Am I going to hell?

sbsquarepants · 10-07-2013 10:44AM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I meant to include eternal conscious torment there as well. To some, eternal separation from God would amount to the same thing.

Sounds like a bonus if you ask me. I mean this all loving, all knowing god, maker of all things quite happily churned out dozens of hitlers, pol pots, stalins, not 1 but 2 george bushes just for good measure down through the years, not to mention countless dahmers, gacys, fred wests and larry murphy's. Throw in then all the floods, tornados, tsunamis, earth quakes, diseases, famines and what not and i reckon you're better off as far away from that sociopathic headcase as physically possible.

Benny_Cake · 10-07-2013 10:48AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Sounds like a bonus if you ask me. I mean this all lovinf, all knowing god, maker of all things quite happily churned out dozens of hitlers, pol pots, stalins, not 1 but 2 george bushes just for good measure down through the years, not to mention countless dahmers, gacys, fred wests and larry murphy's. Throw in then all the floods, tornados, tsunamis, earth quakes, diseases, famines and what not and i reckon you're better off as far away from that sociopathic headcase as physically possible.

I was clarifying the range of beliefs that Christians hold, personally, I'm something of a hopeful universalist, not that I give the subject a lot of thought.

Mod note: If you want to rant about God, this thread isn't the place to do it.

sbsquarepants · 10-07-2013 12:34PM

Not really a rant, more a statement of fact. The thread is called am i going to hell, i'm just pointing out that given the big mans track record, people should really be worried about going to heaven. When you actually stop to think about it, it doesn't sound all that appealing (was it Hitchens who called it a celestial north korea? Sounds about right to me)

Terrlock · 10-07-2013 03:04PM

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

The answer to this question is quite simple, are you born again? You can be as moral as you like. But do you follow Christ?

John 3:3 - Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again"

So question for yourself, do you know what it means to be born again? Or are you even willing to find out?

Also to answer the Hitler and all that is evil that God allows I will make this bold statement - God is absolutely justified in all that he does.

Terrlock · 10-07-2013 03:09PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Sounds like a bonus if you ask me. I mean this all loving, all knowing god, maker of all things quite happily churned out dozens of hitlers, pol pots, stalins, not 1 but 2 george bushes just for good measure down through the years, not to mention countless dahmers, gacys, fred wests and larry murphy's. Throw in then all the floods, tornados, tsunamis, earth quakes, diseases, famines and what not and i reckon you're better off as far away from that sociopathic headcase as physically possible.

God churned them out ? Or is he just giving us what we wanted? A world without him.

Satan is in control of this world because we chose to follow Satan over God. It is that reason why there is the Hitlers of the world.

We chose that, not God.

Let me ask a question, if I could prove without a shadow of a doubt that God is real and that all he does is completely just. That he created everything and all that is in it. That he loves you more then anything and wants what is best for you. Would you bend the knee and follow him?

Gumbi · 10-07-2013 03:14PM

Terrlock wrote: »

God churned them out ? Or is he just giving us what we wanted? A world without him.

Satan is in control of this world because we chose to follow Satan over God. It is that reason why there is the Hitlers of the world.

We chose that, not God.

Let me ask a question, if I could prove without a shadow of a doubt that God is real and that all he does is completely just. That he created everything and all that is in it. That he loves you more then anything and wants what is best for you. Would you bend the knee and follow him?

If you were to demonstrate all those things of anybody, I don't think I would "bend my knee to them" and worship them. I would maybe have great respect and reciprocal love for that someone. But worship is something with which I just cannot reconcile.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 03:17PM

Terrlock wrote: »

God churned them out ? Or is he just giving us what we wanted? A world without him.

If it is "what we want" how is it punishment? If it is not punishment why is it called punishment in the Bible?

Terrlock wrote: »

Satan is in control of this world because we chose to follow Satan over God. It is that reason why there is the Hitlers of the world.

We chose that, not God.

Who created Satan?

Terrlock wrote: »

Let me ask a question, if I could prove without a shadow of a doubt that God is real and that all he does is completely just. That he created everything and all that is in it. That he loves you more then anything and wants what is best for you. Would you bend the knee and follow him?

A God who loved us wouldn't want us to bend the knee and worship him. So your question is a paradox.

sbsquarepants · 10-07-2013 03:32PM

Terrlock wrote: »

Also to answer the Hitler and all that is evil that God allows I will make this bold statement - God is absolutely justified in all that he does.

