Should Civil Servants be removed +new ones hired after 5 years?

NotCuteHoor

The Civil Service/Regulators in Ireland have hardly covered themselves in glory.
Why should they kept on after the appalling activities they turned a blind eye to?

If new Civil Servants were hired in their place it would make the Civil Service more inclusive and give everyone a chance at it. This would give everyone a chance at having a job and even a pension.

Currently, the Government Departments have done little about the unemployment crisis. This would give them an interest in it as they would be facing the dole queues (not jobs for life) after 5 years. They would want to tackle the unemployment problem not ignore it. I figure this is a great way of making the Civil Service more inclusive.

I think this would change voting patterns in Ireland . They might not vote the same way after their term in the Civil Service was up. Currently, I doubt they would vote for radical change in any area as many want the Status Quo retained. They definitely would have an interest in the Unemployment Crisis then and vote for change. The large numbers working in Councils/Government Departments/various quangos impact on the elections and they are more inclined to vote other sectors and would be voting for maintaining the status quo keeping the current system from radical change. But if they were no longer employed in these sectors they probably would not be voting for the Status Quo.

spurious

Retraining everyone every five years? Have you thought this through?

GeorgeBailey

Fool proof idea there OP. Absolutely fool-proof.

Boombastic

You wouldn't get the same caliber of people we have now

Nwm2

I am no friend of the public sector, but this must be the dumbest idea ever.

NotCuteHoor

Why not make it 7 years then? Retraining is not an issue if you are in private sector. Why should it be for those in Public Sector?

IM0

but then there wouldnt be jobs for the boys







my boys :mad:

stevenmu

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

This would give everyone a chance at having a job and even a pension.

Except the current civil servants apparently, what are they supposed to do when they lose their jobs?

Boombastic

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Why not make it 7 years then? Retraining is not an issue if you are in private sector. Why should it be for those in Public Sector?

Because they hate change and the unions would have a lot to say...

donvito99

stevenmu wrote: »

what are they supposed to do when they lose their jobs?

Join the dole queue like the rest of us.

stevenmu

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Why not make it 7 years then? Retraining is not an issue if you are in private sector.

Yes, it very much is an issue in the private sector. Have you ever heard of any private sector company just letting go all it's current staff and hiring an entirely new bunch of people? How would any of them know what to do?

NotCuteHoor

Irish ferries springs to mind. Irish ferries let go 600 workers of whom many were Irish/British in 2004. They then recruited again and brought in new workers. Are you saying that such a thing is acceptable for private sector workers but not public sector workers?

Lando Griffin

I had to ring a the Civil Service the other week.
They answered my questions promptly and professionally.
They forwarded me all the info I needed, and when I rang back to seek more help the original person wasn't able to take my call but he colleague was made fully aware of my needs.
Brilliant fast reliable service form Maura and Cathleen in the I have to say.

Boombastic

Lando Griffin wrote: »

I had to ring a the Civil Service the other week.
They answered my questions promptly and professionally.
They forwarded me all the info I needed, and when I rang back to seek more help the original person wasn't able to take my call but he colleague was made fully aware of my needs.
Brilliant fast reliable service form Maura and Cathleen I have to say.

I rang them last week, the didn't answer the phone, maybe they haven't been trained up in it yet in that department

frank reynolds

OP, dont be ridiculous.

IM0

Lando Griffin wrote: »

I had to ring a the Civil Service the other week.
They answered my questions promptly and professionally.
They forwarded me all the info I needed, and when I rang back to seek more help the original person wasn't able to take my call but he colleague was made fully aware of my needs.
Brilliant fast reliable service form Maura and Cathleen in the I have to say.

thank you dearie, your cheque is in the post xx

Dravokivich

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Currently, the Government Departments have done little about the unemployment crisis. This would give them an interest in it as they would be facing the dole queues (not jobs for life) after 5 years. They would want to tackle the unemployment problem not ignore it. I figure this is a great way of making the Civil Service more inclusive.

