Should Civil Servants be removed +new ones hired after 5 years?

boombang · 13-06-2013 02:10PM

I think the principle of what the OP is suggesting isn't incorrect, just that it is practically a non-runner due to the costs of retraining and the loss of expertise.

However, I think there is a serious problem of dead wood from what I can see. I think that serving staff should be required to reapply for their own post every three years or so and compete against new applicants in an open competition. They should be automatically get a pass to the interview stage and they will have the edge of experience over new entrants. However, the threat of not getting re-hired would keep people on their toes. Furthermore, it would allow the public service drop the under-performers that I have seen clog up the system like cholesterol.

Sofa King Great · 13-06-2013 02:18PM

In order to replace all the civil servants a similar number of experienced people would have to leave their jobs in the private sector who would be replaced by a mixture of others from the public and private sectors.

Lets say there are 200,000 civil servants. In order to fill the jobs say 400,000 people in the pivate sector move job too.

That is 600,000 leaving parties in one year. The pubs wuold be rammed.

The publicans always win!

SHOVELLER · 30-06-2013 07:34PM

Clerical officers should be encouraged, as part of their PMDS, to move to other sections once every 4 years. Having the same person in the same section for longer than a decade is no good for anyone.

This might happen if HR were not so toothless.

truebluesac · 30-06-2013 08:13PM

Must say Rediculous idea . Not all civil servants make decisions or brought the country down . Notball heads of departments ran their deparments as corrupt sections hidding all the secrets and lies .

Would ya like a paramedic nurses doctors or firefighter saving your kids with less than 5 years experience coming to your aid . Like wise would ya get on a plane knowing that the guys up front had little or no experience between them ?

Cause everyone in the civil or public sector brought the contry to its knees and not the public sector bankers and developers with the currupt politicians in their pocket now was it .

woodoo · 30-06-2013 08:36PM

Our public service is the best in the world. You should be ringing up the odd time just to tell them how grateful you are for them.

Bullseye1 · 30-06-2013 08:38PM

What expertise? You'd swear they were NASA scientists.

wendell borton · 30-06-2013 09:05PM

What we need is a good 'old Stalinist purge to sort the p.s. higher ups. Then hire some intelligent, decent people with a sense of duty in the mold of tk Whitaker.

Sheep Shagger · 30-06-2013 09:17PM

truebluesac wrote: »

Cause everyone in the civil or public sector brought the contry to its knees and not the public sector bankers and developers with the currupt politicians in their pocket now was it .

Even before the **** hit the fan I think most people recognised we dont (or didn't) have a civil service that's fit for purpose. It's nothing to do with the downturn (that shouldn't be the only reason why state spending is reviewed).

There's a lot of duplication/wastage that could be scrapped, unfortunately that would mean job cuts but the state shouldn't keep offices/departments open just for the sake of it (specifically talking about the number of local councils and quangos that add no value to anyone).

truebluesac · 02-07-2013 04:44PM

Of course it needs reform . And i am all for reform in the right way .

Nobody cared what was happening in the public service while the money was rolling in and everyone in the country had money . My bro work on a building site as a labourer cleaning and was pulling at least a grand a week for pushing that brum . We all had money to splash and we didnt care about the public service infact we gave out if we were more than 20 mins in the passport or tax offices taxing our flash new cars or just before our lavish holidays . But now that the attention has been refocused and few have money . the honest hard working public servants are being painted with the same brush as the lying ciniving CU*TS that brought us all to our knees .

Change for the better but not change for the sake of change or to be seen to be doing somthing

Sheep Shagger · 02-07-2013 08:15PM

Have said it before, reform can be done without touching a single nurse, gard or fire fighter.

Put all civil /public servants on €50k or less aside for a moment, then do a root and branch review of anyone on more than €50k, that's where the problem lies.

People whose salaries are now out of sync after incremental bonuses (nothing to do with performance), admin pen pushers with no real purpose and plain old deadwood.

Sadly some of these folk have become accustomed to a lifestyle (one they should never had considering the unskilled nature of their work), they clearly won't want to give up this lifestyle easily but it's the frontline staff paying for the wastage by way of low pay/rubbish working conditions .

Acacia · 02-07-2013 08:43PM

Seriously, the anti-civil service, anti-dole, anti-whatever threads on AH just get stupider and stupider...

Addle · 02-07-2013 08:45PM

I presume you mean senior civil servants?

Most competitions for jobs in the service are open to all.
You should have applied when you had the opportunity!
With the embargo, there's minimum opportunities for the vast majority now.

Claregirl · 02-07-2013 09:35PM

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

This would give everyone a chance at having a job and even a pension.

Sign me up straight away a pension after 5 years

:D:D Beats the miserable 12K after 40 years

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Currently, the Government Departments have done little about the unemployment crisis. This would give them an interest in it as they would be facing the dole queues (not jobs for life) after 5 years. They would want to tackle the unemployment problem not ignore it.

Seriously what can a civil servant do in relation to the unemployment crisis - this is Government failure not civil service. Austerity has left people with no money to spend how can any economy create jobs with no money

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

I think this would change voting patterns in Ireland .

This one gave me the biggest laugh you honestly think 33,000 Civil Servants can change the outcome of an election have you not seen what FG have done so far to the Civil Service?? FG is and always has been anti Civil & Public Service.