So what about some poor kid that falls victim to some paedo murderer. Was god right to
A. Make that paedo in the first place. He knew what he'd do.
B. Select that particular kid to be his victim. He knew what fate held in store.
C. Stand by watching while the vile deed takes place. He sees all.
D. Do absolutely nothing to help.

I have to say i would personally do none of those things and i would argue that anyone who would is purely evil.

Geomy · 10-07-2013 03:48PM

A God who loved us wouldn't want us to bend the knee and worship him. So your question is a paradox.[/quote]

Zombrex can you explain your interpretation of love.

Some people have a strange way of showing love.

Some parents who say that they love their kids let them away with all sorts of shenanigans like letting their kid's cause havoc in the neighbourhood.

Other parents are not overly strict but put down appropriate boundaries.

I don't want an example of love according to religion and the hazards of Godly love.

And I don't accept a Wikipedia translation of love.

What is love according to Zombrex. ...

Terrlock · 10-07-2013 03:51PM

If it is "what we want" how is it punishment? If it is not punishment why is it called punishment in the Bible?

The wages of sin is Death. What is the biblical text your referring to that's calling it punishment.

Who created Satan?

God did.

A God who loved us wouldn't want us to bend the knee and worship him. So your question is a paradox.

How do you know what God wants? Have you spoken to him?

We are like sheep, blind to the real dangers. Satan is a wolf out to destroy us. Christ is the Shepard. If a sheep follows it's own way how long will it be before the wolf kills the sheep?

If a sheep ignores the Shepard calls and follows the wolf it will be an even quicker death.

The only way the sheep will live if it follows the Shepard.

God send Jesus as the Shepard to show us the way, but we are not being forced, it is a choice. This is a problem with most of us as we prefer being forced.

Compared to Jesus we have the knowledge and awareness of a sheep. Yet we try and reason with things we cannot comprehend and give ourselves excuses why we should not follow him.

God commands us to follow him and give him Glory. In return he shall glorify us.

If the creator asks me to bend my knee I will do it willingly. He is the creator of everything after all and who else could know what is best for me?

Terrlock · 10-07-2013 03:59PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

So what about some poor kid that falls victim to some paedo murderer. Was god right to
A. Make that paedo in the first place. He knew what he'd do.
B. Select that particular kid to be his victim. He knew what fate held in store.
C. Stand by watching while the vile deed takes place. He sees all.
D. Do absolutely nothing to help.

I have to say i would personally do none of those things and i would argue that anyone who would is purely evil.

But why is this God's doing? This world is run by Satan not God. This is why there are paedo murderers and all sorts of detestable people out there.

This is why there is so much evil going on. It's run by Satan not God.

1 John 5:19

We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Man gave control over to Satan when we submitted to Satan's will over God's.

So why does God endure all this evil would be the better question to be asking.

The Lords justice will come.

Revelation 21:4

He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

tommy2bad · 10-07-2013 04:05PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Isn't that just an example of the wishy washy nice sounding nonsense we are talking about, used to brush over the horrific details of the Old Testament?

Do you believe that God instructed, through Moses, the early Israelites to execute woman who were not virgins on their wedding night.

What greater understanding of that entirely horrific order do you gain by "living" God's message?

Stop asking questions I have already answered. I know this thread is getting hard to keep up with though so your forgiven.
No, I believe that Moses instructed the Israelite to do what he thought God wanted. OK have we established that! I don't read the bible as God said, some do, I don't.
Actually I'm probably slandering Moses their, I doubt all of the books of Mosses were written by him, in fact I'm certain of it, I think they aren't even put in chronological order and probably were written long after Mosses was dead and gone.
What do I gain from this inclusion in the bible? Way off topic but worth a response once I get my thoughts together.

eisen1968 · 10-07-2013 04:05PM

Unconditional love innit,even Hitler ,Pol Pot, and Vlad the impailer are all sitting on clouds as we speak.

sbsquarepants · 10-07-2013 04:06PM

Terrlock wrote: »

God churned them out ? Or is he just giving us what we wanted? A world without him.

Satan is in control of this world because we chose to follow Satan over God. It is that reason why there is the Hitlers of the world.

We chose that, not God.

Let me ask a question, if I could prove without a shadow of a doubt that God is real and that all he does is completely just. That he created everything and all that is in it. That he loves you more then anything and wants what is best for you. Would you bend the knee and follow him?

