Am I going to hell?

michael.dublin · 09-07-2013 09:02AM

Heaven or hell…. Don’t think that there is either.
religion was made, for the human kind, to have something to hold on to, if we go all the way back, to the first homo-sapiens, they did not have the same understand, of how things work as we have today, so then a earthquake, thunder, lighting or death happened, it had to be some kind of bigger force doing it. Now today we know how this works.
So the idea that there is a GOD, and we go to heaven or hell, then we die, I just don’t buy it. And I do think that in a few hundreds years, religion as we know it, is not going to be around.
Also, IF everyone was following the 10 commandments, there should not be any wars. As you shall not murder, kill or whatever you want to call it, so no wars.
Then we have the priest… hmmmm love your next, well some priest really take this commandment serious, but this so called religion is just covering that up as well, and the list just goes on and on.
So you question “am I going to hell?” no in my opinion, not a chance, religion is the biggest hox ever, made by people that have nothing else to hold on to. And there is plenty of evidence to support this.

silentrust · 09-07-2013 01:30PM

Zombrex wrote: »

That isn't the point. The point is that Christianity declares what was commanded by God in the Old Testament as automatically a good thing because it was ordered by God and God can only be good and holy, and a lot more Christians should find that deeply deeply troubling to the point where there are a lot less Christians. You should find it very difficult to believe either that such a god exists or that such claims about what he ordered are true, both of which should cause you to seriously doubt the validity of Christianity.

As an atheist is it rather concerning that this doesn't seem to be an issue for billions of people around the world.

Thank you for putting it much more succinctly than I can Zombrex!

tommy2bad · 09-07-2013 06:01PM

Zombrex wrote: »

That isn't the point. The point is that Christianity declares what was commanded by God in the Old Testament as automatically a good thing because it was ordered by God and God can only be good and holy, and a lot more Christians should find that deeply deeply troubling to the point where there are a lot less Christians. You should find it very difficult to believe either that such a god exists or that such claims about what he ordered are true, both of which should cause you to seriously doubt the validity of Christianity.

As an atheist is it rather concerning that this doesn't seem to be an issue for billions of people around the world.

Repeating myself but what the hell (see what I did their

)
It's a hard one to resolve without abandoning the idea that the bible is the actual word of God and embracing the possibility that it's only one side of the story.
I don't have a problem with doing that, and I don't see it as reducing the claim that the bible is the revealed word of God.
Bold added for emphasis.

SoulandForm · 09-07-2013 07:05PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Repeating myself but what the hell (see what I did their )
It's a hard one to resolve without abandoning the idea that the bible is the actual word of God and embracing the possibility that it's only one side of the story.
I don't have a problem with doing that, and I don't see it as reducing the claim that the bible is the revealed word of God.
Bold added for emphasis.

Outside of some people on the fringes of Protestantism no Christian believes that the Bible was transcribed the way that Muslims believe that the Koran was transcribed (and no I actually have a lot of respects for Muslims)- however you dont just want to get away from the crazier aspects of literalistic fundamentalism it seems but actual essentials. A Muslim who has never got a chance to come to really get to know Christianity will probably be saved by the truths contained within Islam (and there is a lot of truth in Islam) but you claim you KNOW "good atheists" go to Heaven.

tommy2bad · 09-07-2013 07:16PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Outside of some people on the fringes of Protestantism no Christian believes that the Bible was transcribed the way that Muslims believe that the Koran was transcribed (and no I actually have a lot of respects for Muslims)- however you dont just want to get away from the crazier aspects of literalistic fundamentalism it seems but actual essentials. A Muslim who has never got a chance to come to really get to know Christianity will probably be saved by the truths contained within Islam (and there is a lot of truth in Islam) but you claim you KNOW "good atheists" go to Heaven.

I do?
"if I live a moral life but don't believe in God, do I go to hell anyway?' other than I don't know, but I do know that if you live a moral life and believe in God you go to heaven.
Remember when I said that?
Anyway universal-ism isn't unknown in Christianity, its known enough to even have a name. I'm not big on it btw I'm more a universal justice than a 'we all go to heaven and hell is empty' man

silentrust · 09-07-2013 07:20PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Repeating myself but what the hell (see what I did their )
It's a hard one to resolve without abandoning the idea that the bible is the actual word of God and embracing the possibility that it's only one side of the story.
I don't have a problem with doing that, and I don't see it as reducing the claim that the bible is the revealed word of God.
Bold added for emphasis.

