Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

I certainly that women should be giving a choice about what they wish to do with their bodies, but I was thinking lately and I certainly don't mean it in a bad way, just asking questions as I believe as rational discussion should allow but what adoption when the mother doesn't wish to raise the child? (Obviously in cases of rape or incest that's a completely different story) but in the case that a mother isn't ready for a child or doesn't have the means to raise it? I was also thinking in some cases, does abortion- where the male partner wishes to keep and raise the baby not lessen his rights when the baby is technically half his? Again, I don't want anyone to take those questions the wrong way I was just thinking them over myself lately.

Precious flower wrote: »

I certainly that women should be giving a choice about what they wish to do with their bodies, but I was thinking lately and I certainly don't mean it in a bad way, just asking questions as I believe as rational discussion should allow but what adoption when the mother doesn't wish to raise the child? (Obviously in cases of rape or incest that's a completely different story) but in the case that a mother isn't ready for a child or doesn't have the means to raise it? I was also thinking in some cases, does abortion- where the male partner wishes to keep and raise the baby not lessen his rights when the baby is technically half his? Again, I don't want anyone to take those questions the wrong way I was just thinking them over myself lately.

Fair questions. Here's my take on them.

I'm sure many women who have unwanted pregnancies (if not most? what do I know?) will carefully think through all their available options and include the father's opinion more often than not. But lets be realistic here. Women with unwanted pregnancies (let's leave aside those who need TFMR here) have become pregnant without wanting to, whether by accident or by abuse.

Having had two children, I for one would not ask a woman in this position to continue being pregnant if she does not want to be, as I know what a difficult experience just being pregnant can be even when it is wanted. To ask a woman to do that would be entirely for the sake of keeping a foetus alive, that may or may not become a baby if it is brought to term. While I can understand the views of people who see this as paramount, because to them, it is already a person with rights, it is not my view.

To me, this is ONE potential child, where every woman/man has thousands of potential children (fertility issues aside). To put it bluntly, I have no more difficulty with the act of killing one foetus (potential child) as I do with killing an adult cow for my beef burger. Even that cow had potential to have as complete a cow-life as it could. We morally are able to recognise that our "need" for meat supersedes that of the adult cow's life, with all it's experiences and it's cow-like urges to stay alive. I personally, morally recognise that a woman's need to choose her own life's trajectory, supersedes that of the potential of one of her eggs that was fertilised and became an embryo/fetus.

lazygal wrote: »

i'm still not impressed TBH. They still took them on as a customer in the first place. Not a great show of ethics in my mind.

Well, yeah. But I'm more impressed than I was. Money means too much at the mo....but they just found out what else it means - unethical behaviour.

B0jangles wrote: »

I was thinking about the whole adoption thing and about how incredibly difficult it would be, not only at the point where you give the child up, but for the whole duration of the pregnancy after the point where you become visibly pregnant.

Imagine having to explain to your immediate, and extended family that, no, you will not be keeping the child.

Having to deal with colleagues at work asking about whether it's a girl or a boy, if you have names picked, etc. etc. - maybe even setting up a surprise baby-shower to congratulate you. These may well be people you don't feel comfortable telling about your decision, so you'll have to work out some way to fend off questions after you return from maternity leave, or just give up and switch jobs.

Then, for the rest of your life, having to deal with knowing that your child is out there somewhere, and maybe not ever knowing if they are happy, well-loved and safe.



It sounds incredibly, horribly difficult - kudos to anyone who chooses to do it, but I really don't think people should go around suggesting that it's an easy answer to a very difficult situation.

Edit to add: Not for one second am I trying to put anyone off choosing to do this - I was just thinking through what kinds of things would happen to me, personally I don't think I'd be able to go through with it - but again, that is just me.

I know I was thinking that myself as well, the waters are murky indeed with this topic however, and again I'm just thinking this through and I'm not trying to attack anyone, but is it not better that even though adoption was the course taken, that the child is alive and healthy? I know I can comment on how incredible hard it must be and I would never judge anyone in that situation, never but isn't it better that that child gets a chance at life in those circumstance? (where rape, incest and abuse are not the reasons for the unplanned pregnancy which, again, is a completely different story) Again, not trying to attack anyone!

Precious flower wrote: »

Again, I understand what you're saying and your points makes sense, but then we consider a cow's life to be beneath our own, so we can kill and consume it without feeling too much guilt. But again, is it the child's fault it was conceived? In cases where the cause of the pregnancy was not traumatic should the child not be given a chance at life? However, saying that I'm not sure how I would react in the situation, but I don't know there are just all these grey areas in my head and I'm just trying to sift though them. Again not trying to attack anyone, but I feel the need to ask these questions if this is a discussion and not an argument.

Totally fine with your questions PF! Just to pick up on your statement there though, that I've bolded. Who's this "we" exactly? I consider a life as a life. Not as beneath our own - we as humans have decided that cows are beneath us - I don't believe in a god, so I don't believe animals are put here for our consumption. I do believe that we are the most powerful animals on earth, and as such, we take decisions about other life on earth that we try to justify by calling ourselves "better" than other life. Are we? Why? That's a rhetorical question really....not looking for an answer!

Similarly, we humans set our own rules regarding our own. Obviously, we care about each other more than the other animals, and each other's experiences and potentials because we are social animals who live next to and with each other and have become community minded to protect ourselves and our lifestyles. But our rules are not set in stone.

Abortion has been needed, and availed of by women (to my mind) since the first unwanted pregnancy was cut short by a bad fall or eating a certain plant - this learning would have been indicated to the next woman whose pregnancy was unwelcome....etc.,etc. Why is killing a tiny, non sentient human worse than killing a cow? I can't answer that one adequately. We humans make our own morals, and mine are as good as anyone's tbh....

Is it the cow's fault it was conceived?

I just had to go on the Youth Defence website to see their aims and objectives.

http://www.youthdefence.ie/who-we-are/aims-and-objectives/

It's simple really, our aim is to keep Ireland abortion-free. Educating people, helping mothers, lobbying, campaigning; all our objectives are undertaken with that aim.

We began protecting life in February of 1992 when seven young people came together in Dublin to organise against abortion.

It happened mostly because at that time, the X case posed a very real threat to the unborn child. Pro-abortion opportunists, who are always only too happy to jump on cases like this to push their agenda, were shouting for abortion as an immediate priority. If it was not legislated for before it was too late, babies would be born!

The media, who, lets face it, have a little of a leaning in that direction anyway, lapped up the drama.

There was pretty much a strained silence from the rest of the country who, even if they are totally passive about it, are pro-life. Their silence was sold as consent. If you were living in say, Paris, and got the Irish Independent every morning, you would think that the country was bristling with pro-abortion multitudes who were just on the verge of a rebellion to overthrow a backward and out of touch junta.

So, we said "hold it there for one second". It was time for young people to make their voices heard against abortion.

"If it was not legislated for before it was too late, babies would be born!" Sh*te, we missed out on the opportunity to murder a few babies! :rolleyes:

"There was pretty much a strained silence from the rest of the country who, even if they are totally passive about it, are pro-life." So unless I'm out marching with a pro-choice placard hanging around my neck I must be pro-life? :rolleyes:

And elsewhere...

"YD believes in the power of action. Belief without action is like a body without breath. The time to act is now, before Ireland joins the rest of the world in the slaughter of innocent children."

Seriously. :mad: