Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Loafing Oaf · 25-06-2013 12:07PM

lazygal wrote: »

According to Breda O'Brien, who's a teacher but nonetheless decided she had medical expertise, an elevated white cell count is grounds for an abortion. That's what she told Peter Boylan, who's an obstetrician, anyway, who disagreed with her. But what would he know?

But that interview was also evidence that Pro-Lifers don't seem all that bothered about holding medical professionals to a standards of 'real and substantial' risk to life. You get the feeling that if the law permitting abortion for any bona fide medical reasons could be devised they'd be happy with that. It's these brazen hussies and their 'social abortion's that really get their goat...

lazygal · 25-06-2013 12:14PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

But that interview was also evidence that Pro-Lifers don't seem all that bothered about holding medical professionals to a standards of 'real and substantial' risk to life. You get the feeling that if the law permitting abortion for any bona fide medical reasons could be devised they'd be happy with that. It's these brazen hussies and their 'social abortion's that really get their goat...

Well, its the stupid sluts who don't bother with contraception and get pregnant left right and centre who should have to have the hassle and expense of travel. Of course, when you've a black and white view of who 'deserves' medical treatment like abortion you don't want to know about fatal foetal abnormalities, or a couple who didn't want a larger family and have used contraception, or the woman who never wanted a child at all and wouldn't 'rise to the occasion' by having to endure becoming a parent, or the child who was raped by a family friend and becomes pregnant. And sure mental grounds for abortion will open the floodgates - despite the fact floodgates are designed to control the flow of something.

kylith · 25-06-2013 03:03PM

Anastasia Tinkling Sheriff wrote: »

Genuine question here (not trolling).

Why are the pro-life campaign against abortions in a medical emergency?

I can't understand it. Take the case of Savita in Galway. It was a terrible situation. What happened as we all know is that she died and the foetus she was carrying never developed into a baby and was born. Her husband was left without a wife or a potential child.

Now if she did have the abortion, it would still be a bad situation. Savita and her husband would be mourning the fact that they were not going to have the child they were looking forward to having. However at least Savita would still be alive!

Surely that's a better situation that the one that happened? Surely, it would be the Christian thing to have performed that abortion and make the best of a terrible situation? A case of helping your fellow man.

I'm waiting for someone from the pro-life campaign to call to my door so I can ask them their reasoning for being against abortion in a medical emergency.

If there's one thing I've noticed about fanatical Christians it's that they seem to have little interest in doing anything that could be called Christian.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 25-06-2013 04:01PM

kylith wrote: »

If there's one thing I've noticed about fanatical Christians it's that they seem to have little interest in doing anything that could be called Christian.

Yeah, that's the hilariously ironic part.

sunshine and showers · 25-06-2013 07:51PM

Anastasia Tinkling Sheriff wrote: »

So if the part of the bill that deals with "risk of suicide" was removed they would support the bill?

Possibly not, because they refuse to acknowledge that the "life saving measures" taken to save women's lives during pregnancies are, in fact, abortions. It's an abortion whether you intend to kill the child, or not. That's the simple fact of it.

What is really getting to me is the fact that, aside from the suicide provision, there is no argument here. The pro-life movement, the Catholic church, and their mother are all saying that in a situation where a mother's life is at risk, if all possible steps are taken to save the life of the foetus/baby/I'm not having that argument, then it's perfectly ethical to end the pregnancy to save the mother's life. That is an abortion.

No ifs, no buts, no "but they wanted the baby so it's not an abortion". The twisting of the term abortion is what is confusing people into thinking that there is some big scandalous change of law occurring with the passage of this Bill. There is not. It is simply a restatement of the law in Ireland as it currently stands.

My opinion on the entire Bill: if any T.D. or Senator has a problem and thinks that their opinion is above the Constitution (and two referenda supporting the suicide provision), they can feel free to kindly eff off. If they were simply saying that another referendum was needed, then I would feel they were overreacting a bit, but fair enough. The fact that they are shooting it down because of their own personal feelings on abortion is what jars me.