Erm, I do think there's a problem! Is the Bible the revealed word of God or not? Or perhaps are parts of it are and others aren't?

SoulandForm · 09-07-2013 07:20PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

I do?
"if I live a moral life but don't believe in God, do I go to hell anyway?' other than I don't know, but I do know that if you live a moral life and believe in God you go to heaven.
Remember when I said that?
Anyway universal-ism isn't unknown in Christianity, its known enough to even have a name. I'm not big on it btw I'm more a universal justice than a 'we all go to heaven and hell is empty' man

That isnt justice.

We all, all of us, have merited hell.

That anyone gets into Heaven is down to God's unfathomable mercy.

Gumbi · 09-07-2013 07:24PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

That isnt justice.

We all, all of us, have merited hell.

That anyone gets into Heaven is down to God's unfathomable mercy.

Don't tell me I deserve hell, you don't know me.

silentrust · 09-07-2013 07:46PM

Gumbi wrote: »

Don't tell me I deserve hell, you don't know me.

As I mentioned earlier, given the alternative is the prospect of spending eternity with religious people, Hell seems to be by far the better option. :-)

SoulandForm · 09-07-2013 07:51PM

silentrust wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier, given the alternative is the prospect of spending eternity with religious people, Hell seems to be by far the better option. :-)

Exactly- Heaven would be worse than hell for many people.

silentrust · 09-07-2013 07:54PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Exactly- Heaven would be worse than hell for many people.

I imagine I'd have to give up drinking and feeling up young women with questionable morals too, which also doesn't make the prospect more alluring... :-D

Zombrex · 09-07-2013 08:09PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Repeating myself but what the hell (see what I did their )
It's a hard one to resolve without abandoning the idea that the bible is the actual word of God and embracing the possibility that it's only one side of the story.
I don't have a problem with doing that, and I don't see it as reducing the claim that the bible is the revealed word of God.

That puts you in a tiny tiny tiny minority of Christians. It also raises more issues than it solves, so it is hardly a solution to the issue.

tayto lover · 09-07-2013 08:29PM

So are people still of the belief that God will punish everyone who does not do what he says by condemning them to eternal flames?
If so where did the love and forgiveness go?

silentrust · 09-07-2013 08:37PM

Zombrex wrote: »

That puts you in a tiny tiny tiny minority of Christians. It also raises more issues than it solves, so it is hardly a solution to the issue.

True - although I have met Biblical scholars who like to claim that the Bible can be interpreted metaphorically and allegorically we still come back to the same issue - is a specific incitement to kill homosexuals for instance allegorical? Is it saying then that they are in some way sinful and doing wrong?

No cheese at the end of this tunnel for believers sadly.

Benny_Cake · 09-07-2013 08:38PM

tayto lover wrote: »

So are people still of the belief that God will punish everyone who does not do what he says by condemning them to eternal flames?
If so where did the love and forgiveness go?

It's been stated a couple of times on this thread that the three prevalent beliefs regarding hell/punishment among Christians are eternal separation from God, annilationism or universal salvation. There is plenty of information about all three out there if anyone is interested.

silentrust · 09-07-2013 08:41PM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It's been stated a couple of times on this thread that the three prevalent beliefs regarding hell/punishment among Christians are eternal separation from God, annilationism or universal salvation. There is plenty of information about all three out there if anyone is interested.

The nature of hell or the form of punishment one will receive for being a non believer is fruitful but rather semantic when you consider that whatever form such judgement will take, some Christians seem to believe it is in store for those people who are not of their faith.

Zombrex · 09-07-2013 08:52PM

silentrust wrote: »

The nature of hell or the form of punishment one will receive for being a non believer is fruitful but rather semantic when you consider that whatever form such judgement will take, some Christians seem to believe it is in store for those people who are not of their faith.