Perhaps a more sensible suggestion would be anyone on 80K+ is placed on a temporary contract then get Michael O'Leary in to review and decide who stays and who goes

Or maybe even do a review on the now multiple layers of management in the Health Board HSE:rolleyes:

.jacksparrow. · 02-07-2013 09:39PM

I still don't understand how you expect people to care about a job and work hard and have pride when they know its impossible to get sacked.

No wonder there is people giving everyone in the public sector a bad name.

Claregirl · 02-07-2013 09:44PM

Addle wrote: »

You should have applied when you had the opportunity!
With the embargo, there's minimum opportunities for the vast majority now.

Whatever about the embargo the extra hours gained in Haddington Rd has also done away with a large number of permanent positions across the civil / public service.

Addle · 02-07-2013 09:54PM

I'm a low grade civil servant and I had a meeting with a bank official today who couldn't believe the amount that is taken from my wages as a pension contribution-an obligatory deduction.
If I paid the same amount into a low risk pension policy with a private fund, I'd have a much better return.
So don't start on about pensions! We pay well for them! Or at least anyone who was hired after April 1994 does.

Addle · 02-07-2013 09:57PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I still don't understand how you expect people to care about a job and work hard and have pride when they know its impossible to get sacked.

No wonder there is people giving everyone in the public sector a bad name.

I'm from a small enough town, and I know of 3 people from my home town who have been sacked from the service.
It does happen.

Claregirl · 02-07-2013 10:16PM

Anyone working in public / civil service know all about the deadwood and find it extremely frustrating not only to be tarred with the same brush but having to cope with the extra workload to make up for the slackers - if someone is not performing there are mechanisms in place to deal with them - Management is the problem here it's too "difficult" to deal with wasters so they're moved or promoted or in some cases ignored in case it reflects badly on the manager.

I've also come across managers in my time earning in excess of 80K a year who cause more problems than they solve, cannot make a decision and are frankly an embarrassment to the workers they represent at meetings.

MOC88 · 02-07-2013 11:09PM

boombang wrote: »

I think the principle of what the OP is suggesting isn't incorrect, just that it is practically a non-runner due to the costs of retraining and the loss of expertise.

However, I think there is a serious problem of dead wood from what I can see. I think that serving staff should be required to reapply for their own post every three years or so and compete against new applicants in an open competition. They should be automatically get a pass to the interview stage and they will have the edge of experience over new entrants. However, the threat of not getting re-hired would keep people on their toes. Furthermore, it would allow the public service drop the under-performers that I have seen clog up the system like cholesterol.

This, but maybe 5 years

mikemac1 · 02-07-2013 11:10PM

Have dealt with the staff in Revenue many times and never gotten anything less then superb service. Fair play, thumbs up.
PAYE Anytime is also a credit to them.

Welfare staff on the other hand talked down to me and were not efficient at all.
I thought I was taking the money from her purse!!

OP, you talk about civil servants as if they are all the same. Like your office, your college class, your sports team and your friends some are legends and some would hang ya.

Your plan doesn't separate anyway

Celly Smunt · 02-07-2013 11:32PM

Lately i've noticed that civil servants i'm dealing with are much more efficient and friendly than they used to be.Revenue as mentioned above are always a pleasure to deal with (unless they're taking everything off you).

A new INDEPENDENT body outside of the public sector to take mandatory reviews of office departments and staff within the public sector would be welcomed and would probably create a few jobs too.

Boskowski · 02-07-2013 11:37PM

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

This would give everyone a chance at having a job and even a pension.

Haha, great pension with 5 years service alright.

Public servants were laughed at not so long ago. Laughed at in their dead end low paid jobs. Now the tide has turned and they are the envy of everyone.

Get yourself a job. There is no obligation to deliver one to your doorstep.

Paulzx · 02-07-2013 11:39PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I still don't understand how you expect people to care about a job and work hard and have pride when they know its impossible to get sacked.

.

...and why would anyone care about a job and work hard and have pride when they are automatically getting sacked after 5 years which is the OP's braindead suggestion

Paulzx · 02-07-2013 11:40PM

Boombastic wrote: »

I rang them last week, the didn't answer the phone, maybe they haven't been trained up in it yet in that department

They have caller I.D...they knew it was you

meoklmrk91 · 02-07-2013 11:51PM

I have dealt with members of the civil service in many capacities, county council workers, tax office workers, gardai, nurses, doctors and worst of all social welfare workers and officers. The latter you would swear were paying you out their own pocket, I have yet to meet one with any decent kind of manner who didn't speak down to people. Tbh when dealing with civil servants I have found that meeting one who has decent manners is not the norm.

It is my belief that it is their job security that contributes to this, if I rang a private company and made a complaint regarding the way I was spoken to it wouldn't be very well received by higher ups, I know people who work in customer service it is very much frowned upon and can get you in serious trouble. This fear isn't keeping civil servants in line I find the majority to be rude people who have no business doing what they are doing, if they can't be excuse the pun civil then they should feck off and find a job where they don't have to deal with people.

However I don't think that they should loose their jobs ever five years, I think that complaints should be taken more seriously and deadwood rooted out with absolutely no remorse. I have seen people come out of the social welfare officers office crying, crying for gods sake, because they are being treated like dogs.

Should Civil Servants be removed +new ones hired after 5 years?

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