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Am I going to hell?

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Comments

  • #272
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Terrlock wrote: »
    Actually you hit the nail on the head there. Our sin has indeed changed our reality.

    "Our sin" cannot change reality. We do not have the supernatural power to alter the nature of reality. If we could I would be living in a mansion in the Hollywood hills.

    What you mean is God changed reality as a punishment for disobedience.

    Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
    It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
    By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
    and to dust you will return

    God cursed reality because Adam and Eve sinned. He changed reality as punishment for their disobedience. "We" didn't do anything to change anything
    Terrlock wrote: »
    We live in a fallen world so of course there will be diseases and every kind of thing out to destroy us. You think that powerful viruses designed to kill cannot be created by man?

    They can be. But the original ones weren't. They were created by God. To punish humans for what Adam and Eve did.

    The idea that we brought suffering into the world is not only illogical since we do not have the power to do that, it is also unBiblical. It says in Genesis that God cursed the world because of what Adam and Eve did.

    THis makes modern Christians very uncomfortable for some reason so this modern apologetics idea that we some how did this, decided that this would be as things are, was introduced.
    Terrlock wrote: »
    We altered our reality when we choose Satan's will over God's.

    I'm not talking about altering "our reality" I'm talking about altering reality, the nature of existence. We cannot do that, we don't have the power. We are not omnipotent.


  • #273
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    My own faith being Christianity? Hmmm I'm beginning to doubt it is according to expert atheists here.
    Their more ways to choke a dog than shoving butter down his neck as my mother used to say, she liked cats ;) and theirs more than one way to be christian.
    Or we wouldn't have to have protestants, orthodox and even evangelicals ;)

    So it would seem - especially if you claim that God doesn't claim to have knowledge of our future choices as the Bible states, nor that it is his inspired word. Still, you won't get any argument from me if you want to dismiss it as so much hogwash! :-)


  • #274
    silentrust
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭silentrust


    The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised... (I Corinthians 15:52-53)



    I had to sing this once for my Father's church, he said it moved him to tears. (Didn't think I was that bad...!)

    A Christian once challenged me whether I could imagine living a world where Handel never wrote Messiah where there were no cathedrals and so on- of course we can all imagine this but I for one do not like to do so!

    After exhaustively examining the claims of religion though we are forced to conclude that God if he exists would indeed condemn an otherwise innocent person for not being a Christian - regardless of whether his new CofE tea sipping followers would do so or not...


  • #275
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,717 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    silentrust wrote: »
    The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised... (I Corinthians 15:52-53)



    I had to sing this once for my Father's church, he said it moved him to tears. (Didn't think I was that bad...!)

    A Christian once challenged me whether I could imagine living a world where Handel never wrote Messiah where there were no cathedrals and so on- of course we can all imagine this but I for one do not like to do so!

    After exhaustively examining the claims of religion though we are forced to conclude that God if he exists would indeed condemn an otherwise innocent person for not being a Christian - regardless of whether his new CofE tea sipping followers would do so or not...

    But isn't that just it. They would go out of business if they said otherwise.


  • #276
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    regardless of whether his new CofE tea sipping followers would do so or not...
    Hey I resemble that remark though I prefer gin...I might be higher on the candle than I thought. :D


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  • #277
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Terrlock wrote: »
    Still don't be getting the point.

    disease, death, misery and destruction is a result of our Sin.

    It is man who causes all this not God. Why do you keep insist on saying that God causes all this?

    Man is responsible for turning away from God, not the other way around.

    That's the very same argument as it's your fault you have 2 black eyes, if my dinner was ready i wouldn't have to hit you. In short it's insipid bullshít spouted by abusers the world over. If you have the choice to give a baby aids or make them healthy and happy and you choose the former because his granny didn't love you- then you are one sick puppy and frankly you have just proved that the granny made the right choice.
    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Did you read what I posted, I said He doesn't know until you do it, How could He without predestining the result?
    Two time frames, one, the one we are bound to whare things happen sequentaly and one, whare everything happens all together, the one God inhabits.