If such a thing was to be implemented, it'll be the next governments problem to deal with and chastised for not resolving, due to the inaction of the previous government.

Typical FF behaviour, that there.

enigmatical

They need a lot more transparency and accountability across the board but this suggestion is absolutely ridiculous.

It simply wouldn't work at all.

To be honest, I've never found the civil servants anything other than professional. It's the system they work in that's a mess.

Sergeant

All important decisions regarding the workings of the State should be carried out using Boards.ie polls and thejournal.ie voting buttons.

Dravokivich

Sergeant wrote: »

All important decisions regarding the workings of the State should be carried out using Boards.ie polls and thejournal.ie voting buttons.

Along with debates hosted by Joe Duffy and Adrian Kennedy.

uch

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Irish ferries springs to mind. Irish ferries let go 600 workers of whom many were Irish/British in 2004. They then recruited again and brought in new workers. Are you saying that such a thing is acceptable for private sector workers but not public sector workers?

But did you take an Irish Ferries journey in the aftermath of that ? pure hell for months

OldGoat

Counter proposal.

Employ "Nation Administrators" for life. Elected by college vote under remit to appoint from the best/most knowledgable in the fields of Labour, Finance, National administration, International Relations, Judicial, Trade, Bread&Circuses.

Ooooh, and one overarching Comptroler with the power of veto but without the power of...errrmm... whatever the opposite of veto is..

Without the political infighting and constant reinventing of the wheel every 4 years the ability to plan longterm stratagies might achieve something useful.

Freddy Smelly

replace civil servants and politicians with a super computer to balance the books and run the country without corruption

frank reynolds

Freddy Smelly wrote: »

replace civil servants and politicians with a super computer to balance the books and run the country without corruption

so, what about the ordinary joe-soap civil servant who has to work, day in and day out in the corrupt environment? they have to put up with the sh!t on a daily basis, and it's way closer to the bone on the inside than from sitting on your computer coming up with "plans" such as this one.

it will continue to run like this forever more. there wont be change.

is it just petty jealousy of the employed that has you starting a thread like this OP?

arybvtcw0eolkf

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

The Civil Service/Regulators in Ireland have hardly covered themselves in glory.
Why should they kept on after the appalling activities they turned a blind eye to?

If new Civil Servants were hired in their place it would make the Civil Service more inclusive and give everyone a chance at it. This would give everyone a chance at having a job and even a pension.

Currently, the Government Departments have done little about the unemployment crisis. This would give them an interest in it as they would be facing the dole queues (not jobs for life) after 5 years. They would want to tackle the unemployment problem not ignore it. I figure this is a great way of making the Civil Service more inclusive.

I think this would change voting patterns in Ireland . They might not vote the same way after their term in the Civil Service was up. Currently, I doubt they would vote for radical change in any area as many want the Status Quo retained. They definitely would have an interest in the Unemployment Crisis then and vote for change. The large numbers working in Councils/Government Departments/various quangos impact on the elections and they are more inclined to vote other sectors and would be voting for maintaining the status quo keeping the current system from radical change. But if they were no longer employed in these sectors they probably would not be voting for the Status Quo.

Status Quo is the only bit of this mad cap post I like ~ they were a great band in their day.. All that rubbish you posted before 'Status Quo' is just madness.

Nwm2

Karlie Dry Ruffian wrote: »

Status Quo is the only bit of this mad cap post I like ~ they were a great band in their day.. All that rubbish you posted before 'Status Quo' is just madness.

Also, Madness were my favorite band of the '80s.

Bannasidhe

Nwm2 wrote: »

Also, Madness were my favorite band of the '80s.

Never really a fan of the Quo as it just seemed to be the same dadada da da da every track but Madness. Yup. Good band.

OP - all civil servants? Ok...sure who needs experience any way...

**Vai**

Can this even be classed as an idea? There should be another word. Im sure theres something in German.

enda1

You can not hold the position of Secretary General in one department for more than 7 years. So it already exists in one aspect.