Anyone who demands unwaivering devotion, despite conspiring in all manner of disease, death, misery and destruction coming your way could hardly be said to have your best interest at heart now could they.
I just can't fathom how anyone would think they did.
It's like a woman stuck in an abusive relationship being beaten and raped and terrorised, but somehow managing to convince herself "he loves me really"
Anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't see it that way. Would you advise your daughter to stay with a man like that? I know what i'd be tellling her!

tommy2bad · 10-07-2013 04:10PM

sbsquarepants;
Do you not see the contradiction there - he knows what you're going to do before hand, but he then tests you and punishes you for failing the test he knew you'd fail all along. That's called entrapment. And seems to be quite a waste of a supreme beings time.

Did you read what I posted, I said He doesn't know until you do it, How could He without predestining the result?
Two time frames, one, the one we are bound to whare things happen sequentaly and one, whare everything happens all together, the one God inhabits.

Terrlock · 10-07-2013 04:11PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Anyone who demands unwaivering devotion, despite conspiring in all manner of disease, death, misery and destruction coming your way could hardly be said to have your best interest at heart now could they.
I just can't fathom how anyone would think they did.
It's like a woman stuck in an abusive relationship being beaten and raped and terrorised, but somehow managing to convince herself "he loves me really"
Anyone with an ounce of sense wouldn't see it that way. Would you advise your daughter to stay with a man like that? I know what i'd be tellling her!

Still don't be getting the point.

disease, death, misery and destruction is a result of our Sin.

It is man who causes all this not God. Why do you keep insist on saying that God causes all this?

Man is responsible for turning away from God, not the other way around.

tommy2bad · 10-07-2013 04:15PM

silentrust wrote: »

Well said Zombrex - once again are we to interpret this allegorically to mean that women who are unmarried yet not virgins are immoral? (I note there's no such injunction upon men to stay chaste until they tie the knot! :-D )

In any case, I would like to recommend a website of which I am very fond : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, the print edition of which sits proudly in my bookshelf - it exposes the Bible for what it is, a long history of cruelty and violence, which in fairness pretty much sums things up to date.

In any case there's an extensive section on every injustice advocated throughout the "good" book - which is why I am forced to conclude that if you take the Bible as God's inspired word, then you have to be a rather morally dubious human being.

Of course tommy2bad has claimed that he doesn't do so - and hats off to you for it, I welcome you to the fold but you must admit that isn't the claim of mainstream religion, nor I imagine the senior figures in your own faith, so I am interested how you reconcile the two? So far, you've told me you don't see a contradiction, but isn't it rather clear?

My own faith being Christianity? Hmmm I'm beginning to doubt it is according to expert atheists here.
Their more ways to choke a dog than shoving butter down his neck as my mother used to say, she liked cats

and theirs more than one way to be christian.
Or we wouldn't have to have protestants, orthodox and even evangelicals

tommy2bad · 10-07-2013 04:15PM

silentrust wrote: »

See also :

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/9.html#11

Apparently God does know before we're even born whether we're going to grow up to be moral people or not and by extension if we're going to Heaven or Hell. Hence the question á la Ricky Gervais. "If there is a God, why did he make me an Atheist?"

To test the rest of us

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 04:49PM

Terrlock wrote: »

Still don't be getting the point.

disease, death, misery and destruction is a result of our Sin.

That is a meaningless statement. "Our sin" cannot do anything to alter reality. It cannot create the H1Z1 virus. It cannot produce a famine in Africa. It cannot cause lightening to crash an aeroplane.

I have never sinned and then woken up to find I had brought a tsunami into existence. :rolleyes:

If God created the universe, everything in the universe, and the rules that govern the universe, then disease death misery and destruction are a result of God. There is no one else they can be the result of, no one else has the power to create these things.

Your religion seems to spend an awful lot of time ignoring that point while telling the rest of us how much God loves us. So again why exactly would anyone bow down to him?

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 04:52PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

My own faith being Christianity? Hmmm I'm beginning to doubt it is according to expert atheists here.
Their more ways to choke a dog than shoving butter down his neck as my mother used to say, she liked cats and theirs more than one way to be christian.
Or we wouldn't have to have protestants, orthodox and even evangelicals

Again this is just more demonstration of the original point.