RDM_83 again · 25-06-2013 09:11PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

They're not, they just don't call it abortion, describing it as the unavoidable death of the unborn as a side-effect of medical intervention, or some such sophistry.

sunshine and showers wrote: »

Possibly not, because they refuse to acknowledge that the "life saving measures" taken to save women's lives during pregnancies are, in fact, abortions. It's an abortion whether you intend to kill the child, or not. That's the simple fact of it.

What is really getting to me is the fact that, aside from the suicide provision, there is no argument here. The pro-life movement, the Catholic church, and their mother are all saying that in a situation where a mother's life is at risk, if all possible steps are taken to save the life of the foetus/baby/I'm not having that argument, then it's perfectly ethical to end the pregnancy to save the mother's life. That is an abortion.

No ifs, no buts, no "but they wanted the baby so it's not an abortion". The twisting of the term abortion is what is confusing people into thinking that there is some big scandalous change of law occurring with the passage of this Bill. There is not. It is simply a restatement of the law in Ireland as it currently stands.

So who gets to define nomenclature*???
Because I've read things where Abortion is defined as the termination of a viable pregnancy, if the mother is going to die while the baby is premature, its hardly viable.
E.g definition used in this paper.
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/gmj/article/viewFile/55256/43723

In other cases its simply the premature termination of pregnancy.
In short why assume that its deliberately dishonest usage?

*Not just me that thinks this
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0277953689903626

Macha · 26-06-2013 09:11AM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

So who gets to define nomenclature*???
Because I've read things where Abortion is defined as the termination of a viable pregnancy, if the mother is going to die while the baby is premature, its hardly viable.
E.g definition used in this paper.
http://www.ajol.info/index.php/gmj/article/viewFile/55256/43723

In other cases its simply the premature termination of pregnancy.
In short why assume that its deliberately dishonest usage?

*Not just me that thinks this
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0277953689903626

I don't think conveniently selected scientific papers are a good source for a definition of an abortion. Whatever about the debate over the definition of abortion including miscarriages, I've never heard of anyone trying to make the distinction you've tried to make here.

The only use of viability is referred to that of the foetus, not of the pregnancy (whatever that means). So we see this medical dictionary using the following definition: "The spontaneous or induced termination of pregnancy before the fetus reaches a viable age."

And if anyone remembers the awful case of the Ecuadorian woman denied an abortion, you may also remember it was resolved because the foetus reached the legally defined status of viability, the baby was delivered (and as was inevitable, died) and the woman was given the life-saving treatment she needed.

jaja321 · 26-06-2013 09:54AM

We need a Wendy Davis http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/26/wendy-davis-abortion-filibuster-chaos

"An attempt to block a controversial abortion bill in the Texas state legislature ended in chaos after a day of high procedural drama, led by state senator Wendy Davis and fanned by nationwide support on social media, culminated in a hotly contested vote.

Republicans said the bill, which would severely restrict access to abortion in the state, passed the Republican-dominated legislature within a midnight deadline.

But reporters watching the vote were clear that it was not completed until after midnight. The Guardian, monitoring the debate on a live stream, judged a roll call was not finished until 12.01am local time at the earliest.

Democrats said they would mount a challenge if the bill was ruled to have passed.

In all, Davis spoke for 10 hours and 45 minutes in an attempt to filibuster the bill. When procedural motions brought by Republican opponents forced her to stop speaking, other Democratic colleagues attempted to run down the clock"

B0jangles · 26-06-2013 10:04AM

jaja321 wrote: »

We need a Wendy Davis http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/26/wendy-davis-abortion-filibuster-chaos

"An attempt to block a controversial abortion bill in the Texas state legislature ended in chaos after a day of high procedural drama, led by state senator Wendy Davis and fanned by nationwide support on social media, culminated in a hotly contested vote.