Christians also tend to be highly inconsistent in how they present these notions of hell, even among themselves. For example, if hell is simply God honouring my choice not to be with him for eternity, what am I being "saved" from. Many Christians who tell me that hell is misrepresented as a place of eternal punishment (because they find that idea morally troubling, that a loving just God would inflict eternal punishment on someone) will still tell me I should be grateful for Jesus' gift of salvation from this.

SoulandForm · 09-07-2013 08:53PM

silentrust wrote: »

The nature of hell or the form of punishment one will receive for being a non believer is fruitful but rather semantic when you consider that whatever form such judgement will take, some Christians seem to believe it is in store for those people who are not of their faith.

No those who follow the law on their hearts even if they havent heard of Christ will be saved.

Zombrex · 09-07-2013 08:56PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

No those who follow the law on their hearts even if they havent heard of Christ will be saved.

"Saved" from what exactly?

SoulandForm · 09-07-2013 09:10PM

Zombrex wrote: »

"Saved" from what exactly?

The wrath of God.

Zombrex · 09-07-2013 09:20PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

The wrath of God.

Which take what form? What happens to those who are not "saved"?

tommy2bad · 09-07-2013 11:31PM

silentrust wrote: »

Erm, I do think there's a problem! Is the Bible the revealed word of God or not? Or perhaps are parts of it are and others aren't?

Again it depends on what you mean by 'revealed'. I take the view that it is the revealed word of God but not in a literal way, you have to live it to understand it rather than it being a simple set of instructions. Others claim that it's exactly that a set of rules and instructions where every word is literally factual. I call that nuts but ymmv.

As to parts of it being revelation and others not, no, it's all revelation, the history, the myths the poetry and the legal records.

Zombrex · 10-07-2013 08:30AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

you have to live it to understand it rather than it being a simple set of instructions.

Isn't that just an example of the wishy washy nice sounding nonsense we are talking about, used to brush over the horrific details of the Old Testament?

Do you believe that God instructed, through Moses, the early Israelites to execute woman who were not virgins on their wedding night.

What greater understanding of that entirely horrific order do you gain by "living" God's message?

sbsquarepants · 10-07-2013 09:17AM

onlinenerd wrote: »

Interestingly God has answered these questions in the Bible when the Pharisees asked Jesus whose fault it was the person was sick and Jesus said he was sick for the glorification of Gods Kingdom. All bad things in the world dont mean it is because of God alone we humans also have to take the blame as well for the wars instead of saying God is cruel and unjust. Always remember that God has a great plan for each and every one of you and if it is according to his will it will be for your success and greatness and not for your failure and defeat.

Sick for the glorification of god? WTF. So god gets some sort of buzz out of giving babies cancer?? Is that what you're saying?
As for wars, i never mentioned them - people are squarely to blame for those imo (but then who made the people, knowing full well what they'd do in advance and yada yada yada) so his fault again when we get right down to it.
And as for this great plan of gods - what do you reckon was his great plan for Maddie McCann for example - surely she couldn't have pissed him off yet, even though he is quite clearly a petty, tetchy, narccisistic, psychotic tyrant on even the most cursory glance at the "evidence"

hinault wrote: »

It is a question that I've hard before.

God is infinite and omnipotent.
He does knows that you will use your free will in all things temporal and spiritual.

God knows what you will do in advance.
That knowledge doesn't determine what you, using your own free will, will choose to do.
It is you, and only you, who will determine what you do.
The fact that God already knows what you will do, in no way negates your free will in the matter.

Do you not see the contradiction there - he knows what you're going to do before hand, but he then tests you and punishes you for failing the test he knew you'd fail all along. That's called entrapment. And seems to be quite a waste of a supreme beings time.
You wouldn't catch apple making ipods they knew wouldn't pass quality inspection just so they could destroy them - it would be a monumentaly stupid thing to do. If apple (and everyone else) can see this, why can't god?

tommy2bad wrote: »

Again.... God dosn't know what decision you will make until you make it. For you that's in the future, for God it's now. This isn't as hard as it sounds, you live in a linear time frame, God exists in a non linear time, it always now for God.

Omnipotent, omniscient. Not can do a bit, knows bit.
Are you telling me i know something that god doesn't?

onlinenerd wrote: »

God says that he is a forgiving because he will forgive a person after he sins and when you say a life of no harm, please abide by the moral laws such as no physical relationship before marriage and this as said by Mary at the Fatima apparition "More souls go to Hell because of the sins of the flesh than for any other reason.".