    That's not much of a super power. Knowledge man, with the power to know things have happened after they've happened. That's not an omnipotent super being, it's sky news!
    Terrlock wrote: »
    Actually you hit the nail on the head there. Our sin has indeed changed our reality. We live in a fallen world so of course there will be diseases and every kind of thing out to destroy us. You think that powerful viruses designed to kill cannot be created by man? There is even technology that can indeed create tsunami and earthquakes. We altered our reality when we choose Satan's will over God's. And until the great judgement we will remain in a fallen world.

    Nonsense. Yes in the very recent past people have developed the power to modify or maybe even create diseases, but it's a very recent development (and guess who gave us the mental powers to figure it out). Us choosing the will of Satan (who god apparently made indestructable and with a rebellious streak for some reason, major case of bad planning there) is not our fault in any case. We were created with an inbuilt weakness, and then that weakness was used to condem us - we didn't do anything!
    Remember who it was who put the weakness into us in the first place, allowing the temptor he also created, to tempt us as he always knew he would. Can you really not see the common denominator here? It's like pushing someone over a cliff and trying to blame gravity for killing them.

    Lets write this out clearly. Have a think about these questions.

    Who created the very concept of temptation? - God or Man?
    Who made us susceptible to this temptation - God or Man?
    Who designed and built something (satan) to tempt us - God or Man?
    Who demands worship, subservience and the stoic resistance of temptation - God or Man?
    Who knew in advance that we wouldn't pass these tests - God or Man?
    Who then decided we needed to be punished for this - God or Man?
    Who does the punishing - God or Man?
    Who could simply start from scratch with improved people and no devil to cause chaos, thus rendering all this punishment obsolete - God or Man?
    Who could end disease, famine, sadness etc tomorrow - God or Man?
    Who is the victim in this story - God or Man?
    Who is the tyrant - God or Man?

    Also there is no technology that can cause tsunamis or earthquakes ( i assume you mean HAARP?) - they're purely acts of god! Maybe a big enough nuclear bomb on a fault line or under sea, but that hasn't happened yet. It's been all the big guy - loving us long time in his funny little way.


  • #278
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Lets write this out clearly. Have a think about these questions.

    Who created the very concept of temptation? - God or Man?
    God. it's the price of freewill.
    Who made us susceptible to this temptation - God or Man?
    God, as above
    Who designed and built something (satan) to tempt us - God or Man?
    No one. Satan chose that path himself.
    Who demands worship and subservience - God or Man?
    Man. You have to ask?
    Who knew in advance that we wouldn't pass these tests - God or Man?
    No one. I'v explained this already.
    Who then decided we needed to be punished for this - God or Man?
    Man. God decided we should be forgiven.
    Who does the punishing - God or Man?
    Man.
    Who could simply start from scratch with improved people and no devil to cause chaos, thus rendering all this punishment obsolete - God or Man?
    God, if He wanted!
    Who could end disease, famine, sadness etc tomorrow - God or Man?
    God, so could man, if he wanted.
    Who is the victim in this story - God or Man?
    God.
    Who is the tyrant - God or Man?
    Man. Always demanding his terms.

    The vision of a perfect God you have would have created a universe without hope or change or love. It would be sterile and dead.


  • #279
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    The vision of a perfect God you have would have created a universe without hope or change or love. It would be sterile and dead.

    That is utter nonsense. I'm having an eternal debate in my own head as to whether it is worth bothering trying to explain yet again why that is utter nonsense. :P


  • #280
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    Mod note: We have one thread on this forum for atheists to expound on all that they find offensive about the Christian notion of God. We don't need a second, so I'm closing this thread.

    To those posters Christian or non-Christian who were interested in actually having a discussion about the topic at hand rather than soapboxing, my apologies that you were drowned out by hot air.


This discussion has been closed.
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