Republicans said the bill, which would severely restrict access to abortion in the state, passed the Republican-dominated legislature within a midnight deadline.

But reporters watching the vote were clear that it was not completed until after midnight. The Guardian, monitoring the debate on a live stream, judged a roll call was not finished until 12.01am local time at the earliest.

Democrats said they would mount a challenge if the bill was ruled to have passed.

In all, Davis spoke for 10 hours and 45 minutes in an attempt to filibuster the bill. When procedural motions brought by Republican opponents forced her to stop speaking, other Democratic colleagues attempted to run down the clock"

I think the bill has been deemed dead by the lieutenant-Governer of texas, but not before 'somebody' altered the official record of when the voting occurred to make it appear to have all happened before midnight:

http://soupsoup.net/2013/06/26/texas-senate-changes-date-on-their-sb5-results/

Edit: yup, it's dead: http://www.texastribune.org/2013/06/26/led-davis-democrats-defeat-abortion-legislation/

yay!

Morag · 26-06-2013 02:10PM

I stayed up to watch it, it was amazing.

IvyTheTerrible · 26-06-2013 03:48PM

jaja321 wrote: »

We need a Wendy Davis http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/26/wendy-davis-abortion-filibuster-chaos

"An attempt to block a controversial abortion bill in the Texas state legislature ended in chaos after a day of high procedural drama, led by state senator Wendy Davis and fanned by nationwide support on social media, culminated in a hotly contested vote.

Republicans said the bill, which would severely restrict access to abortion in the state, passed the Republican-dominated legislature within a midnight deadline.

But reporters watching the vote were clear that it was not completed until after midnight. The Guardian, monitoring the debate on a live stream, judged a roll call was not finished until 12.01am local time at the earliest.

Democrats said they would mount a challenge if the bill was ruled to have passed.

In all, Davis spoke for 10 hours and 45 minutes in an attempt to filibuster the bill. When procedural motions brought by Republican opponents forced her to stop speaking, other Democratic colleagues attempted to run down the clock"

While it's great that the bill failed, I'm not sure I like the tactics. What's to stop the pro-life lobby using the same techniques to stymie opposing legislation?

Morag · 26-06-2013 03:49PM

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/06/25/my-abortion-2

Someone shared their story on Broadsheet.

inocybe · 26-06-2013 06:17PM

A definite no for including provision for fatal foetal abnormalities. I'm so disgusted and angry...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/kenny-rules-out-abortion-law-change-for-unviable-foetuses-29374582.html

jaja321 · 26-06-2013 06:38PM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

While it's great that the bill failed, I'm not sure I like the tactics. What's to stop the pro-life lobby using the same techniques to stymie opposing legislation?

Nothing in US state legislatures where it is legal. Whatever you might think of the filibuster procedure, it is legal in the Texas legislature and I think she used it for good. I wouldn't like to see the same procedure in our Dail however, given its conservative nature.... and the fact that its a pretty undemocratic procedure!

Obliq · 27-06-2013 08:13AM

Morag wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/06/25/my-abortion-2

Someone shared their story on Broadsheet.

Everyone should read it. This is a story from an Irish woman who took her decision and lives with it. A good and strong woman, and one we've lost to another country where she's not treated shamefully. She tells her story to inform and support other women who will encounter the same obstacles and lack of care after an abortion.

27-06-2013 10:21AM

Someone seems to have covered those awful YD posters in green neon paint.
Can't say I'm too disheartened, particularly if they're illegally up

LittleBook · 27-06-2013 11:00AM

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

While it's great that the bill failed, I'm not sure I like the tactics. What's to stop the pro-life lobby using the same techniques to stymie opposing legislation?

Given that what's happening in the US at the moment (at least in several states like Texas) are various attempts to roll back already legal abortion practices and reproductive rights, I wouldn't worry too much about that for now.

