Is Communism the way forward..

Jonny7 · 01-07-2013 10:49PM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Ask the central and south Americans. Tens of thousands murdered and tortured by regimes and death squads under the auspices of Uncle Sam.

That's foreign policy from the Cold War era.

Capitalism is an economic system. Capitalist society is any country which has adopted that model, i.e. basically everyone, yes, Russia, Iraq, etc

Karl Stein · 01-07-2013 10:52PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

That's foreign policy from the Cold War era.

So what? Does that make all that torture and murder and toppling democratically elected governments okay does it?

Did you ever hear of the Chicago Boys?

Read Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism' and you'll get an idea of how Capitalism can wreck people's lives.

Manach · 01-07-2013 10:59PM

Given the popularity of the Atheist forum, we are halfway there.

A Primal Nut · 01-07-2013 11:08PM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

So what? Does that make all that torture and murder and toppling democratically elected governments okay does it?

Did you ever hear of the Chicago Boys?

Read Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism' and you'll get an idea of how Capitalism can wreck people's lives.

I don't think I need to give examples of how Communism can wreck people's lives (Pol Pot forcing a whole population to work the fields all their lives is one example) but anyway in all the examples in that book its corrupt governments that are at fault. Many capitalists simply believe government should have less power, communists believe they should have more power.

Corporations don't commit genocide, governments do.

Augmerson · 01-07-2013 11:16PM

There has never been a true Communist country. The USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba, Warsaw Pact etc were all State Capitalist. They paid lip service to the ideals of Communism whilst savagely repressing any and all attempts by workers to express themselves or gather in their interests.

Communism will never exist anyway as long as Capitalist countries exist. The Communist state will expend its lifetime trying to repel attacks, covert or overt, militarily or economically, from Capitalist countries. It's either spread the revolution across the entire planet or be crushed by Capitalists who fear workers seizing the methods of production for themselves and deciding who gets what based on who needs what most.

My name is URL · 01-07-2013 11:21PM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

So what? Does that make all that torture and murder and toppling democratically elected governments okay does it?

Did you ever hear of the Chicago Boys?

Read Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism' and you'll get an idea of how Capitalism can wreck people's lives.

For every Klein there are a hudred academics who have shown the problems which can and do exist in other systems of economics and governance.

You don't need to jump out of a ship when the rudder only needs adjusting.

No system is ever going to work anyway. The fact any system does seem to work and become utterly depended upon by certain groups is testament to how they are all destined to fail. People put faith in a particular way of living life.. and then

life changes

.

Jonny7 · 01-07-2013 11:26PM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

So what? Does that make all that torture and murder and toppling democratically elected governments okay does it?

Capitalism is an economic system. It's not a blueprint for toppling governments and implementing death squads, that is up to the government not the economic system.

You are getting confused between the two.

As an economic system it's widely regarded as superior to the Marxist (Communist) system. In the end it's the main reason why the West "won" the Cold War - pure economics.

Karl Stein · 01-07-2013 11:31PM

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Many capitalists simply believe government should have less power

In your dreams. Less power to tax them perhaps. Capitalists love the privileges bestowed upon them by the state and government. Socialised cost of infrastructure, policing, graduates etc. So called Capitalists love how the state enforces patents and copyrights, how it sets up laws that minimise their risks and maximises their rewards.

Corporations don't commit genocide, governments do.

Ah yes, the non existent hermetically sealed boxes where we pretend that corporations and governments don't go hand in glove.

You do know that corporations are creations of government don't you?

See: United Fruit and Guatemala.

Karl Stein · 01-07-2013 11:37PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

Capitalism is an economic system. It's not a blueprint for toppling governments and implementing death squads, that is up to the government not the economic system.

You are getting confused between the two.

I'm confusing the two? Here's the question you asked.

Jonny7 wrote: »

ookkaay, so which unalienable rights has capitalist society destroyed?

The US is primarily a 'Capitalist society' (your term not mine) and I showed how that Capitalist society wreaked havoc and was complicit in torture in murder.