Think about it and keep away from mortal sins and this should at least avoid you hell even if you dont go to church.

You don't think that sounds a bit petty and snivelly for a supreme being? Out of this entire unimaginably vast universe he is concerned about where i stick my teeny tiny todger? Come on, that's really quite pathetic do you not think? (the concern, not the todger - it's only tiny on a universal scale. It's quite impressive in the flesh;))
I mean surely there must be a big black hole somewhere more worthy of his attention (excuse the pun)
But every cloud has a silver lining, and on the upside - hell is full of sluts, so happy days. Eternity is a long time without an auld bit of how's your father every now and again!:D

silentrust · 10-07-2013 09:23AM

Zombrex wrote: »

Isn't that just an example of the wishy washy nice sounding nonsense we are talking about, used to brush over the horrific details of the Old Testament?

Do you believe that God instructed, through Moses, the early Israelites to execute woman who were not virgins on their wedding night.

What greater understanding of that entirely horrific order do you gain by "living" God's message?

Well said Zombrex - once again are we to interpret this allegorically to mean that women who are unmarried yet not virgins are immoral? (I note there's no such injunction upon men to stay chaste until they tie the knot! :-D )

In any case, I would like to recommend a website of which I am very fond : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/, the print edition of which sits proudly in my bookshelf - it exposes the Bible for what it is, a long history of cruelty and violence, which in fairness pretty much sums things up to date.

In any case there's an extensive section on every injustice advocated throughout the "good" book - which is why I am forced to conclude that if you take the Bible as God's inspired word, then you have to be a rather morally dubious human being.

Of course tommy2bad has claimed that he doesn't do so - and hats off to you for it, I welcome you to the fold but you must admit that isn't the claim of mainstream religion, nor I imagine the senior figures in your own faith, so I am interested how you reconcile the two? So far, you've told me you don't see a contradiction, but isn't it rather clear?

silentrust · 10-07-2013 09:28AM

tommy2bad wrote: »

Again it depends on what you mean by 'revealed'. I take the view that it is the revealed word of God but not in a literal way, you have to live it to understand it rather than it being a simple set of instructions. Others claim that it's exactly that a set of rules and instructions where every word is literally factual. I call that nuts but ymmv.

As to parts of it being revelation and others not, no, it's all revelation, the history, the myths the poetry and the legal records.

I am not sure how we draw a distinction between the revealed word of God as a set of instructions and a way to live one's life (they seem much the same thing to me) but nevertheless we've seen examples of Christians using these "revelations" to inflict unspeakable suffering, as well as great good - do you not think it's fair to say that there is some fault in a text which permits both good and evil?

To put it another way, if you believe the text has to be lived then do you think a fairer judgement of Christianity would be by the actions of its followers as they do so?

silentrust · 10-07-2013 09:29AM

SoulandForm wrote: »

The wrath of God.

I think I'll take my chances, thanks all the same. :-)

silentrust · 10-07-2013 09:35AM

See also :

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/rom/9.html#11

Apparently God does know before we're even born whether we're going to grow up to be moral people or not and by extension if we're going to Heaven or Hell. Hence the question á la Ricky Gervais. "If there is a God, why did he make me an Atheist?"

SoulandForm · 10-07-2013 10:26AM

Benny_Cake wrote: »

It's been stated a couple of times on this thread that the three prevalent beliefs regarding hell/punishment among Christians are eternal separation from God, annilationism or universal salvation. There is plenty of information about all three out there if anyone is interested.

That idea is completely illogical and unBiblical.

To be separated from God the giver of life would mean to cease to exist.

Secondly St Paul tells us that in the Age to come God will be "All in All".

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

1 Corinthians 15:28

Benny_Cake · 10-07-2013 10:29AM

SoulandForm wrote: »

That idea is completely illogical and unBiblical.

To be separated from God the giver of life would mean to cease to exist.

Secondly St Paul tells us that in the Age to come God will be "All in All".

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

1 Corinthians 15:28

I meant to include eternal conscious torment there as well. To some, eternal separation from God would amount to the same thing.

Am I going to hell?

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