Morag · 27-06-2013 12:01PM

We are in a very strange place that the government is trying to legislate for what the irish people wanted 21 years ago interms of the right to an abortion under certain circumstances while the majority of people currently, want more abortion rights to safe guard the life and health of women. So pretty much the bill they are working on turning into law is not pleasing anyone.

rainbow kirby · 27-06-2013 12:27PM

Guess who just rocked up outside the Rape Crisis Centre...

27-06-2013 12:34PM

That is fcuking disgusting

Das Kitty · 27-06-2013 12:42PM

Another week, another glossy propoganda leaflet in with the paper.

Heard the people from the Termination for Medical Reasons group on Matt Cooper yesterday. Never fails to get to me how let down these people are by our state. http://www.terminationformedicalreasons.com/

There's a quiz coming up in Galway where the prize is a half page ad in one of the local free papers. If I can get to it with a good team I'd definitely choose a group like that to get the ad space if I managed to win.

FouxDaFaFa · 27-06-2013 12:52PM

Everyone should have the right to protest but people have to be held accountable for that kind of thing. Parking that van outside a rape crisis centre (if it was intentional) will do nothing but cause even greater emotional distress to women who are already in a vulnerable mental state.

Links234 · 27-06-2013 01:50PM

bluewolf wrote: »

That is fcuking disgusting

It's not just disgusting, it's astonishing how blatantly they show their utter contempt for women. If anyone ever needed something to demonstrate how the so-called "pro-life" crowd really hate women, they can point to this.

eviltwin · 27-06-2013 01:54PM

It does make you wonder what kind of people they are and what attitudes they hold about rape that they don't see anything wrong with putting this ad outside the RCC. I've heard anecdotal stories about certain pro life groups who think that rape is something women bring on themselves by acting a certain way. I didn't really believe it before but now? Well I wonder.

jaja321 · 27-06-2013 01:59PM

I shouldn't be shocked, but I am. That's f***ing outrageous. :mad:

Morag · 27-06-2013 02:18PM

the YD AD van illegally parked as been reported to the garda.
https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/350236758820139008

Morag · 27-06-2013 02:37PM

So http://www.admobile.ie/contact.html are the people YD have hired the van from and that is their contact page if anyone wants to get in touch with them.

eviltwin · 27-06-2013 02:59PM

Morag wrote: »

So http://www.admobile.ie/contact.html are the people YD have hired the van from and that is their contact page if anyone wants to get in touch with them.

done

bikemedvol · 27-06-2013 03:20PM

First of all I am a man and I am sickened by the whole anti or pro life groups and most of all the church and the governments inaction.

1) Where does the church get the right to dictacte to people, especially women, what they do with th bodies. Where is it written in the bible that abortion is against Gods so called law. When the Catholic hirearchy start to have proper relationships and have female partners who want children, then they can have a say, until then they should just stay out of it and keep there bigoted opions to themselves.

The so called right to life campaing, is a bunch of Neo Nazi Facist idiots.
They shoulkd be banned or arrestedfor some of there views or treated like an extremist group and watched closely by the authorities. Threatening to cut a TD's throat if they vote yes to bring in abortion.
Who gives them the right to say what a woman can or cannot do, it's a demomcracy we live in not a dictatorship. Grow up, if you dont like it vote no or get out of Ireland.

People should have the right to make up there own minds without IDIOTS or Gobs****s making an issue especially if they re not affected. If a woman decides to have an abortion, its their decision and one which they will have to live with for the rest of there days.

Recently in South America a woman took a case against her Government who wouldn't allow here to have an abortion despite the fact that she has to serious life threatening medical conditions and also that the baby when born would not Survive for long. She lost the case and now her life is in danger as well as the unborn babys.

Obliq · 27-06-2013 03:46PM

Morag wrote: »

So http://www.admobile.ie/contact.html are the people YD have hired the van from and that is their contact page if anyone wants to get in touch with them.

Done. As someone who once needed that very Rape Crisis Center's services, I gave them a right going over. Fcukers.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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