As an economic system it's widely regarded as superior to the Marxist (Communist) system. In the end it's the main reason why the West "won" the Cold War - pure economics.

So borrowing trillions and pumping it into a massive Military Industrial Complex is Capitalism is it?

Interesting.

bogwalrus · 01-07-2013 11:49PM

I always thought housing estates and apartment blocks should be run like mini communes. Then you would have a sort of quasi communist cluster inside a larger capitalist cell that was all very democratic. This way its the community and not the individual that is being "selfish".

IM0 · 01-07-2013 11:56PM

WumBuster wrote: »

yes, but i think the previous system used in USSR was flawed on many levels and was not real communism. Capitalist society only gives rise uneven class structures, wealth distribution and poverty.

I think capitalism will die out once the worlds major religions lose influence.

what do you mean by that? and what do you think the relationship between them is?

IM0 · 01-07-2013 11:59PM

bogwalrus wrote: »

I always thought housing estates and apartment blocks should be run like mini communes. Then you would have a sort of quasi communist cluster inside a larger capitalist cell that was all very democratic. This way its the community and not the individual that is being "selfish".

our estate growing up was a bit like that. there were people [residents themselves] who did 'stuff' in the estate and organised things, and would ask the other residents what they thought and what should be done about something

darlett · 02-07-2013 12:01AM

Was the OP really banned for his opening post being politically naive/odd or is it a previously banned member with a familiar IP address?

emo72 · 02-07-2013 12:05AM

well i thought we lived under capitalism. but that all stopped when banks were not permitted to fail. since then everything is ****ed.

endacl · 02-07-2013 12:15AM

I haf ver funny communist joke for all my boardski comrades!

Q: What potato say to other potato?

A: Premise of joke impossible. Who haf two potato?!?

Original joke is beetroot. I make funny for Irish!

Jonny7 · 02-07-2013 12:21AM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

The US is primarily a 'Capitalist society' (your term not mine) and I showed how that Capitalist society wreaked havoc and was complicit in torture in murder.

You are still misunderstanding my point..

The above is to do with a government decision not the economic system.

99% of countries are "capitalist societies". You don't blame the invasion of Kuwait by (capitalistic) Iraq on laissez faire.

I was addressing the below

And only in one place has the destruction of man's rights under Communism been surpassed - and that is the destruction of man's rights in the capitalist society.

Just makes no sense. We're all capitalist societies.

The reason we are all capitalist societies is because communism as an ideology and as an economic model has clearly failed.

Karl Stein · 02-07-2013 12:29AM

Jonny7 wrote: »

The above is to do with a government decision not the economic system.

The government gets its power from the economic system. You cannot separate the two. They go hand in glove.

The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies to flourish is called the US Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_L._Friedman

Jonny7 · 02-07-2013 12:50AM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

The government gets its power from the economic system. You cannot separate the two. They go hand in glove.

The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies to flourish is called the US Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps.

No offense, but that is one of the most stupid effing quotes I've ever read.

Ikea must be profusely thanking the Swedish military for their global brand.

Clandestine · 02-07-2013 12:53AM

endacl wrote: »

I haf ver funny communist joke for all my boardski comrades!

Q: What potato say to other potato?

A: Premise of joke impossible. Who haf two potato?!?

Original joke is beetroot. I make funny for Irish!

One day, hear knockings on door.
Man ask "Who is?"
"Is potato man, I come around to give free potato"
Man is very excite and opens door.
Is not potato man, is secret police to take man Siberia.

Karl Stein · 02-07-2013 01:00AM

Jonny7 wrote: »

No offense, but that is one of the most stupid effing quotes I've ever read.

The point stands. The economic system and the state/government are symbiotic.

Trying to pretend otherwise is bullshit.

endacl · 02-07-2013 01:17AM

Clandestine wrote: »

One day, hear knockings on door.
Man ask "Who is?"
"Is potato man, I come around to give free potato"
Man is very excite and opens door.
Is not potato man, is secret police to take man Siberia.

That not funny. That happen. I was excite man.