You should be deeply troubled by all this stuff. You clearly aren't. You flippantly dismiss the horrific immorality in the Old Testament with the odd joke and the idea of let everyone just believe what they want to believe, with vague statements that not everyone takes these passages "literally"

I appreciate you are a middle England fluffy lets all have a nice cup of tea Christian (as Richard Dawkins would call you) Tommy, but that isn't really an excuse. There is a limit to how far ah-sure-whats-the-harm will get you.

Benny_Cake · 10-07-2013 04:53PM

Mod note: If this is going to turn into a rehash of the Atheism megathread then I don't see the point in leaving this open. Back on topic please.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 05:03PM

Geomy wrote: »

Zombrex can you explain your interpretation of love.

Some people have a strange way of showing love.

Some parents who say that they love their kids let them away with all sorts of shenanigans like letting their kid's cause havoc in the neighbourhood.

Other parents are not overly strict but put down appropriate boundaries.

I don't want an example of love according to religion and the hazards of Godly love.

And I don't accept a Wikipedia translation of love.

What is love according to Zombrex. ...

Love is an strong emotional affinity and fondness for a person where you hold an intense sense of empathy for that person and their well being.

The idea that a person who loves another person would require worship from them is, as I said, paradoxical.

Don't get me wrong, people often confuse love for other things. Obsession for example. The world is full of people who believe their partner who beats them or is insanely jealous is in love with them because they confuse this intense desire to control the person with loving the person.

And often it is easier to pretend that this stems from love. After all we all want to feel loved by another person, and this desire can be so powerful that we put up with a lot of nonsense in order to delude ourselves that we are being loved.

You can generally tell if someone is not actually in love if that love is conditional on them being loved back. Hence my statement about the Christian notion of God loving us not actually being love.

MrVestek · 10-07-2013 05:03PM

welkin wrote: »

I'm a non-believer but I live a moral life.

Supposing I'm completely wrong and I meet God when I die.
Can he send me to an eternity of miserable suffering because I never prayed to him?

No.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 05:23PM

Terrlock wrote: »

The wages of sin is Death. What is the biblical text your referring to that's calling it punishment.

2 Thessalonians 1
All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

It takes a particular interesting interpretation to read that passage as God giving sinners what they desire. It seems to be basically Paul telling other Christians that God will punish all those who made these Christians suffer.

Terrlock wrote: »

God did.

So then God is responsible for Satan.

Terrlock wrote: »

How do you know what God wants? Have you spoken to him?

You don't see that statement as being slightly ironic, no?

Terrlock wrote: »

We are like sheep, blind to the real dangers. Satan is a wolf out to destroy us. Christ is the Shepard. If a sheep follows it's own way how long will it be before the wolf kills the sheep?

It depends on if the Shepard made the wolf and then put the wolf in among the sheep.

What does this have to do with God wanting us to worship him?

Terrlock wrote: »

The only way the sheep will live if it follows the Shepard.

Or you know if the Shepard hadn't made the wolf in the first place ...

You seem to be equating worship with following. I follow the rules of the road. I don't worship them. I follow the instructions from Jamie Oliver about how to cook my pot roast. I don't worship them.

Why would God require us to worship him if he simply wishes that we follow his instructions on how to avoid the wolf (which he created and put among us)

Terrlock wrote: »

If the creator asks me to bend my knee I will do it willingly. He is the creator of everything after all and who else could know what is best for me?

What does knowing what is best for you have to do with bending your knee to someone. Your doctor probably knows that smoking is not good for you and taking regular excercise is. Do you bend your knee to him as well?

tayto lover · 10-07-2013 05:24PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It's been stated a couple of times on this thread that the three prevalent beliefs regarding hell/punishment among Christians are eternal separation from God, annilationism or universal salvation. There is plenty of information about all three out there if anyone is interested.

So does a stupid person get less punishment than a clever person?
Does a person not brought up in a religious faith suffer less than a lapsed Catholic?
Would you be better off being born an atheist than being born a Catholic and then sinning?

Benny_Cake · 10-07-2013 05:30PM

tayto lover wrote: »

So does a stupid person get less punishment than a clever person?
Does a person not brought up in a religious faith suffer less than a lapsed Catholic?
Would you be better off being born an atheist than being born a Catholic and then sinning?

I outlined 3 different views Christians have about hell (as I said, I'm a hopeful universalist when I think about it at all, which isn't too often) . No more, no less. To answer all your questions: I don't know, and it isn't for me to judge.

Terrlock · 10-07-2013 06:00PM

2 Thessalonians 1
All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

It takes a particular interesting interpretation to read that passage as God giving sinners what they desire. It seems to be basically Paul telling other Christians that God will punish all those who made these Christians suffer.