OldGoat

OldGoat wrote: »

Counter proposal.

Employ "Nation Administrators" for life.

Don't be appointing anyone for life!!

SEPT 23 1989

the civil servants in the Dept of Finance should to removed to the Joy

boombang

I think the principle of what the OP is suggesting isn't incorrect, just that it is practically a non-runner due to the costs of retraining and the loss of expertise.

However, I think there is a serious problem of dead wood from what I can see. I think that serving staff should be required to reapply for their own post every three years or so and compete against new applicants in an open competition. They should be automatically get a pass to the interview stage and they will have the edge of experience over new entrants. However, the threat of not getting re-hired would keep people on their toes. Furthermore, it would allow the public service drop the under-performers that I have seen clog up the system like cholesterol.

Sofa King Great

In order to replace all the civil servants a similar number of experienced people would have to leave their jobs in the private sector who would be replaced by a mixture of others from the public and private sectors.

Lets say there are 200,000 civil servants. In order to fill the jobs say 400,000 people in the pivate sector move job too.

That is 600,000 leaving parties in one year. The pubs wuold be rammed.

The publicans always win!

SHOVELLER

Clerical officers should be encouraged, as part of their PMDS, to move to other sections once every 4 years. Having the same person in the same section for longer than a decade is no good for anyone.

This might happen if HR were not so toothless.

truebluesac

Must say Rediculous idea . Not all civil servants make decisions or brought the country down . Notball heads of departments ran their deparments as corrupt sections hidding all the secrets and lies .

Would ya like a paramedic nurses doctors or firefighter saving your kids with less than 5 years experience coming to your aid . Like wise would ya get on a plane knowing that the guys up front had little or no experience between them ?

Cause everyone in the civil or public sector brought the contry to its knees and not the public sector bankers and developers with the currupt politicians in their pocket now was it .

woodoo

Our public service is the best in the world. You should be ringing up the odd time just to tell them how grateful you are for them.

Bullseye1

What expertise? You'd swear they were NASA scientists.

wendell borton

What we need is a good 'old Stalinist purge to sort the p.s. higher ups. Then hire some intelligent, decent people with a sense of duty in the mold of tk Whitaker.

Sheep Shagger

truebluesac wrote: »

Cause everyone in the civil or public sector brought the contry to its knees and not the public sector bankers and developers with the currupt politicians in their pocket now was it .

Even before the **** hit the fan I think most people recognised we dont (or didn't) have a civil service that's fit for purpose. It's nothing to do with the downturn (that shouldn't be the only reason why state spending is reviewed).

There's a lot of duplication/wastage that could be scrapped, unfortunately that would mean job cuts but the state shouldn't keep offices/departments open just for the sake of it (specifically talking about the number of local councils and quangos that add no value to anyone).

truebluesac

Of course it needs reform . And i am all for reform in the right way .

Nobody cared what was happening in the public service while the money was rolling in and everyone in the country had money . My bro work on a building site as a labourer cleaning and was pulling at least a grand a week for pushing that brum . We all had money to splash and we didnt care about the public service infact we gave out if we were more than 20 mins in the passport or tax offices taxing our flash new cars or just before our lavish holidays . But now that the attention has been refocused and few have money . the honest hard working public servants are being painted with the same brush as the lying ciniving CU*TS that brought us all to our knees .

Change for the better but not change for the sake of change or to be seen to be doing somthing

Sheep Shagger

Have said it before, reform can be done without touching a single nurse, gard or fire fighter.

Put all civil /public servants on €50k or less aside for a moment, then do a root and branch review of anyone on more than €50k, that's where the problem lies.

People whose salaries are now out of sync after incremental bonuses (nothing to do with performance), admin pen pushers with no real purpose and plain old deadwood.

Sadly some of these folk have become accustomed to a lifestyle (one they should never had considering the unskilled nature of their work), they clearly won't want to give up this lifestyle easily but it's the frontline staff paying for the wastage by way of low pay/rubbish working conditions .

