or even give a **** about Native American culture, the fact that they force it into tiny areas in the middle of ****ing nowhere kind of proves that.


  • #43
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    crockholm wrote: »
    Ireland has never had a world encompassing culture,the USA does.
    Well I would say it's more that Europe by proxy in the case of the US has the world encompassing culture. It was Europe that "won" the race to be the dominant world culture. Will it be displaced? Hard to say, I suspect not. For a long while yet anyway.
    Reindeer wrote: »
    BTW, this Cherokee is of the opinion that the current stock of Americans, barring those that are American Indian of descent, are most certainly not natives.
    Yea but how long does it take? :D I mean on current theories(which I have more than a few doubts about) the place was empty of humans 20,000 years ago. Plus given the deep similarities of (one of the first settlers) Clovis stone culture with northern European stone culture Europeans may have got there before or at a similar time that Asians made it across the Bering. Europeans may have been among the very first "Americans". Pigeons insert cat if that's ever proven beyond reasonable doubt.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #44
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    The Native Americans haven't gone away you know.

    The white man didn't liquidate them all.

    The Anglo Saxon man didn't. Nor here.

    Clearly given the title he meant the US - and modern US culture. I doubt you would regale us with your Cherkokee knowledge in any case.


  • #45
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    Can't compare like with like, Mayans, Aztecs and Incas put up structures that would make Newgrange look like a bundle of boulders fcuked together.

    In South America and much later. The Aztecs were 14th century AD. Which is 6 thousand years after new grange. The Mayans were closer starting at 2,000 BC. The incas were also effectively modern.


  • #46
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    The Anglo Saxon man didn't. Nor here.

    Clearly given the title he meant the US - and modern US culture. I doubt you would regale us with your Cherkokee knowledge in any case.

    There is a Cherokee posting on this thread, you can ask him anything you may want to know.

    North American, or if you want to nit pick about specifics, United States of America's culture does not begin and end with Big Macs, cowboys and Ford cars.


  • #47
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Well I would say it's more that Europe by proxy in the case of the US has the world encompassing culture. It was Europe that "won" the race to be the dominant world culture. Will it be displaced? Hard to say, I suspect not. For a long while yet anyway
    In which case the dominant culture in the world today is arguably Greek/Roman. Which seems slightly silly


  • #48
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    There is a Cherokee posting on this thread, you can ask him anything you may want to know.

    North American, or if you want to nit pick about specifics, United States of America's culture does not begin and end with Big Macs, cowboys and Ford cars.

    Clearly I know far more than someone who thinks the Incas or Aztecs were co-existent with Newgrange.


  • #49
    fishy fishy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭fishy fishy


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    Yeah, because the average Irish person is even aware of much of our history..:rolleyes:

    All in all, our druids and folklore are about as relevant to modern Ireland as Navajo or Iroquois rituals are to Wall Street Bankers, ie not at all. Sad but true.:(

    Culture isn't measured by who existed first.. our modern culture would be not recognisable to the ancient Irish. Most of you would be bashing Gaeilge in other threads and talking about how **** our country is. Part-time patriots eh?:P

    Ireland has much more history, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean we have more culture. Compare like with like, modern with modern. We're so over exposed to US culture that we don't even notice it half the time. And much of our culture is dead or dying, and modern Irish culture is redefining itself all the time, as are other cultures.


    what american culture are we overexposed to, that we don't even notice half the time - can you elaborate on this?


  • #50
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Clearly I know far more than someone who thinks the Incas or Aztecs were co-existent with Newgrange.

    Did I say they co-existed anywhere?

    Self praise is no praise.


  • #51
    April O Neill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭April O Neill


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    So the native American cultures are somehow not up to scratch?

    Find the assumption that America is somehow culture-less as it was a 'recent discovery' by white fellas to be insulting.

    Exactly. I bet there's plenty of Native American history. And we'll probably never know the half of it.


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  • #52
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    Reekwind wrote: »
    In which case the dominant culture in the world today is arguably Greek/Roman. Which seems slightly silly

    Well the alphabet you are writing in, the republican form of government, the classical buildings in Washington are influenced by Rome as is the language of most if the most recent immigrants to the US.

    However point taken. The dominant culture in the US is Anglo, not Roman. Classical European ideas were mediated through Anglo culture.

    What the dominant American culture is not is Finnish, or Albanian. So "white" is not useful.