God is enacting his justice over all sinners. Indeed the wages of sin is death. And Judgement will come to all of live in sin and will not repent and follow Christ.

So then God is responsible for Satan.

God Created Satan yes but that does not make him responsible for Satan's choice to disobey God anymore then God is responsible for the choices that you make no to open your eyes and ears to him.

How do you know what God wants? Have you spoken to him?
You don't see that statement as being slightly ironic, no?

Actually no it's not being ironic at all. The door is open for everyone to develop a personal relationship with Christ and to know and follow him is to know and follow God's will.

Or you know if the Shepard hadn't made the wolf in the first place ...

You seem to be equating worship with following. I follow the rules of the road. I don't worship them. I follow the instructions from Jamie Oliver about how to cook my pot roast. I don't worship them.

Why would God require us to worship him if he simply wishes that we follow his instructions on how to avoid the wolf (which he created and put among us)

This is an analogy, however again God is not responsible for Satan's choice to disobey him. He is still the deceiver out to deceive you into destroying yourself so you don't get to share in God's Glory and true Life.

What does knowing what is best for you have to do with bending your knee to someone. Your doctor probably knows that smoking is not good for you and taking regular exercise is. Do you bend your knee to him as well?

Bending a knee is showing my submission to the will of God. Christ is king and I will gladly submit to his will.

Terrlock · 10-07-2013 06:06PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrlock View Post
Still don't be getting the point.

disease, death, misery and destruction is a result of our Sin.
That is a meaningless statement. "Our sin" cannot do anything to alter reality. It cannot create the H1Z1 virus. It cannot produce a famine in Africa. It cannot cause lightening to crash an aeroplane.

I have never sinned and then woken up to find I had brought a tsunami into existence.

If God created the universe, everything in the universe, and the rules that govern the universe, then disease death misery and destruction are a result of God. There is no one else they can be the result of, no one else has the power to create these things.

Your religion seems to spend an awful lot of time ignoring that point while telling the rest of us how much God loves us. So again why exactly would anyone bow down to him?

Actually you hit the nail on the head there. Our sin has indeed changed our reality. We live in a fallen world so of course there will be diseases and every kind of thing out to destroy us. You think that powerful viruses designed to kill cannot be created by man? There is even technology that can indeed create tsunami and earthquakes. We altered our reality when we choose Satan's will over God's. And until the great judgement we will remain in a fallen world.

Geomy · 10-07-2013 06:08PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Love is an strong emotional affinity and fondness for a person where you hold an intense sense of empathy for that person and their well being.

The idea that a person who loves another person would require worship from them is, as I said, paradoxical.

Don't get me wrong, people often confuse love for other things. Obsession for example. The world is full of people who believe their partner who beats them or is insanely jealous is in love with them because they confuse this intense desire to control the person with loving the person.

And often it is easier to pretend that this stems from love. After all we all want to feel loved by another person, and this desire can be so powerful that we put up with a lot of nonsense in order to delude ourselves that we are being loved.

You can generally tell if someone is not actually in love if that love is conditional on them being loved back. Hence my statement about the Christian notion of God loving us not actually being love.

I like your definition of love.

Thanks

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 06:36PM

Terrlock wrote: »

God is enacting his justice over all sinners. Indeed the wages of sin is death. And Judgement will come to all of live in sin and will not repent and follow Christ.

Ok ... so again if it is what we want how is it punishment?

You don't say to someone "Now you better get your home work done or you will be sorry, we will buy you that PS3 you wanted!"

Terrlock wrote: »

God Created Satan yes but that does not make him responsible for Satan's choice to disobey God anymore then God is responsible for the choices that you make no to open your eyes and ears to him.

If God knew Satan would disobey him and God created him anyway that makes God entirely responsible for Satan and anything Satan does.

You don't release a wild animal into a park full of children and then put your hands up saying "Not my fault, the tiger did the mauling!"

Terrlock wrote: »

He is still the deceiver out to deceive you into destroying yourself so you don't get to share in God's Glory and true Life.

Very bad idea for God to create him then, wasn't it.

Terrlock wrote: »

Bending a knee is showing my submission to the will of God. Christ is king and I will gladly submit to his will.

Again why would a loving God require you to show submission to his will?

Do you bend your knee to your doctor? Or do you just take his medicine?

Am I going to hell?

Comments