Acacia

Seriously, the anti-civil service, anti-dole, anti-whatever threads on AH just get stupider and stupider...

Addle

I presume you mean senior civil servants?

Most competitions for jobs in the service are open to all.
You should have applied when you had the opportunity!
With the embargo, there's minimum opportunities for the vast majority now.

Claregirl

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

This would give everyone a chance at having a job and even a pension.

Sign me up straight away a pension after 5 years :D:D Beats the miserable 12K after 40 years

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

Currently, the Government Departments have done little about the unemployment crisis. This would give them an interest in it as they would be facing the dole queues (not jobs for life) after 5 years. They would want to tackle the unemployment problem not ignore it.

Seriously what can a civil servant do in relation to the unemployment crisis - this is Government failure not civil service. Austerity has left people with no money to spend how can any economy create jobs with no money

NotCuteHoor wrote: »

I think this would change voting patterns in Ireland .

This one gave me the biggest laugh you honestly think 33,000 Civil Servants can change the outcome of an election have you not seen what FG have done so far to the Civil Service?? FG is and always has been anti Civil & Public Service.

Perhaps a more sensible suggestion would be anyone on 80K+ is placed on a temporary contract then get Michael O'Leary in to review and decide who stays and who goes Or maybe even do a review on the now multiple layers of management in the Health Board HSE:rolleyes:

.jacksparrow.

I still don't understand how you expect people to care about a job and work hard and have pride when they know its impossible to get sacked.

No wonder there is people giving everyone in the public sector a bad name.

Claregirl

Addle wrote: »

You should have applied when you had the opportunity!
With the embargo, there's minimum opportunities for the vast majority now.

Whatever about the embargo the extra hours gained in Haddington Rd has also done away with a large number of permanent positions across the civil / public service.

Addle

I'm a low grade civil servant and I had a meeting with a bank official today who couldn't believe the amount that is taken from my wages as a pension contribution-an obligatory deduction.
If I paid the same amount into a low risk pension policy with a private fund, I'd have a much better return.
So don't start on about pensions! We pay well for them! Or at least anyone who was hired after April 1994 does.

Addle

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I still don't understand how you expect people to care about a job and work hard and have pride when they know its impossible to get sacked.

No wonder there is people giving everyone in the public sector a bad name.

I'm from a small enough town, and I know of 3 people from my home town who have been sacked from the service.
It does happen.

Claregirl

Anyone working in public / civil service know all about the deadwood and find it extremely frustrating not only to be tarred with the same brush but having to cope with the extra workload to make up for the slackers - if someone is not performing there are mechanisms in place to deal with them - Management is the problem here it's too "difficult" to deal with wasters so they're moved or promoted or in some cases ignored in case it reflects badly on the manager.

I've also come across managers in my time earning in excess of 80K a year who cause more problems than they solve, cannot make a decision and are frankly an embarrassment to the workers they represent at meetings.

MOC88

boombang wrote: »

I think the principle of what the OP is suggesting isn't incorrect, just that it is practically a non-runner due to the costs of retraining and the loss of expertise.

However, I think there is a serious problem of dead wood from what I can see. I think that serving staff should be required to reapply for their own post every three years or so and compete against new applicants in an open competition. They should be automatically get a pass to the interview stage and they will have the edge of experience over new entrants. However, the threat of not getting re-hired would keep people on their toes. Furthermore, it would allow the public service drop the under-performers that I have seen clog up the system like cholesterol.

This, but maybe 5 years

mikemac1

Have dealt with the staff in Revenue many times and never gotten anything less then superb service. Fair play, thumbs up.
PAYE Anytime is also a credit to them.

Welfare staff on the other hand talked down to me and were not efficient at all.
I thought I was taking the money from her purse!!

OP, you talk about civil servants as if they are all the same. Like your office, your college class, your sports team and your friends some are legends and some would hang ya.

Your plan doesn't separate anyway