  • #53
    everdead.ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,153 ✭✭✭everdead.ie


    Sure our cultures are so intertwined at this stage there is very little difference we have a longer history(as the NAtive American history doesn't seem to be documented too well) but I wouldn't say a richer culture for every Irish tradition there is an American one.


  • #54
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    Did I say they co-existed anywhere?

    Self praise is no praise.

    Why would you compare eras about 6000 years apart?

    You didn't know Jack


  • #55
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    As someone who does know stuff I think the trail of tears was clearly a form of ethnic cleansing. However it's pretty clear the OP meant the US until untutored leftists got their spoke in about fairly recent South American tribes.

    Assuming the US theme, Ireland has more history, however the US has more culture and cultures. The dominant culture is a bit weak, diluted as a globalism, but there are plenty of sub cultures.


  • #56
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    As someone who does know stuff I think the trail of tears was clearly a form of ethnic cleansing. However it's pretty clear the OP meant the US until untutored leftists got their spoke in about fairly recent South American tribes.

    Assuming the US theme, Ireland has more history, however the US has more culture and cultures. The dominant culture is a bit weak, diluted as a globalism, but there are plenty of sub cultures.

    Could you please make your points whilst turning down the cnutishness just a little?


  • #57
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    The Anglo Saxon man didn't.
    Not just the Anglo Saxon(a description nearly as dubious as Celt), there were also many Irish men and women who "won the West/killed Indians". The hammer of that ethnic cleansing policy the US 7th Cavalry was made up of a lot of Irish men. Even their marching song "Garryowen" is of Irish origin. Then we have the German origin folks and the Scandinavians. The former are the largest emigrant group in the US. Anglo Saxons/English people made up a tiny percentage of US demographics by the mid 1800's and are a vanishingly small group today.
    Reekwind wrote: »
    In which case the dominant culture in the world today is arguably Greek/Roman. Which seems slightly silly
    Well not quite, though I see what you mean R. Yes the Greek world hugely influenced what came later, but in many many ways it was a very alien culture to the post enlightenment culture that emerged in Europe. That culture was the "winner".

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #58
    conorhal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,096 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Paramite Pie wrote: »
    Yeah, because the average Irish person is even aware of much of our history..:rolleyes:

    All in all, our druids and folklore are about as relevant to modern Ireland as Navajo or Iroquois rituals are to Wall Street Bankers, ie not at all. Sad but true.:(

    Culture isn't measured by who existed first.. our modern culture would be not recognisable to the ancient Irish. Most of you would be bashing Gaeilge in other threads and talking about how **** our country is. Part-time patriots eh?:P

    Ireland has much more history, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean we have more culture. Compare like with like, modern with modern. We're so over exposed to US culture that we don't even notice it half the time. And much of our culture is dead or dying, and modern Irish culture is redefining itself all the time, as are other cultures.

    In fact you could argue that 'modern Irish culture' is just modern American culture with a funny accent.


  • #59
    Cee-Jay-Cee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,234 ✭✭✭✭Cee-Jay-Cee


    Speisekarte wrote: »
    Just trying to make Tuesday morning a bit more interesting.

    You failed but yer man who posted about riding yer wan in the jacks at lunchtime sort of succeeded.


  • #60
    Reindeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭Reindeer


    Wibbs wrote: »

    Yea but how long does it take? :D I mean on current theories(which I have more than a few doubts about) the place was empty of humans 20,000 years ago. Plus given the deep similarities of (one of the first settlers) Clovis stone culture with northern European stone culture Europeans may have got there before or at a similar time that Asians made it across the Bering. Europeans may have been among the very first "Americans". Pigeons insert cat if that's ever proven beyond reasonable doubt.

    Oh, Wibbs, lets not get all emotional now. You Europeans blew yer chance to be natives when you crawled out of Africa and snogged the Neanderthals ;)


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  • #61
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    I'm living in a state that has a lot of Indian reservations. Also, every city I have been to in the US has had at least one Heard museum based on Native American history and culture. I've worked with Native Americans but I wouldn't have known it if they hadn't told me. And I don't mean they were part Native American, they were fully native American, their parents still lived on reservations.

    It seems similar to in Australia how the Aboriginies are the minority and many have developed substance abuse and mental problems, likely due to the culture shock on their family over the last few generations. Only the Natives are given land. Mind you a lot of the land is baron sh!te that held little value. But some of it is good land in good locations that is worth millions. Still, it doesn't make up for what happened to them, it's a debt that can never be repayed.


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