Ravelleman · 02-07-2013 01:35AM

Jonny7 wrote: »

No offense, but that is one of the most stupid effing quotes I've ever read.

Ikea must be profusely thanking the Swedish military for their global brand.

Read some of Herbert Marcuse's material. You might find it worthwhile. Honestly.

Cody Pomeray · 02-07-2013 11:55AM

Jonny7 wrote: »

ookkaay, so which unalienable rights has capitalist society destroyed?

I have never mentioned unalienable rights. There are occasions when it is desirable and legitimate to with-hold an individual's natural rights - removing him from his right to liberty during a Garda investigation for example.

But when you remove one or more of an individual's natural rights, you must do so sparingly, and with a strong lawful excuse, e.g. in the interests of law and order, for example.

Now our version of capitalism is an economic basket case that requires - and I mean requires - some men to live in poverty and unemployment. Western capitalism, that is to say consumer-corporate capitalism, simply cannot function unless there are poor people who are denied access to employment or resources. In other words, capitalism is an economic model that revolves around lifeboats. It recognizes that for the exchange to be successful, there must be those in lifeboats, and there must be others in the water.

This is an anathema to man's natural right to freedom and equality as a birthright, it flies completely in the face of the economic rights indispensable for the dignity of each individual. As bad as communism is, communism does not deny this right in such a random and a guaranteed manner.

Renegade Mechanic · 02-07-2013 12:03PM

Socialism, by nature, gives much increased power to it's leaders.

Do you really want the sh*theads in Dublin to have more power than they do?

Ush1 · 02-07-2013 12:05PM

Let robots run the country, they will always make the correct choice.

Jonny7 · 02-07-2013 12:08PM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

The point stands. The economic system and the state/government are symbiotic.

Trying to pretend otherwise is bullshit.

Of course they are symbiotic, what is wrong with that?

Unless you have decided capitalism is inherently "evil" or something, it's just the best economic tool a country has.

Jonny7 · 02-07-2013 12:13PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Now our version of capitalism is an economic basket case that requires - and I mean requires - some men to live in poverty and unemployment.

It doesn't "require"'. There isn't yet a system which 100% eliminates poverty, most would argue that is simply not possible because of the migration of people.

There is no such thing as "full employment".

Right now, in this country, you can be too lazy to get out of bed and work, yet you can get paid for that, get rent allowance, free medical - you can literally exist off the state. The ability of the state to be able to support people like that is because of it's economic capabilities.

Again, no system is perfect - but overall the capitalist model is the best we have

02-07-2013 12:17PM

Every system has its problems and contradiction, so which system has the least amount of problems and contradiction and the least amout of constraints on human freedom.

Communism is too id logical for me and also I simple do not believer it works.

I think a combined capitalist/socialist system works best.

Cody Pomeray · 02-07-2013 12:54PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

It doesn't "require"'.

Yes it does. Capitalism wouldn't function without unemployment. There would be economic mayhem, strikes and wage inflation if there were no pool of unemployed, i.e. the 'reserve army of labour'.

Similarly, capitalism needs a rich-poor divide. There simply cannot be equality. Because capitalism depends on labour who are forced to work for their wages, there must be an underclass of people who do not and cannot own their own property or their own productive capacities. A class divide is the oxygen which capitalism needs before it even gets out of bed.

Capitalism goes even further. It requires that the poorest people on the planet are locked into those economic backwaters where they have found themselves. It is the self-annointed responsibility of capitalist governments to beat incomers out of the lifeboat and keep the crowds in the water. Sometimes, we will let them into our lifeboat and give them dignity when we recognize that they are "one of us" and deserving of being saved.

Look, we all enjoy the capitalist model. We are the ones in the lifeboats. We should simply have the courage to at least admit our position. Anyone who thinks that capitalism is an economic model where everyone can be free and comfortable is, frankly, an idiot with his head in the sand.

laoch na mona · 02-07-2013 01:55PM

since no one seems willing to give anarchism a shot id say socialism is the only viable alternative

Is Communism the way forward..

Comments